I am looking to make a gunman who uses a rifle, two revolvers, and a scattergun (with the vital strike line of feats).
What new rules in the APG (and old rules in the core book) lend themselves particularly well to gunmen?
Sort of a side answer but there was some sort of gun based class I think in a recent Kobold Quarterly. I don't know any details though since I did not really read it (guns in fantasy games are not my cup of tea)
Hope that helps a bit a least ...
Not really. Our group only has and uses the Core Rulebook, the Bestiary, the GameMastery Guide, and the Advanced Player's Guide.
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Not really. Our group only has and uses the Core Rulebook, the Bestiary, the GameMastery Guide, and the Advanced Player's Guide.Sort of a side answer but there was some sort of gun based class I think in a recent Kobold Quarterly. I don't know any details though since I did not really read it (guns in fantasy games are not my cup of tea)
Hope that helps a bit a least ...
Really? Wow ...
I can see mainly staying with 'core' Paizo produced rule books, but there is some great stuff out there from some top quality Pathfinder third part paublishers. I would absolutely consider some of the Pathfinder stuff from Kobold Quarterly or Super Genius Games for instance.
Anyway, sorry I could not help more - like I said, guns in fantasy games are not really my thing.
Good luck!
What about the campaign setting? Is that where you are getting your gun rules from? The gunslinger feat in the campaign setting (located with the description of alkenstar) is pretty useful, letting you use firearms in melee without provoking attacks of opportunity.
And I too mourn for your loss of the core only group, but such is life i guess.
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Kobold Quarterly 13 is the one you're looking for, IIRC. Arquebusser class and gun rules.
I don't see much of a way for you to really do much of a gunman, especially with several guns without using some other source book. Best you could manage otherwise would be a hand crossbow for a pistol and repeating crossbow as a rifle.
What about the campaign setting? Is that where you are getting your gun rules from? The gunslinger feat in the campaign setting (located with the description of alkenstar) is pretty useful, letting you use firearms in melee without provoking attacks of opportunity.
And I too mourn for your loss of the core only group, but such is life i guess.
Well, considering we are playing Pathfinder, have access to the v3.5 Campaign Setting book, and are pulling the gun rules from it, I guess that book is allowed.
I saw that feat too, but I wasn't terribly impressed. What can be gained form shooting a guy in melee when I can be shooting him from outside charge range?
I built a Gunman as an NPC using rogue levels, Combat Expertise and Improved Feint with Skill Focus Bluff. It let him make ranged sneak attacks every round and more than made up for the relatively low power of firearms in the Pathfinder Setting. You sacrifice your move but if the tank can keep the enemy occupied you can throw out serious damage.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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My best advice to you is to forget it and go with a bow. I've built straight fighter gunslingers, rogue gunslingers, ranger gunslingers, and all sorts of wacky multi-class gunslingers, too. I eventually had to face the fact that the feat investment is just too big to make them anything like effective. As with any ranged build, your damage potential depends on your ability to fire as many shots per round as possible. This you can do with Rapid Shot, Multishot, and Two-Weapon Fighting; however, it can only be done with revolvers, and by the time it starts to get decent, you're emptying both cylinders in 1.5 rounds. Then you must reload both, which takes up actions that you're then not using to spread lead. Super cool but super sucky mechanically.
Rifles are also good for extreme long-range sniping (which is generally only about as useful as Far Shot, which is to say, about 1 out of every 30 or so encounters). Any sort of single-handed firearm is primarily useful for a quick ranged attack on an enemy who's just outside of movement or charge range.
But... if guns are your thing... I'd recommend just taking EWP firearms and rocking out your scattergun in the surprise round. The good news is that this still benefits from Vital Strike. It occurs to me that this tactic could be handy for a switch-hitter type ranger in the mid ranges (between longbow and reach weapon).
Forget about em'? What if I use a scattergun with Greater Vital Strike and the exploding dice rule?
Wouldn't that make em' pretty powerful?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Perhaps a better way to put it would have been to caution you against trying to make a one-trick-pony "gun guy." There are some neat things you can do with guns... using a scattergun in that way is one of them. But ultimately you're going to be faced with the problem of reloading, in which case it's better to have the gun, fire the 1 or 2 shots you get, then drop it and charge in with whatever hurt the rest of your feats can buy. Guns are a good add-on or surprise round action for a melee-focused character, but it's hella hard to make a decent ranged build around them. Think Blackbeard or Solomon Kane instead of the Man With No Name.
Perhaps a better way to put it would have been to caution you against trying to make a one-trick-pony "gun guy." There are some neat things you can do with guns... using a scattergun in that way is one of them. But ultimately you're going to be faced with the problem of reloading, in which case it's better to have the gun, fire the 1 or 2 shots you get, then drop it and charge in with whatever hurt the rest of your feats can buy. Guns are a good add-on or surprise round action for a melee-focused character, but it's hella hard to make a decent ranged build around them. Think Blackbeard or Solomon Kane instead of the Man With No Name.
Thanks. I'll certainly take that into consideration.
My suggestion would be the following:
Use Half elf alternate racial trait to gain proficiency in firearms. Go with alchemist as your class.
Multiple reasons for this:
1. You don't need full BAB since you won't get multiple shots in a round -- Medium is good enough to make a great vital strike/deadly aim shot each round.
2. The ranged feats will help with your bombs -- point blank shot and precise shot are good for you either way.
3. The mutagen means that you can fall back on other options (indeed the extracts, poison usage and bombs help with this too). Since you will be burning feats to be good with the firearms having class options that help you be good at other things is of course great.
