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So I have a player who wants to craft all his items, I dont have a problem with it.
What I have a problem with is how easy it is to mastercraft items, so we are starting 2nd level and he easily has +10 so he can take 10 and make a mastercraft item check with no problems.
(the real arguement is over taking his starting gold and making an adamantine item and im telling him he doesnt have access to the gas forges needed to smelt the metal)
Why is it so easy to mastercraft items and no listed rules about crafting with Adamantium
And I dont even want to get started on crafting magic items
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At level 2 the character should have "about" 1000g wealth everything included. Meaning the only adamantite item he would be capable of making is some ammunition, and I hardly think a few adamantite arrows or shuriken is game breaking.
Unless for some reason you are giving the player access to 3000+ gold they should be nowhere NEAR capable of making said weapon.
But to answer why is it so easy, Because the PC's are the heros. They are extraordinary individuals, and even if they CAN make the item, it will still take them a LONG time to make it. So I think it is pretty justified.
They told me that it costs them one third so 3K would be 1K
They are starting with 1200
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At level 2 the character should have "about" 1000g wealth everything included. Meaning the only adamantite item he would be capable of making is some ammunition, and I hardly think a few adamantite arrows or shuriken is game breaking.
Unless for some reason you are giving the player access to 3000+ gold they should be nowhere NEAR capable of making said weapon.
You only pay 1/3 the market on raw materials for crafting. He only needs 1k + 1/3 base weapon price to make the item. The part past the + is what puts this past his capabilities.
I would probably tell him "no, but I'll try to work in an opportunity by mid level 4."
EDIT: Since they have 200g more than normal he could pull it off, though it violates my personal preference of "no more than half on one item."
Remember that it takes a lot of time to craft. This can cause problems if the players start above level one and the crafter says he's crafted everything, which is why sometimes DM's allow no more than 1/2 or 1/3 of his starting gold to go towards crafting.
When you are actually in game though, the problem is rather that it takes too much time to craft non-magical items. A suit of armor or a masterwork weapon can take weeks or months to smith - which is a problem in most campaigns.
And there's simply no way he can afford a weapon for 3000 on level 2 unless you have given out unusually large amounts of starting gold. Also, while it's not more difficult to craft adamantine than normal steel, it takes more time. If he takes 10 every week with a +10 modifier, it takes an average of 77 weeks to craft it (10 weeks for the masterwork component, 67.5 for the weapon component). If you want to give him a year and a half down-time you may do so, but in many campaigns it's simply not possible.
And there's simply no way he can afford a weapon for 3000 on level 2 unless you have given out unusually large amounts of starting gold. Also, while it's not more difficult to craft adamantine than normal steel, it takes more time. If he takes 10 every week with a +10 modifier, it takes an average of 77 weeks to craft it (10 weeks for the masterwork component, 67.5 for the weapon component). If you want to give him a year and a half down-time you may do so, but in many campaigns it's simply not possible.
Where did you get the time it takes?
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At level 2 the character should have "about" 1000g wealth everything included. Meaning the only adamantite item he would be capable of making is some ammunition, and I hardly think a few adamantite arrows or shuriken is game breaking.
Unless for some reason you are giving the player access to 3000+ gold they should be nowhere NEAR capable of making said weapon.
You only pay 1/3 the market on raw materials for crafting. He only needs 1k + 1/3 base weapon price to make the item. The part past the + is what puts this past his capabilities.
I would probably tell him "no, but I'll try to work in an opportunity by mid level 4."
EDIT: Since they have 200g more than normal he could pull it off, though it violates my personal preference of "no more than half on one item."
Ahhh I see. Forgot about that little bit.
That said, 1200g is more than enough to make a decent masterwork weapon at least. But they player should keep in mind that that will be nearly 100% of his budget, and if he wants to buy backup weapons or armor he is going to be SOL.
Look at the rules under the Craft skill. Assuming he takes 10, he gets a 20 result. That's used to compute the week's work. It'll take quite a while to finish because the item's price is quite high.
In theory he shouldn't have 1200 gp in money. He should have most of it on items (found in virtual adventures i.e.) and a small ammount (prolly a 10%) of it in coins.
To get all the money he should sell the equipment for 1/2 the price, which stinks, so you can put all the limitations you want to the initial money he can use for Crafting.
Where did you get the time it takes?
Should be right there in the Skill description. Crafting items takes a LONG time. The only fast way to craft is have a really high Craft modifier and increase the DC by 10 or 20. You only Craft your skill check total multiplied by the DC to craft in SILVER PIECES.
So a masterwork item, that's 300gp. Transfer it to silver, that's 3,000 silver pieces. He has +10? And what is the DC? If the DC is 15 than, in ONE WEEK, if he Takes 10, he's made 300 SP worth...his character has 9 more weeks to go. If it's DC 20, then he makes 400sp per week when Taking 10, so he should be done in 7 weeks and a few days.
