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The power Fury of the Abyss states: As a swift action, you can give yourself an enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum +1) on melee attacks, melee damage rolls, and combat maneuver checks.
Does this apply to your weapon for the purposes of determining what types of DR it can bypass? From the table in Special Abilities section of the Core Rulebook:
Weapon Enhancement
DR Type Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5
I realize that the power doesn't say your weapon gets the bonus, but this omission might have come from convenience so that they could include the combat maneuver bonus. Thoughts?
No, I'd say this is very different from a weapon enhancement bonus. Unless I'm entirely mistaken, this would *stack* with a weapon's enhancement bonus.
The power Fury of the Abyss states: As a swift action, you can give yourself an enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum +1) on melee attacks, melee damage rolls, and combat maneuver checks.
Does this apply to your weapon for the purposes of determining what types of DR it can bypass? From the table in Special Abilities section of the Core Rulebook:
Weapon Enhancement
DR Type Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5I realize that the power doesn't say your weapon gets the bonus, but this omission might have come from convenience so that they could include the combat maneuver bonus. Thoughts?
If you read the ability closely the weapon is not getting an enhancement bonus, the cleric is, so no on the overcoming different DR from this ability.
There seems to be a disconnect here, but I'm not sure where.
Why are we asking if the enhancement bonus applies to the weapon? Sure, it says "You give yourself..." the enhancement bonus, but if it doesn't apply to your attack then what's it good for? An enhancment to your ability to chew bubblegum?
Of course the enhancement bonus you give yourself is a bonus you can use to attack. It even says it applies to "melee attacks, damage rolls, and CMB rolls".
So, you hve an enhancement bonus that is applied to your attack & damage. That's pretty straight forward. And such an enhancement is exactly what you need to overcome Cold Iron, Silver, Adamantine, and Alignment DR. I don't see anything in the RAW that limits that ability to overcome DR to permanent (as opposed to temporary) enhancement bonus, so for the duration of this ability, your attack has the necessary enhancement to overcome these kinds of DR.
So what is the disconnect? Can someone show me (cite please) the RAW that invalidates anything I've posted? Because, if I've missed something, I'd love to find out what it is so I can correct my misunderstanding. And if I haven't missed anything, then we should have a really easy answer for the OP.
Unless the OP is really only asking whether or not he can use this with melee weapons or if the bonus only applies to natural claws/teeth/etc., in which case, I dunno because I don't have that domain in my core book. If that's the case, then whatever weapons ARE allowed with this domain should certainly bypass the appropriate DRs.
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I understand how you would apply the bonuses and to what, the question was whether the enhancement bonus would extend to the DR's that are bypassed by certain enhancement bonuses. The confusion I had sprung from the wording that says give yourself. If it is assumed that the weapon also gives you an enhancement bonus, then I read it as the two bonuses would not stack, but the higher one would be used for attack and damage rolls, and DR bypass no matter the source.
The disconnect is that under damage reduction, it states:
"Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment."
So, RAW, it matters if the attack bonus is granted to you or to your weapon, as only magic weapons with a sufficient bonus can overcome damage reduction in this special way. This ability, as written, is generally limited to expensive investment associated with a magical enhancement bonus given to a weapon.
RAI also seems to support this by the fact that abilities that grant temporary enhancement bonuses don't convey this extra DR bypass.
I understand how you would apply the bonuses and to what, the question was whether the enhancement bonus would extend to the DR's that are bypassed by certain enhancement bonuses. The confusion I had sprung from the wording that says give yourself. If it is assumed that the weapon also gives you an enhancement bonus, then I read it as the two bonuses would not stack, but the higher one would be used for attack and damage rolls, and DR bypass no matter the source.
Makes sense to me.
If "you give yourself" a big enhancement bonus but you cannot use it to make attacks, then it probably means you're really good at picking your nose and wiping your backside.
So "you give yourself" a big bonus that applies to "melee attacks, damage rolls, and CMB stuff". Sounds like an attack to me.
And the section on DR explicitly states how much enhancement bonus is required to overcome exactly which kinds of DR.
The disconnect is that under damage reduction, it states:
"Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment."
So, RAW, it matters if the attack bonus is granted to you or to your weapon, as only magic weapons with a sufficient bonus can overcome damage reduction in this special way. This ability, as written, is generally limited to expensive investment associated with a magical enhancement bonus given to a weapon.
RAI also seems to support this by the fact that abilities that grant temporary enhancement bonuses don't convey this extra DR bypass.
Whatever you are attacking with is your weapon. It could be a sword, a fist, a claw, a big horn on your nose.
This ability gives you an enhancement bonus to your attacks. Unless there is some more text that limits this, in which case please cite that text here - otherwise, that enhancement bonus goes onto whatever attacks you make with any weapon you use.
Whatever weapon (natural or artificial) you're using, it has an enhancement bonus of +x for the duration of this ability. Period. So if you're attacking with tooth or claw of nose-horn, you get this enhancement bonus. And if this ability affects the sword (or whatever) you hold in your hand, then that sword gets the enhancement bonus.