Point blank mastery (feat) will keep you from provoking when firing in melee (which can happen at times). The catch off guard feat could allow you to also use the firearm as a club in the case that someone closes on you (and would be a fairly iconic gunslinger sort of thing).
My suggestion would be the following:
Use Half elf alternate racial trait to gain proficiency in firearms. Go with alchemist as your class.
Multiple reasons for this:
1. You don't need full BAB since you won't get multiple shots in a round -- Medium is good enough to make a great vital strike/deadly aim shot each round.
2. The ranged feats will help with your bombs -- point blank shot and precise shot are good for you either way.
3. The mutagen means that you can fall back on other options (indeed the extracts, poison usage and bombs help with this too). Since you will be burning feats to be good with the firearms having class options that help you be good at other things is of course great.Point blank mastery (feat) will keep you from provoking when firing in melee (which can happen at times). The catch off guard feat could allow you to also use the firearm as a club in the case that someone closes on you (and would be a fairly iconic gunslinger sort of thing).
This is something that I have already considered (and still am considering).
Probably the only hold up I have against an alchemist gunslinger is its inability to get Greater Vital Strike. Still, I see your point about the potential versatility and synergy.
I also worry about the bomb ability outshining the gun though. Why use a gun if you have something better?
Bombs are limited use, limited range, and could hit allies, or be the wrong damage type (or simply not enough damage).
Consider the Master Chymist prestige class for better BAB. Since it's a straight shot for an alchemist anyways you don't really lose much (indeed your not gun options are expanded with the mutagens) and gain the full BAB.
The idea behind the alchemist gunslinger is to have expanded options -- the guns are going to do decent damage each round to one target -- on the other rounds you have other stuff to do: Buffing, bombing, mutagen mayhem, etc.
You can full attack with the pistols when needed, get in a good close ranged blast with vital strike and the scattergun, and at range hurt people with the rifle. If you need something specific use specialty bombs (madness, dispelling, stinking cloud, poison bomb, incendiary, etc) so that your bombs become battlefield control instead of just more damage.
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My suggestion would be the following:
Use Half elf alternate racial trait to gain proficiency in firearms. Go with alchemist as your class.
I counter with the suggestion of Gnome with the alternate racial trait of Master Tinker to allow any gun (Or weapon period) you craft yourself. That and the Ranger Favored class option is excellent. Additionally I very much like the Guide Alternate Class option.
As far as new feats go I would personally say that Focused shot should by extension apply to firearms so that isn't bad. On a slightly different note I LOVE Breadth of Experience, +2 to all 10 knowledge skills and can make those and any kind of profession skill you can imagine untrained.
Bombs are limited use, limited range, and could hit allies, or be the wrong damage type (or simply not enough damage).
Consider the Master Chymist prestige class for better BAB. Since it's a straight shot for an alchemist anyways you don't really lose much (indeed your not gun options are expanded with the mutagens) and gain the full BAB.
The idea behind the alchemist gunslinger is to have expanded options -- the guns are going to do decent damage each round to one target -- on the other rounds you have other stuff to do: Buffing, bombing, mutagen mayhem, etc.
You can full attack with the pistols when needed, get in a good close ranged blast with vital strike and the scattergun, and at range hurt people with the rifle. If you need something specific use specialty bombs (madness, dispelling, stinking cloud, poison bomb, incendiary, etc) so that your bombs become battlefield control instead of just more damage.
Sounds appealing.
You could ask the GM to let you use the Crossbow figther archetype for guns, since its desing for one attack per round. Plus there´s a bullrushing trick thats simply gtold for a shotgun user.
Also as a figther you can spends lots of feats in TWF, quick draw and vital stike.
Humbly,
Yawar
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This is a bit of a houserule of sorts but talk to your DM about allowing the firearms to be used in place of the bow for the Arcane Archer.
My wife has done this, using two revolvers, and is an arcane gunslinger instead of arcane archer. Of course she uses twin revolvers but its still a solid option. Also others have said in the past but allowing guns to be used where anything crossbow is related isn't a bad thing. There are some heavy feat lines for crossbow quick loading that I would allow being used as a gun.
Of course the optional rule of exploding dice and extra misfire chances we don't use and instead use just the regular rules. My wife uses guns for flavor alone pretty much and it's never seemed unbalanced to date.
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You need to convince your DM to allow guns to be rapidly reloaded (not the feat) or be semi-automatic with a clip/magazine. Early guns were mainly used 2 in ways. 1, high damage. 2, en masse in armies to cover up slow reloads.
The high damage can be mitigated mostly by Pathfinder's very powerful ranged feats, mainly Deadly Aim. However, the slow reload is the main problem. If you can get guns that are rapidly reloaded, that should solve most of the problem. Of course that opens up that guns > other weapons.
Is there some official list I am unaware of? Or are you referring to my list above?
I am leaning heavily towards the alchemist/master chymist version of the gunman at the moment. Simply having the ability to "do more than shoot people" appeals to me greatly. Furthermore, it will allow me to still work my way up to Greater Vital Strike at 19th-level.
This is a bit of a houserule of sorts but talk to your DM about allowing the firearms to be used in place of the bow for the Arcane Archer.
My wife has done this, using two revolvers, and is an arcane gunslinger instead of arcane archer. Of course she uses twin revolvers but its still a solid option. Also others have said in the past but allowing guns to be used where anything crossbow is related isn't a bad thing. There are some heavy feat lines for crossbow quick loading that I would allow being used as a gun.
Of course the optional rule of exploding dice and extra misfire chances we don't use and instead use just the regular rules. My wife uses guns for flavor alone pretty much and it's never seemed unbalanced to date.
Hey, would you mind posting your wife's character build? My wife is really keen on doing something similar