Which is why it's best to:
A) Hire multiple craftsmen to "Aid Another" on the check. Be reasonable, though. It makes no sense for 10 men to craft one sword, but it does make sense 10 men to craft one suit of full plate.
B) Increase the DC by multiples of 10. It may be harder to beat the DC, but when you succeed, you multiply that new DC by the check, meaning faster time. Say he increases the DC 15 to 25. If he rolls a 15, 25 x 25 is 500 SP. He'll be done in 6 weeks.
The problem is a faulty assumption on the part of both player and GM.
Sorry, not trying to be a flametroll (TM), just stating the issue.
Starting wealth is not 'I have 1200gp and I go do stuff with it'. That 1200gp represents what he did with his life up to that point to get his equipment. It doesn't represent plunking down gold for raw materials, it is an encapsulation of time/effort/luck/history. The GP don't represent buying his leather armor, his MW longsword, his backpack, etc. It represents the resources of his life thus far, and how his time and effort were spent.
As such, there is no 'crafting starting equipment'. Yes, you can say you crafted them as part of your background story, that's fine. But that 1200gp would buy a MW longsword for 325gp. That 325gp doesn't represent buying the sword in a store, it represents a portion of his life up till now invested in getting the sword. It could have been an adventure with his big brother, and his big brother gave him the MW sword when he found a +1 long sword. Or it could have been him working hard for a summer over a hot forge after hours at the smithy he was apprenticed at, practicing to learn to craft weapons and make his first MW weapon. Or it could represent the time and effort he put into scamming a widow on the edge of town so she'd give him her dear departed husbands sword.
Either way, that starting wealth is an abstract 'this is what I collected in my life' fund, not a 'A genie appeared and dropped 1200gp in coins in my lap to buy junk'. If he wants to craft things, he'll have to do it in game, and take the down time.
I have to disagree with MDT. There's nothing wrong with allowing a character to craft his/her starting items. Every skill point in one of the crafts is one less in perception, stealth, diplomacy, disable device, spellcraft, and other more commonly useful skills.
The character who starts with crafted items has been doing just that, crafting. While other characters were "gathering" items, he/she was making them. If a player is willing to start the game with points in craft skills then that player should start the game enjoying the benefits.
"I spent the last year gathering scraps to forge this sword" is just a valid as "I inherited this sword from my father."
@OP: MW weapons are obsolete after the first few levels, and well within WBL to purchase from 2nd on. At what level do you think it would be more appropriate to be able to make them? The truth is that it's your starting gold that's the problem, not the crafting rules.
I have to disagree with MDT. There's nothing wrong with allowing a character to craft his/her starting items. Every skill point in one of the crafts is one less in perception, stealth, diplomacy, disable device, spellcraft, and other more commonly useful skills.
The character who starts with crafted items has been doing just that, crafting. While other characters were "gathering" items, he/she was making them. If a player is willing to start the game with points in craft skills then that player should start the game enjoying the benefits.
"I spent the last year gathering scraps to forge this sword" is just a valid as "I inherited this sword from my father."
@OP: MW weapons are obsolete after the first few levels, and well within WBL to purchase from 2nd on. At what level do you think it would be more appropriate to be able to make them? The truth is that it's your starting gold that's the problem, not the crafting rules.
The problem with that point of view, Jake, is that you haven't really taken it to the next step. Yes, at 1st level, you can 'craft' all your own stuff and start with 3x the amount of equipment as someone else.
Now, as you point out, MW weapons are obsolete at 5th level. So, what happens if when starting at a higher level, the character has 'Craft Magic Arms and Armament' and/or 'Craft wonderous item', etc and has only put in spellcraft points? Now he can start with 3x the magic items the same way 'Oh, I crafted these myself'.
I have to disagree with MDT. There's nothing wrong with allowing a character to craft his/her starting items. Every skill point in one of the crafts is one less in perception, stealth, diplomacy, disable device, spellcraft, and other more commonly useful skills.
The character who starts with crafted items has been doing just that, crafting. While other characters were "gathering" items, he/she was making them. If a player is willing to start the game with points in craft skills then that player should start the game enjoying the benefits.
"I spent the last year gathering scraps to forge this sword" is just a valid as "I inherited this sword from my father."
@OP: MW weapons are obsolete after the first few levels, and well within WBL to purchase from 2nd on. At what level do you think it would be more appropriate to be able to make them? The truth is that it's your starting gold that's the problem, not the crafting rules.
The problem with that point of view, Jake, is that you haven't really taken it to the next step. Yes, at 1st level, you can 'craft' all your own stuff and start with 3x the amount of equipment as someone else.
Now, as you point out, MW weapons are obsolete at 5th level. So, what happens if when starting at a higher level, the character has 'Craft Magic Arms and Armament' and/or 'Craft wonderous item', etc and has only put in spellcraft points? Now he can start with 3x the magic items the same way 'Oh, I crafted these myself'.
Where's the problem exactly? Because if they're not allowed to begin with crafted material they themselves crafted because they have the skill/feats, then one can easily just say,"Alright, fine. I want my level's worth of gp in cash, no items or equipment. Now my character is going to use that to make the items I need. Done."
