Eidolon Improved Natural Armor Evolution

[Rellen]

Hey folks, I was wondering if someone could clarify the natural armor evolution for me - possibly because of wishful thinking on my part, lol. Can I take it at 1st level and then again at 6th, or at 5th level and then again at 10th?

The wording says... "This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses."

[mdt]

Rellen wrote:

Hey folks, I was wondering if someone could clarify the natural armor evolution for me - possibly because of wishful thinking on my part, lol. Can I take it at 1st level and then again at 6th, or at 5th level and then again at 10th?

The wording says... "This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses."

It doesn't list a minimum, so it's once per every 5 levels (or fraction thereof). So, 1st, 6th, 11th, 16th.

Remember, you redo your eidelon every time you level, so it's not like you can't take it for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, skip 4th, take it for 5th, take it twice at 6th, etc. Unlike a feat, if you take it at 1st, you don't have to keep it at 2nd and 3rd, you can drop it and pick it back up twice at 6th and not use it at 2nd,3rd,4th and 5th.

[Ravingdork]

I believe the intent was 1st and 6th, though that isn't at all clear from the wording.

[Marik the Grigorian]

mdt wrote:

It doesn't list a minimum, so it's once per every 5 levels (or fraction thereof). So, 1st, 6th, 11th, 16th.

I dont think it was a typo this is a really good evolution and it does not say one per 5, it says once for every five levels the summoner possesses. Just like in so many spell descriptors a fraction counts for nothing

Ex:

PFSDR wrote:

An arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage with no splash damage. For every three caster levels you possess, the acid, unless neutralized, lasts for another round (to a maximum of 6 additional rounds at 18th level), dealing another 2d4 points of damage in each round.

[Rellen]

To my mind the intent was 1st and 6th, which seems fine balance wise +2 AC seems less powerful than pounce for example - by a considerable margin.

That being said I think the wording on the Ability Increase evolution, reinforces the idea that you must be 5th level in order to take it... Please prove me wrong!

"It can only be applied once to an individual ability score, plus 1 additional time for every 6 levels the summoner possesses."

[Zurai]

mdt wrote:

Rellen wrote:

Hey folks, I was wondering if someone could clarify the natural armor evolution for me - possibly because of wishful thinking on my part, lol. Can I take it at 1st level and then again at 6th, or at 5th level and then again at 10th?

The wording says... "This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses."

It doesn't list a minimum, so it's once per every 5 levels (or fraction thereof). So, 1st, 6th, 11th, 16th.

Fractions always round down in Pathfinder, so you don't get the choice to take it until 5th level, at least as the rules are written. I believe the intent was clarified to be similar to the Ability Increase evolutions, so once at 1st and again at 5/10/15/20, but, surprise surprise, actually fixing broken things wasn't a priority when making changes from the final playtest version.

[Marik the Grigorian]

@ Rellen, I think it's cool that you are provoking both side of the issue to be thorough but it seem like a bit of a stretch to think that Improved nat arm progression works just like the ability increase progression when is worded not only in a different manner but, (like ability increase) worded in a specific format that is quite common in the game. It's just to much to consider this both error and coincidence.

But that all as written, if you and group really think it would be better as once plus X/Y go for it, you shouldnt have any trouble get support on the balance issue.

You can still improve AC with the Improved nat arm feat, sheild prof, and various magic items.

Zurai wrote:

I believe the intent was clarified to be similar to the Ability Increase evolutions, so once at 1st and again at 5/10/15/20, but, surprise surprise, actually fixing broken things wasn't a priority when making changes from the final playtest version.

Ive seen a few comments like this on the board today could you tell me where they have these clarifications or any helpful, ettra-esc material for the APG?

[Zurai]

Marik the Grigorian wrote:

Zurai wrote:

I believe the intent was clarified to be similar to the Ability Increase evolutions, so once at 1st and again at 5/10/15/20, but, surprise surprise, actually fixing broken things wasn't a priority when making changes from the final playtest version.

Ive seen a few comments like this on the board today could you tell me where they have these clarifications or any helpful, ettra-esc material for the APG?

This particular issue was covered in the Final Playtest forums. Check the archives there, although it's likely to be a long search because the answer was probably in one of the really long threads.

There hasn't been much errata mentioned on the boards yet for the APG. The only things I remember seeing are corrections to some of the Inquisitor abilities that shouldn't mention incrementing-each-round bonuses any more.

[cfalcon]

Marik the Grigorian wrote:

@ Rellen, I think it's cool that you are provoking both side of the issue to be thorough but it seem like a bit of a stretch to think that Improved nat arm progression works just like the ability increase progression when is worded not only in a different manner but, (like ability increase) worded in a specific format that is quite common in the game. It's just to much to consider this both error and coincidence.

