I just got the APG yesterday, as I am preparing for a Pathfinder session in the coming weeks with some friends, when I stumbled across the Summoner.
I was planning on playing a bard, and thinking about multiclassing beforehand, but it struck me how many things were similar: Both use Charisma as their primary stat, and both function best as support characters.
From what I read, the Summoner is considerably more powerful at higher levels, but the Bard skills used in conjunction with the summons (and in a party of at least 3-4 others) could be a very potent combination.
I haven't decided a race, but half-elf seems like a logical choice considering I could choose two preferred classes and the racial bonus for each class are useful.
Any thoughts, suggestions or concerns?
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I'd be VERY interested if you end up pulling this off.
One thing I'd caution you about, though, is that class levels are more important to the Summoner than even other casters. The hit to your Eidolon and Summon Monster SLAs is HUGE! So, I'd be very careful multiclassing, maybe just one level of Bard to get the class skills?
And yes, half-elf seems like a good race choice. With the Favored Class bonuses in the APG, it's looking like every multiclass character should at least consider the Half-Elf :P
I'd be VERY interested if you end up pulling this off.
One thing I'd caution you about, though, is that class levels are more important to the Summoner than even other casters. The hit to your Eidolon and Summon Monster SLAs is HUGE! So, I'd be very careful multiclassing, maybe just one level of Bard to get the class skills?
Thirded.
Frankly, I'm hard-pressed to think of a character class that's less suited to multi-classing than the Summoner.
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Unlike others here, I am actually in favor of multiclassing a bard.
Ok, now that there have been multiple facepalms, let me tell you why.
Unlike others here, I do not view the bard as a mostly "caster" class. Far from it, actually. I see his spells and choices of spells as an augment to his main abilities, which is singing. Granted, the ability to use his bard song (or performance, lest we offend our dancing brethren) as a move action at lvl 7 is awesome and should be a priority, this is not a necessity.
I am currently playing a lvl 11 character, 7 bard/4 rogue. This character rocks. Between awesome Combat Maneuvers with the whip (take a scorpion-tail whip for damage), sneak attack bonus from the flanking b/c of rogue, and some other feats, this character is capable of hitting for some surprising damage. Granted, I am not a front line fighter, but what I often do in the party is literally round up the mooks and either trip them or off them from behind/flank. (think expeditious retreat and longspear). The bardic performance is added gravy to our party, the limited spell casting is also just gravy.
In your case, I like the idea of augmenting your summoned dudes with bard song, and hitting your eidolan and party members at the same time. The more dudes on the floor getting your +Att/Dam from "inspire courage" the better.
I will agree with everyone who is right now going "...BUT BUT BUT..." about how you are self nerfing your spell casting...but I am not the biggest fan of the bard spell list anyhow, nor for the summoners either for that matter. Use a metamagic feat perhaps to extend your summons, then bard song and help tackle the badguys. Teamwork feats might also be of big help.
I could care less about "Optimizing mah uber bard!", I am more about having fun. My character fits a role, a very specific niche of course, but my party loves having him around (I think).
I believe your concept can work, and work surprisingly well.
I wish you luck sir, and I scoff at those who will poo-poo it.
Thank you everyone for the input. It's given me a few places to start. My chief concern has been the leveling issue. I am hoping that the decreased level of the summons would be mitigated by taking fewer levels of bard, making the character possibly 6 bard/ 14 summoner.
For me, the bard is less valuable for the spells that is casts (of which, I would probably end up taking the healing spells) than the multitude of skills it provides and the ability to buff my allies.
I am willing to forsake godlike power to have greater versatility and to assist my teammates as best as I can.
To both Bomanz and Tsukishijin:
I'd love to see the write-up of both those characters!
I too would love to see your character. Bards are not my favorite class, but I would love to see how a summoner multiclasses. I want to make a sorcerer/summoner so I can have a more blasty version of the summoner. I agree with Austin Morgen about the hit to the eidolon. I don't think that it can't be done, but trying to figure out the balance is tricky.
I think the most important thing though is coming up with a character that is interesting for you to play. I think the bard/summoner sounds pretty interesting so who cares what stats they have?
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Actually he WOULD get Inspire Courage +2 at 5th lvl Bard. Just sayin'. He would have at least 12 rounds of Bardic Performance each day, too...easily enough to last through at least 1, maybe 2 combats per day.
A 5th lvl bard also grants all the +4 spells (eagle's splendor, bull's strength etc.) as well as Heroism, Rage, and some other VERY useful spells.
Granted, your list is pretty short on what can be known, and only 3 lvl 2 spells all day (with high CHA) but still...not totally useless.
Again, looking at spells as a Bards main thing he can do is a fairly limiting character view.
Barb/Sorc over Bard/Summoner
if you going for CHA matches why not Bard/Sorc or Bard/Oracle ?
I have to throw my hat in with the summoner being horrible to multiclass with. I could see 1 level of bard, but not really more. The hits to the eidolon would make him pretty much useless, and, like has been said, if your summons are not the top tier you may as well not use them beyond utility. Overall, I do not think this class combo will work on any kind of even split, since the summoner needs a deep focus to maintain his usefullness and the bard does not provide the awesomeness in the right places to make up for it.
maybe 1 level of summoner to get cheap summon monster I critters that will hang for 10 rounds instead of 1
It's not a question of godlike power, but rather of being effective.
I second that emotion.
Let's see this from the mostly summoner side:
Consider that every bard level you take your eidolon essentially will not level. Think of him as a cohort (though they've made him more and more of the summoner class) that is a good deal of what you bring to the table.
Actually, think of the Eidolon as the star, and the summoner as his sidekick.
The eidolon is the single most important class feature for summoners (especially since the spell-like summon monster ability has been made useless).
Delaying summoner levels for anything else means your Eidolon gets less HP, worse BAB and Saves, and less evolution points (and delayed access to evolutions).
The other thing is the spells for support. Multiclassing with bard means lagging behind with the summoner magic.
And all that for some skill points and lame magic? And that magic is lame if you're using it with such a low caster level in a high-level game. The inspire courage might be nice, but I'd rather have my eidolon get the bonuses from having levels, and if I want anything else, I'll use greater heroism if I want to buff more, or use stuff like spell turning, creeping doom, dominate monster or maze.
When the eidolon is not out then you have your summons. Summons always need to be top tier to be effective beyond possible utility. You will be hard pressed to give up a single level here. Two levels given up halves your effectiveness if not more.
Actually, they're useless as they are now. Once your eidolon is out of the picture, you're screwed, anyway. some summoned critter will not really replace it, no matter how high-level the summoning spell is.
As to healing spells.. at 20th level you're casting a cure moderate or two? In either case you're talking items. Get UMD.
Or, better yet, concentrate on healing the eidolon, and leave healing everyone else in the hand of someone who can make a difference, like a full-time healer class (like paladins, clerics, oracles of life)
Both classes are already jack-of-all-trades like concepts, competent in many fields and master in none (more or less), and if you go and mix them up, you'll end up as a dabbler in everything and competent in nothing.
maybe 1 level of summoner to get cheap summon monster I critters that will hang for 10 rounds instead of 1
Or stick to your class - if it has summoning capabilities, you'll get your 10 rounds by level 10. 10 rounds of powerful critters (like dinosaurs or large elementals), that is, not a pony or dire rat.
Of course the idea of a summoner not summoning the E will likely be hersey on these boards......
Less heresy and more "might as well play a sorcerer or conjurer and not cripple my spell selection"