Whether they start with it, or they start with just the gold and spend, yet, more time crafting what they could've just started with to begin with makes no difference either way.
The problem with that point of view, Jake, is that you haven't really taken it to the next step. Yes, at 1st level, you can 'craft' all your own stuff and start with 3x the amount of equipment as someone else.
Now, as you point out, MW weapons are obsolete at 5th level. So, what happens if when starting at a higher level, the character has 'Craft Magic Arms and Armament' and/or 'Craft wonderous item', etc and has only put in spellcraft points? Now he can start with 3x the magic items the same way 'Oh, I crafted these myself'.
Well, I understand the concern, but I think in actually play it's overstated. A first level character will generally not start with 3 times the equipment. Crafting your longsword only saves 10 gp and you need to spend 5 of that on Artisan's tools and have a +1 Intelligence bonus to boot. Not many martial characters do. All that for a 5 gp savings. And it still cost you a skill point that you could have used elsewhere.
Even if you build an expensive item, like a falchion (75gp), you still only save 45 gp (after buying the tools) and you still need a 12 Int.
Crafting armor might net you an extra point of AC, but, again, at the cost of a skill point and either putting points into Int for the bonus or spending 55gp for MW tools, which isn't much of a deal. Everyone else will catch up on the next level, anyway.
As for higher level starts, the theoretical best you could do is twice the magic items for a single category of magic items per feat expended, not three times.
As far as magic weapons and armor go, you might end up with two +X weapons instead of one, but it still costs a feat and points in spellcraft (or the relevant skill in the case of Master Craftsmen, which means burning yet another feat).
In practice, allowing "pre-game" crafting really doesn't affect the game much, if at all.
Edit: Again, I really do understand the concern. It always seems "odd" for one character to start with more "stuff" than another. But the cost in skill points and feats, as well as the experience I've had allowing it, has lead me to the conclusion that it works just fine. YMMV, of course.
*sigh*
So, both of you think the following situation is just perfectly fine?
Wizard 10th level. 62,000 gold pieces. Takes craft arms and armor, takes craft ring, craft wondrous item. Maxes out Spellcraft (as is pretty normal for any wizard). Makes all his own magic items before the game starts. He's got 186,000 gp worth of magic equipment (the same as a
14th level character!).
Fighter, 10th level. 62,000 gold pieces. To keep up with the wizard, he has to put at least 5 skill points in each of Craft(Armor), Craft(Weapons), Craft(Jewelry) and Craft(Tailor). That's every skill point he gets for 10 levels (not including intelligence). Then he's got to spend four feats on craft master to match the wizard. And even then, he probably can't, because he can't take 10 with just 5 ranks in each craft skill. If he does spend all those skill points and feats though, he can also have 186,000 gp worth of magic equipment.
Now, the fighter has the feats to spend all those. The rogue doesn't, nor does the cleric or the druid or the paladin. No matter how you slice it, allowing crafting for starting equipment breaks the system (those 10th level characters with 14th level equipment blow your CR's out of the water). And it will only get worse over time.
The biggest issue is it forces everyone to do the same thing, or else they're at level 10 equipment while the wizard is at 14th level and he's walking all over everything and basically taking up the spotlight all the time, because he can with that sort of equipment. Heck, he can outfight the fighter (Belt of +6 to all physical stats) with that kind of resource allocation.
I have to agree with mdt. The starting gold is more of the starting market value of the items you have. Look at it from a different perspective: if the character are in a regular campaign leveling up normally and they take the time to craft their items, do you as DM give them extra items and gold to make up for the savings? If the +1 long sword only cost 1,000 gold to create, do you make up for the character's loss of 1,000 gold?
I understand where everyone is coming from, and at low levels it may not make much of a difference. What about at higher levels? A suit of +3 dwarven plate mail would cost the character 4500 (magic) + 5500 (dwarven plate) instead of the 15,500 saving the character 5,500 gold. That's significant at level 9 (the soonest he could do this).
*sigh*
So, both of you think the following situation is just perfectly fine?
Wizard 10th level. 62,000 gold pieces. Takes craft arms and armor, takes craft ring, craft wondrous item. Maxes out Spellcraft (as is pretty normal for any wizard). Makes all his own magic items before the game starts. He's got 186,000 gp worth of magic equipment (the same as a
14th level character!).Fighter, 10th level. 62,000 gold pieces. To keep up with the wizard, he has to put at least 5 skill points in each of Craft(Armor), Craft(Weapons), Craft(Jewelry) and Craft(Tailor). That's every skill point he gets for 10 levels (not including intelligence). Then he's got to spend four feats on craft master to match the wizard. And even then, he probably can't, because he can't take 10 with just 5 ranks in each craft skill. If he does spend all those skill points and feats though, he can also have 186,000 gp worth of magic equipment.