Nah, it's supposed to be 1,6,11,16. There's a TON of abilities in the Eidolon section which explicitly call out your minimum level to grab the evolution. They wouldn't put a 1 point evolution in and then neglect to explicitly state you need to be level 5 for it. Additionally, it's not "interesting" or at the same power level as the evolutions you need to be level 5 for, for instance, ability increase, flight, and elemental attacks.

But obviously it's worded poorly and they'll fix it.

[Marik the Grigorian]

@cfalcon, Those abilities dont work with a formula that can be exspessed without those mins and additions being called out, Improved NatArm does. So the min does not need to be explicitly (redundantly) stated. Again this [x for every y levels] structure is used through pathfinder and 3.5 material, with out any redundantly stated mins. Also, how can it be unreasonable to believe that they omitted a clarification, and at the same time likely that they just wrote the complete wrong thing? To be as you say "1,6,11,16" it would have to say "can be taken one additional time for every 5 levels the JohnDoeClass possess beyond first".

@Zuria,

You wrote:

I believe the intent was clarified to be similar to the Ability Increase evolutions,

I havent read the thread, but in a way the 2 are similar as is. They may have omitted the ability to take this at 1st as in lue of higher starting bonus, or they may have just dropped the ball. Since they both provide stacking stat bonus near the same power level, it would seem that they should be similar or the same. As far as I know the only other evos that can stack stats are the ones that increase a movement. I think we'll be seeing an ettra for Climb as well

[cfalcon]

Marik the Grigorian wrote:

@cfalcon, Those abilities dont work with a formula that can be exspessed without those mins and additions being called out, Improved NatArm does. So the min does not need to be explicitly (redundantly) stated.

Honestly this is pretty simple. All the things with a minimum level are called out that way. Specifically, there's other ones with a minimum level of 5. Many of the 2 point evolutions call out a minimum level- usually five. The three and four point evolutions ALSO do this. This guy here is the sore thumb, and there's certainly no one point evolution that has a minimum requirement. Additionally, the Eidolon's base AC is very average- it's exactly the sort of thing they would want you to be able to spend a point to buy if you wanted to go from average to good, with an ability to scale upward.

Anyway, just wait for the errata, which will be 1,6,11,16.

Quote:

I havent read the thread, but in a way the 2 are similar as is. They may have omitted the ability to take this at 1st as in lue of higher starting bonus, or they may have just dropped the ball.

They just dropped the ball. If they thought +2 natural AC was supa-pimpin, then they would have made it cost 2 and copy-pastaed over the ability score increase. They would right the wrong thing because it wouldn't make sense to have to parse a formula to figure out that your 1st level summoner can't apply this and this alone to the Eidolon- unlike literally EVERY other thing in the book, that explicitly calls out a minimum level and also doesn't cost 1 evo point.

[Rellen]

While I think the intent was probably 1,6, etc., I think RAW its 5, 10, etc., and as such decided to take Mage Armor rather than attempt argue the point with my DM. I hope they do errata it though as I'd like the option to take it as often as possible!

[Ravingdork]

All this time and still no official answer?

[David Thomassen]

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/summonerWhatsTheRealDealHere
Answered this question with a quote from James Jacobs - http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/offTopic/askJamesJacobsAllYo urQuestionsHere&page=176#8792

"2) He can take Improved Natural Armor at 1st level, then again at 5th level, then again at 10th level, and so on."

[Gjorbjond]

James Jacobs' post, linkified.

[james maissen]

Rellen wrote:

Hey folks, I was wondering if someone could clarify the natural armor evolution for me - possibly because of wishful thinking on my part, lol. Can I take it at 1st level and then again at 6th, or at 5th level and then again at 10th?

The wording says... "This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses."

You have 3 possible readings:

1. 1st, 6th, 11th, etc.

2. 5th, 10th, 15th, etc.

3. 1st, 10th, 15th, etc.

And that's without adding language, to include:

4. 1st, 5th, 10th, etc.

-James

[bartgroks]

From yesterday's thread on this topic.

Gjorbjond wrote:

The most official view I've seen on this is from James Jacobs: 1,5,10,15,20.

So according to James Jacobs

"2. Can an Eidolon take the Improved Natural Armor evolution twice by the time the Summoner is level 6? If not, at what level may he take it a second time?

...

2) He can take Improved Natural Armor at 1st level, then again at 5th level, then again at 10th level, and so on. "

Thanks Gjorbjond i was pretty sure that was how it worked but that was an awesome link.

[Rafim]

for me it's quite simple:

Improved Natural Armor (Ex): An eidolon’s hide grows
thick fur, rigid scales, or bony plates, giving it a +2 bonus
to its natural armor. This evolution can be taken once for
every five levels the summoner possesses.

possesses: at 1st level you dont posses 5 summoner levels so i trust the 5-10-15-20 rules in my game.