And if the anhancement bonus is high enough, it overcomes DR as indicated.
I would like to point out that YOU (AvalonXQ) said "magic weapon" but the text you quoted said no such thing. Read your own quote again and don't add any words that aren't there. All the weapon needs is an Enhancement bonus, and that is exactly what the ability in the OP grants.
High enough Enhancement bonus = overcoming certain DR. Period. No requirement for it to be a "magic weapon". No other requirement either. Just Enhancement bonus.
So, as long as the cleric in question is using a weapon that can be affected by this ability, that weapon will overcome the appropriate DR.
There seems to be a disconnect here, but I'm not sure where.
Why are we asking if the enhancement bonus applies to the weapon? Sure, it says "You give yourself..." the enhancement bonus, but if it doesn't apply to your attack then what's it good for? An enhancment to your ability to chew bubblegum?
Of course the enhancement bonus you give yourself is a bonus you can use to attack. It even says it applies to "melee attacks, damage rolls, and CMB rolls".
So, you hve an enhancement bonus that is applied to your attack & damage. That's pretty straight forward. And such an enhancement is exactly what you need to overcome Cold Iron, Silver, Adamantine, and Alignment DR. I don't see anything in the RAW that limits that ability to overcome DR to permanent (as opposed to temporary) enhancement bonus, so for the duration of this ability, your attack has the necessary enhancement to overcome these kinds of DR.
So what is the disconnect? Can someone show me (cite please) the RAW that invalidates anything I've posted? Because, if I've missed something, I'd love to find out what it is so I can correct my misunderstanding. And if I haven't missed anything, then we should have a really easy answer for the OP.
Unless the OP is really only asking whether or not he can use this with melee weapons or if the bonus only applies to natural claws/teeth/etc., in which case, I dunno because I don't have that domain in my core book. If that's the case, then whatever weapons ARE allowed with this domain should certainly bypass the appropriate DRs.
I believe the difference here is in the wording. A +5 magic longsword is strong enough to overcome any DR exept dr/- or epic/bludgeoning/piercing because it is a +5 longsword and the magic in it lets it do that. A longsword with GMW cast on it making it +5 does not. A cleric who gives himself a +5 enhancement bonus while using a standard longsword gets a +5 to hit and damage, but he is not going to overcome DR because the enhancement bonus is on him, not on the weapon. I could see anargument for natural weapons here overcoming DR but I think I would rule it like GMW and it would overcome magic DR but nothing else.
I believe the difference here is in the wording. A +5 magic longsword is strong enough to overcome any DR exept dr/- or epic/bludgeoning/piercing because it is a +5 longsword and the magic in it lets it do that. A longsword with GMW cast on it making it +5 does not. A cleric who gives himself a +5 enhancement bonus while using a standard longsword gets a +5 to hit and damage, but he is not going to overcome DR because the enhancement bonus is on him, not on the weapon. I could see anargument for natural weapons here overcoming DR but I think I would rule it like GMW and it would overcome magic DR but nothing else.
Do you have a RAW cite for that? I don't, so I believe exactly the opposite.
If you spend 18 days, banging on a forge, casting Greater Magic Weapon every day, pouding that steel into a +3 longsword, then it permanently becomes a +3 longsword. It now has a +3 enhancement bonus forever.
If you use this domain power at 6th level to give yourself a +3 enhancement bonus while you wield an ordiray steel longsword it temporarily becomes a +3 longsword. It now has a +3 enhancement bonus (while you wield it) until the ability expires.
For the duration of that ability, both swords are identical weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3.
If you then go hit a monster with these two longswords, and that monster has DR 10/Silver, both of these +3 longswords will overcome that monster's DR equally.
If this is not the case, please show me why it is not. Is there text in the specific domain power that says this is not the case? Is there some RAW I've missed about temporary bonuses?
As a side note, Greater Magic Weapon explitly says that it cannot overcome DR (except Magic), which by inference means that temporary bonuses such as that spell could ordinarily overcome DR, thus necessitating explicit text in this specific case.
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Does it really matter where the magic is coming from? Whether it's stored in the weapon, or springs forth from your bond with your god, the fact of the matter is you are the one making the attack and damage rolls. They went out of their way to say the enhancement bonus DR passing rule does not apply on GMW, but they omitted it here. So either it was intentional, or a mistake. You are entitled to make a GM call on this one, but there is just as much argument for the willful omission of the GMW text as there is for drawing a parallel between the mechanics common to GMW and Fury of the Abyss.
Upon further review, I can think of another reason to word it the way they did: Touch attacks. Clerics make plenty of these and making the subdomain power apply only to a weapon would have excluded the touch attack. So rather than tie it to a weapon, they apply it to the cleric in order to increase its versatility, not prevent DR bypass.
P.S. You're a ninja, Blake.