Now, the fighter has the feats to spend all those. The rogue doesn't, nor does the cleric or the druid or the paladin. No matter how you slice it, allowing crafting for starting equipment breaks the system (those 10th level characters with 14th level equipment blow your CR's out of the water). And it will only get worse over time.
The biggest issue is it forces everyone to do the same thing, or else they're at level 10 equipment while the wizard is at 14th level and he's walking all over everything and basically taking up the spotlight all the time, because he can with that sort of equipment. Heck, he can outfight the fighter (Belt of +6 to all physical stats) with that kind of resource allocation.
*sigh* Back at ya.
You clearly didn't bother to read my post, perhaps it was too long, so here's the short form.
1. Crafting Magic Items costs HALF, not a third. Crafting non-magical items costs a third. Again, just so we're clear, crafting magical items costs half plus full cost of any expensive components.
2.To get a full doubling of his gold, he/she would have to spend it on items he has the Crafting feats for, and ONLY on items he has the Crafting feats for, nothing else. No rods, no staves, no wands. And nothing that has an expensive component. Your 10th level wizard has, at the absolute very most, the wealth of a character 2.5 levels above what he/she normally would have. At absolute best.
3. Doing so costs the wizard three feats. Assuming the character uses the 10th level metamagic bonus feat, the 9th level feat, and the 7th level feat, the 10th level Wizard has, at absolute best, the wealth of a character 2.5 levels higher, and the feats of a character 5 levels lower.
4. Yes, I'm okay with that.
3. Doing so costs the wizard three feats. Assuming the character uses the 10th level metamagic bonus feat, the 9th level feat, and the 7th level feat, the 10th level Wizard has, at absolute best, the wealth of a character 2.5 levels higher, and the feats of a character 5 levels lower.
4. Yes, I'm okay with that.
I think the problem is more pronounced with single type crafting casters though. If you pick up Craft Wondrous, especially as a spell caster, you can effectively buy back that one feat you gave up immediately. If you can Craft Wondrous, you are going to make as a Wizard a Headband of Int +6. Normal price, 32000, discounted 16000, but you are down a feat. Except now you can craft a Dark Blue Rhomboid Ioun Stone for 5000, and get Alertness, giving you a feat back. And you have still saved 11000gp. Another 2500 and Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone gives you a +1 insight bonus to AC, which pretty well mimics the feat Dodge. You are still 8500gp in the black. Cloak of Resistance +4 only costs you another 8000gp for a +4 bonus to all your saves, leaving you still 500 gp ahead of the Wizard who instead gets that ONE extra non-crafting feat. [You could argue the Cloak of Resistance +4 is equal to a Cloak +2 + three feats, but considering value for cost, I think most players are going to pick up at least a Cloak +3 at this level anyway].
And now I've still got 30500 gp left to play with.
Maybe you just see this as Wizards being easily breakable at later levels, but really, I'm not even trying here and taking that one Crafting Feat at character creation is a better decision than ANY single other feat for the character, making it a no-brainer.
TL;DR version: Starting wealth already helps characters at later levels build more optimized characters. Letting them get MORE gp at starting character magic mart exacerbates this problem.
As always, its your game, but if you already have difficulties with a mix of players some of which are optimizers and some which aren't, this makes the divide that much wider.
Oh boy
THIS conversation again.
(stuff)
+1
3. Doing so costs the wizard three feats. Assuming the character uses the 10th level metamagic bonus feat, the 9th level feat, and the 7th level feat, the 10th level Wizard has, at absolute best, the wealth of a character 2.5 levels higher, and the feats of a character 5 levels lower.
1. Having that boost on equipment is far better than the benefits of any other feat. And taking in mind that some feats are limited to metamagic feats, it is even worse, I would use the 3rd level bonus metamagic feat for Woundrous items instead of a normal feat btw.
I had two players remaking their characters and equipment at 10th level, they used metamagic creation feats, without any limit the benefits were so high that made no sense. Finally they used a strict limit of 15% of the budget and even then the feats were worth it.
2. That's not how the game works. If you play those 10 levels, only a portion of the treasure is money that can be used to create magic items, otherwise you should sell your magic items for 1/2 their price in order to get the money, it allows you to customize your equipment, but doesn't increase your total wealth.
Is there any reason to ignore that fact when making a high level character? No.
3. Rules.
Pag. 400 of the Core RuleBook
Table 12–4 can also be used to budget gear for
characters starting above 1st level, such as a new
character created to replace a dead one. Characters
should spend no more than half their total wealth on
any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that
are built after 1st level should spend no more than
25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and
protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on
disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and
10% on ordinary gear and coins.
No mention about using the initial wealth on crafting items, or increasing the budget when crafting items, just that 10% on coins (that could be used to craft items, I would use more than 10% because it doesn't seem to take some things into account).
It is ok to start with crafted stuff, but there is a limit on how it affects your wealth, as would happen if you play those levels.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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3. Doing so costs the wizard three feats. Assuming the character uses the 10th level metamagic bonus feat, the 9th level feat, and the 7th level feat, the 10th level Wizard has, at absolute best, the wealth of a character 2.5 levels higher, and the feats of a character 5 levels lower.
4. Yes, I'm okay with that.
I think the problem is more pronounced with single type crafting casters though. If you pick up Craft Wondrous, especially as a spell caster, you can effectively buy back that one feat you gave up immediately. If you can Craft Wondrous, you are going to make as a Wizard a Headband of Int +6. Normal price, 32000, discounted 16000, but you are down a feat. Except now you can craft a Dark Blue Rhomboid Ioun Stone for 5000, and get Alertness, giving you a feat back. And you have still saved 11000gp. Another 2500 and Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone gives you a +1 insight bonus to AC, which pretty well mimics the feat Dodge. You are still 8500gp in the black. Cloak of Resistance +4 only costs you another 8000gp for a +4 bonus to all your saves, leaving you still 500 gp ahead of the Wizard who instead gets that ONE extra non-crafting feat. [You could argue the Cloak of Resistance +4 is equal to a Cloak +2 + three feats, but considering value for cost, I think most players are going to pick up at least a Cloak +3 at this level anyway].
And now I've still got 30500 gp left to play with.
Maybe you just see this as Wizards being easily breakable at later levels, but really, I'm not even trying here and taking that one Crafting Feat at character creation is a better decision than ANY single other feat for the character, making it a no-brainer.
TL;DR version: Starting wealth already helps characters at later levels build more optimized characters. Letting them get MORE gp at starting character magic mart exacerbates this problem.
As always, its your game, but if you already have difficulties with a mix of players some of which are optimizers and some which aren't,...
But most Wondrous Items scale up in cost so quickly, the crafter only ends up +1 or so ahead of the non-crafter, which is not that crazy.
The non-crafter wizard buys a +4 headband instead, for 16,000 (the +6 for you would be 18,000, btw). He skips the Alertness Ioun stone because he get's it from his familiar. Grabs the Ioun Stone for 5,000, and then rounds things out with a Cloak of Resistance +3 for 9,000.
Both characters spent about the same amount of money (you actually spent 3,500 more) Your Int is 2 higher than his and your saves are all 1 higher, and maybe you have a bonded item. So yeah, you have an advantage. Not an overwhelming one, not something that's going to break a game, certainly not something that's going to let you walk through encounters without breaking a sweat, or completely invalidate the fighter or rogue in the group.
I agree with MDT in that the intent was that you could NOT craft during character creation.
I also agree with MyNameIsJake in that there isn't really anything wrong with letting people craft things during character creation (and I allow it in my games for characters past 1st level).
*sigh* Back at ya.
You clearly didn't bother to read my post, perhaps it was too long, so here's the short form.
1. Crafting Magic Items costs HALF, not a third. Crafting non-magical items costs a third. Again, just so we're clear, crafting magical items costs half plus full cost of any expensive components.
I read it. Just missed this point. After looking, you're right. Another friday of dental work contributing to tiredness. I still feel that effectively doubling the wizards starting funds (as pointed out above, one single feat, craft wondrous, get's him everything but a magic weapon since he can't wear armor, and his bonded item he can enchant without a feat, so he basically with one feat can double his starting wealth in magic items) is borked. Sue me. The poor fighter or rogue wanting the same thing has to blow 3-4 feats and a ton of skill points for something the wizard (or sorcerer) can do for minimal investment.
If you're going to be giving people freebies in backstory, you might as well be egalitarian and allow this to everyone. If the party wizard crafted his own grot, then you can say he also crafted the rest of the party's grot in backstory for whatever reason makes sense: The rogue rescued his familiar when it climbed up a tree, the fighter saved him from a mugging, the cleric saved him when he was mugged another time and guilt-tripped the robbers into giving back his spellbooks. Gives a reason for party togetherness and lets everyone be on equal footing.
After that? The people with the crafting feats get to use them, but you need to either set up time to do this, or bus in the convenient crafting homonculi from Eberron, or come up with some variety of mage guild which lets everyone trade skill and time. This last is actually a sensible way around the hideous feat bloat that is item crafting. You want a magic ring but all you make is potions? Fine. Make a bunch of potions for the guild and you get your ring. Meanwhile, the guy with Forge Ring can make the rings he loves to make but can then trade them to get the potions he wants.
It also explains how the guy with Master Craftsman Carpet Weaving can get a magic sword without some elaborate casuistry about how he wove a tapestry with the image of a sword and then reached into it and pulled out the mighty flaming longsword known as "Rugburn."
Easier to say that he makes flying carpets and everyone likes flying carpets and if he wants a magic sword, he trades a carpet to the magic swordmaker.
I read it. Just missed this point. After looking, you're right. Another friday of dental work contributing to tiredness.
I can relate. Just had my second root canal (on the same tooth!). We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Heh, I don't allow adamantium IMC.
Instead, the PCs can get an adamantium coating for their weapons (think "silversheen") that can be used to bypass DR and the like, but doesn't infer the hardness of adamantium onto the tool/weapon itself.
That way I don't have to deal with an adamantium toothpick being used to cut through a stone wall. >D
Not exactly the OP's question, since he was concerned about the crafting cost and not the material used. But the crafting time, cost, and so on usually dissuade my PCs from doing much crafting. I do have a loremaster IMC now that has a bunch of crafting feats. And a recent cross-country trip took almost three weeks so he did some of his crafting during that travel. The thing that bothers me the most is when the player wants to know if he can go back and "use up" some of the spare time to make a scroll or brew a potion. I usually just say "yes", but what I'd like to say is, "Do you have a time machine?" :-/
Again, I think people are missing one simple point here.
Whether or not one allows a PC to start with crafted (that they used up precious skill points and feats for!) items or not really doesn't matter.
Because, again, a PC has every right to NOT choose his level's worth of items and take the gp instead. Then, when the game starts, the PC can take those very same craft points and feats and say,"Alright, my character is going off to craft what he needs now."
Either way, the PC is getting what they want. And why not? Honestly, if you were DMing someone from 1st-level and they acquired their item creation feats and skill points and managed to get +2.5 levels worth of their items by the time they gained 10th-level, how is that any DIFFERENT than someone starting their character at 10th-level and starting with their own crafted items? After all, the backstory is this character was doing something between levels 1-10, part of which was probably crafting his own items!
I don't know if it's in the Pathfinder RPG or the Game Mastery Guide, but I know for a fact it's in the Dungeon Master's Guide, under NPCs. It specifically states if an NPC has access to an item creation feat, they only use up a portion of the market value instead of the full market value, since they can craft it themselves. It's decreased even lower if it's a charged item.
It's the same with PCs.
I really just skimmed the posts, so I do not know if I am repeating other people who are in turn repeating others, but here goes.
Crafting during character creation of a 1st level character should generally not be allowed, and may not be allowed by the rules. Your character's career does not begin til you sit down at that 1st gaming session with him. All those wonderful skills and feats that he may have are a part of the training to become level one and there has been no time to put them to practical use.
Now, starting a character past level one has it's own separate rules and guidelines when it comes to gear and wealth, including the suggested wealth by level chart and what percentage of that should be in which item. So even if you do not want to use the percentage bit, just remember that the 1200 gold you are giving the player to start with is supposed to cover everything he owns at that point. So if he really spends the whole thing one making one masterwork item, he will own nothing else. That means no mount, no rations, no clothing. And also, no tools to craft anything with.
In the end, if you do not mind him making the item, it may just be better to set the starting level at three instead of two for your campaign and toss in some more gold. And make sure the other players have the chance to do something with their skills so that they do not get jealous of or upset with that player.
But most Wondrous Items scale up in cost so quickly, the crafter only ends up +1 or so ahead of the non-crafter, which is not that crazy.
The non-crafter wizard buys a +4 headband instead, for 16,000 (the +6 for you would be 18,000, btw). He skips the Alertness Ioun stone because he get's it from his familiar. Grabs the Ioun Stone for 5,000, and then rounds things out with a Cloak of Resistance +3 for 9,000.Both characters spent about the same amount of money (you actually spent 3,500 more) Your Int is 2 higher than his and your saves are all 1 higher, and maybe you have a bonded item. So yeah, you have an advantage. Not an overwhelming one, not something that's going to break a game, certainly not something that's going to let you walk through encounters without breaking a sweat, or completely invalidate the fighter or rogue in the group.
Good catch on my math there.
My point was more that this rule really helps out optimizers, and if your party is a mix of optimizers/non-optimizers, it only makes the gap that much wider. If you figure an optimizer is already squeezing an extra +1/+2 in most things over a non-optimizer (and possibly making better spell choices), this picks him up to +2 or +3 better. If everyone optimizes, it evens out, or if your roleplayers don't mind be a little behind your rollplayers, its also a non-issue.
Because, again, a PC has every right to NOT choose his level's worth of items and take the gp instead. Then, when the game starts, the PC can take those very same craft points and feats and say,"Alright, my character is going off to craft what he needs now."
And a GM has every right to have him die naked, because the campaign starts off in a tight spot and not where he can spend weeks crafting up items. If you are running an AP/Paizo module this is relatively likely, as they seem to like to kick things off with a bang :)
I've found it useful when starting a game to have all the characters have a visit from Dame Fortune, an encounter with the old witch at the well, or some other appropriate beginning-of-the-fairytale-quest figure who will give them a magical gift of some sort, sometimes a stat bonus, sometimes a magic item, sometimes something else. Whatever it is is based on how untwinked their character is. An uber-optimized character will get something which is basically just a plot token with an incredibly minor effect. A somewhat less optimal character will get something nicer. A character with a large flaw, either through poor design or purposefully gimped for roleplaying will get something really nice, which will not remove the flaw but will give them a strength in some other area that will give them something fun to do other than be crippled.
If any of the optimizers complain about this skewing the point balance, I pull aside the GM screen enough to explain that it's precisely the unoptimized characters who get more of a DM benny. This sometimes even encourages players to not optimize their characters for future games.
I have to disagree with MDT. There's nothing wrong with allowing a character to craft his/her starting items. Every skill point in one of the crafts is one less in perception, stealth, diplomacy, disable device, spellcraft, and other more commonly useful skills.
The character who starts with crafted items has been doing just that, crafting. While other characters were "gathering" items, he/she was making them. If a player is willing to start the game with points in craft skills then that player should start the game enjoying the benefits.
"I spent the last year gathering scraps to forge this sword" is just a valid as "I inherited this sword from my father."
@OP: MW weapons are obsolete after the first few levels, and well within WBL to purchase from 2nd on. At what level do you think it would be more appropriate to be able to make them? The truth is that it's your starting gold that's the problem, not the crafting rules.
The problem with that point of view, Jake, is that you haven't really taken it to the next step. Yes, at 1st level, you can 'craft' all your own stuff and start with 3x the amount of equipment as someone else.
Now, as you point out, MW weapons are obsolete at 5th level. So, what happens if when starting at a higher level, the character has 'Craft Magic Arms and Armament' and/or 'Craft wonderous item', etc and has only put in spellcraft points? Now he can start with 3x the magic items the same way 'Oh, I crafted these myself'.
I see no problem with this. They spent the skill points and feats to do as such. Some games don't give a lot of down time to do things so at least give them the starting items; and if they can use those skills in down time latter one, they did earn the capability to do so anyway.
*sigh* Back at ya.
You clearly didn't bother to read my post, perhaps it was too long, so here's the short form.
1. Crafting Magic Items costs HALF, not a third. Crafting non-magical items costs a third. Again, just so we're clear, crafting magical items costs half plus full cost of any expensive components.
I read it. Just missed this point. After looking, you're right. Another friday of dental work contributing to tiredness. I still feel that effectively doubling the wizards starting funds (as pointed out above, one single feat, craft wondrous, get's him everything but a magic weapon since he can't wear armor, and his bonded item he can enchant without a feat, so he basically with one feat can double his starting wealth in magic items) is borked. Sue me. The poor fighter or rogue wanting the same thing has to blow 3-4 feats and a ton of skill points for something the wizard (or sorcerer) can do for minimal investment.
Guess rods and rings mean nothing to you?
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The more I think about this the more I am beginning to turn to the other camp...
A character will be afforded so much "wealth" at character creation. This will rarely if ever simply come in the form of gold in a pouch which can be converted into the components for magical items.
As I think about it in game nearly 75% of the treasure I hand out is... just that, treasure that has its own worth and if the player doesn't want it then they are going to sell it whenever they can at half price.
Thus meaning that a wizard starting at level 2 with 1200g wealth should in reality not have 1200g cash but instead somewhere maybe around 200g in coins. If they want to trade in for cold hard cash then they are going to have to sell back most of their possessions, again at half price. Then if they want to craft magical items with that gold then the item itself would cost the normal 1/2. Meaning that the player would break even with anyone else and might as well just use that starting gold to purchase the item anyway.
Of course mundane items pose a slightly different scale but I personally don't think the player saving 16.666^% (The difference between the sellback price and the cost create) on an item is entirely bad deal, esp seeing as how they invested skill ranks for that purpose.
My suggestion would be to tell him he has X amount of gold coins, and Y amount of material wealth purchased at normal cost. If he wants to go about crafting then so be it.
Guess rods and rings mean nothing to you?
Nope, not really. Not in the context of this conversation. Oh boo hoo, I had to pay full price for two objects, I can only wear two rings, after all. Since I had 16,000gp to start with, I can craft 25,000gp worth of wondrous items, pay full price for a couple of rings, and save a feat. I don't see any downside to that from a player point of view. Of course, I've just blown the WBL curve out of the water, since I'm two CRs ahead of the curve.
If I'm going to be using a lot of rods, then I might pick that up as a feat, but if I'm only going to use one or two, I might just pay full for them. Again, I'm saving so much on everything else, it just breaks my heart to pay full price. Worse case scenario I'm losing 3 feats and doubling my starting funds. Oh woe is me, what ever shall I do? That darn GM made me lose 3 feats to get 32,000gp worth of items when I only had 16,000gp! That's so MEAN!
/sarcasm
I see no problem with this. They spent the skill points and feats to do as such. Some games don't give a lot of down time to do things so at least give them the starting items; and if they can use those skills in down time latter one, they did earn the capability to do so anyway.
Yes they spent the points but it's not a sacrifice. They haven't invested anything yet. I don't have a problem with someone spending skill points and feats along with the time necessary to craft items. That is the price they pay for saving money. When they start at a higher level they don't feel the sacrifice they only feel the benefits. That's an issue for me.
Starting play with crafted items is not sacrificing, it's starting play with more power. I build all my characters, even those above level 1, as organic characters. I expect my players to do the same thing. I don't have any problems with players crafting items. I have a problem with higher level characters starting play with crafted items but they didn't really put the effort into crafting. Sure they spent a few points but did they get ambushed because they didn't put those points into Perception? Did they have to wait longer in combat because they took Craft Wondrous Item instead of Improved Initiative? Did they actually spend the 1 day per 1,000gp of crafting while the rest of the group went off to do a mini adventure?
When characters are built above level 1, they are already at a huge advantage. They have exactly what they need and the builds are easier to optimize because they haven't had to deal with that pesky leveling up process. To give them additional gear on top of that puts the character above the point he should be power-wise.
This is all from my personal experience as both a player and a DM who used to allow for crafting items when creating characters above level 1. It really did unbalance the game in favor of the crafter. I no longer allow it.
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Starting play with crafted items is not sacrificing, it's starting play with more power. I build all my characters, even those above level 1, as organic characters. I expect my players to do the same thing.
What about crafting is non-organic? There is nothing from keeping a player from creating a backstory, plot hooks, or anything else like that when they craft. At level on I can understand as due to the fact that you have no skills as a level 0 character.
You can only craft for 8 hours a day max regardless, and if the PC has ranks invested in the craft skill then that would mean by extension they would have spent time doing said craft. The PC is going to be starting usually with no less than 18 years under his belt, that is plenty of time to get some crafting out of the way in downtime.Would you impose this same expectation on an alchemist making alchemical items or potions? What about a wizard with scribe scroll? Or how about an Artificer better yet, the whole class is based around crafting.
Starting play with crafted items is not sacrificing, it's starting play with more power. I build all my characters, even those above level 1, as organic characters. I expect my players to do the same thing.What about crafting is non-organic? There is nothing from keeping a player from creating a backstory, plot hooks, or anything else like that when they craft. At level on I can understand as due to the fact that you have no skills as a level 0 character.
You can only craft for 8 hours a day max regardless, and if the PC has ranks invested in the craft skill then that would mean by extension they would have spent time doing said craft. The PC is going to be starting usually with no less than 18 years under his belt, that is plenty of time to get some crafting out of the way in downtime.Would you impose this same expectation on an alchemist making alchemical items or potions? What about a wizard with scribe scroll? Or how about an Artificer better yet, the whole class is based around crafting.
I don't use back story as an excuse to get more for less. I don't allow that in my games either. Starting with extra gear unbalances the system in favor of classes that are already on the higher end of the power curve.
There is no difference between an alchemist using his brew potion feats or a wizard using his scribe scroll feats. Yes, it's part of the class. I might be willing to make a concession so long as it's not overboard. It's something that I would have to discuss with the player. A few potions or scrolls (one shot items) is very different from getting several thousand gold worth of wondrous items.
I don't actually have any artificers in my games so the issue will never pop up. I don't run Eberron and won't be porting the class over.
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There is no difference between an alchemist using his brew potion feats or a wizard using his scribe scroll feats. Yes, it's part of the class. I might be willing to make a concession so long as it's not overboard. It's something that I would have to discuss with the player. A few potions or scrolls (one shot items) is very different from getting several thousand gold worth of wondrous items.
I don't actually have any artificers in my games so the issue will never pop up. I don't run Eberron and won't be porting the class over.
I suppose that is mostly fair. This is very much part of a why I don't like starting games or PCs off at levels higher than 1.
Also, as a slight derail it is worth noting that Tome of Secrets (An amazingly well done 3PP book) did a redo of artificer that is balanced and flavored quite differently, it is really worth a look. D20pfsrd if you are interested. They make for really interesting characters, you don't need to be playing ebberon for them to add some panache to your game.
Also, as a slight derail it is worth noting that Tome of Secrets (An amazingly well done 3PP book) did a redo of artificer that is balanced and flavored quite differently, it is really worth a look. D20pfsrd if you are interested. They make for really interesting characters, you don't need to be playing ebberon for them to add some panache to your game.
I have the Tome of Secrets and I didn't really like the artificer in there. I think the idea was neat but something about it just didn't click with me. I can't really put my finger on it, something just seemed off. If one of my players wants to play one, I could reevaluate the class. As of right now, I don't have to worry about it.
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Re: Crafting at Character Creation - I usually assign my players' characters their equipment. Equipment (especially magic equipment) is part of the DM's job, or at least it is to me.
Then again, I almost never count out the gp value of said treasure, I just award it at the start of the game so we can get to playing faster.
Joey, it appears you have two issues you need to deal with.
1) A player telling you, the GM, the rules. You need to understand the rules that you allow them to use. This correlates to point number 2:
2) You are the GM. If you say "no crafting before the campaign," then that's the rule. You need to enforce this rule, because if you don't, the player(s) will know they can walk all over you.
Now, personally, I would say "You get 1200gp of equipment. If you want to say you crafted it, fine. If you try to use the crafting rules to get more stuff, your character will suddenly find himself ambushed by rabid vampires, and you'll need to go through the exercise of character creation again. Only this time, you're gonna roll 3d6. In order. It's your choice."