Disarm + Tower Shield

[Torinath]

I have a question/gripe involving ambiguity about shields and disarming.

In my specific case it involves a Tower Shield, so I would like to focus on them as the topic. I have a well armored cleric with a level in Fighter so he can walk around the battlefield and heal a little easier(he is a Dwarf so admittedly, he walks slow).

On two occasions, I have had my Tower Shield disarmed.
#1: My Tower Shield was disarmed by a Girallon, while I was using it for Total Cover.
#2: I was grappled and prone and it was disarmed again, by a Girallon.

Now I was actually asked if I had a locked Gauntlet on my Tower Shield, which to me seems not only redundant, but not permitted because it specifically states that a Locked Gauntlet it is to be used with a weapon.

I think this topic deserves some serious discussion and a rules clarification. Needless to say I wont be using Tower Shields anymore, they already come with a boatload of drawbacks(-10 ACP and -2 to attacks anyone?) and yet can be so easily taken out of the picture, given current RAW. Current RAW has them as easy to disarm as a dagger, a 45lbs dagger.

[KenderKin]

Shield, Tower

Spoiler:

This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are.

Benefit: In most situations, a tower shield provides the indicated shield bonus to your Armor Class. As a standard action, however, you can use a tower shield to grant you total cover until the beginning of your next turn. When using a tower shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only. You gain total cover for attacks that pass through this edge and no cover for attacks that do not pass through this edge (see Combat). The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.

When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield's encumbrance.

Improved Disarm (Combat)

Spoiler:

You are skilled at knocking "weapons" from a foe's grasp.

Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a disarm combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to disarm a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to disarm you.

Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a disarm combat maneuver.

As I read this "disarm" refers to weapons not shields, just as locked gauntlets are for weapons.....

Never been clarified because you don armor and don shields, that means disarm does not work on shields.......

Someone is being kinda silly in using disarm for shields!!!!

At the same time I would rule that trying to use disarm on a shield even if you have the improved disarm feat you would elicit an attack of opportunity from the weapon you are ignoring to attack the shield......

[KenderKin]

"I guess few people care about tower shields....

......a real pity that....."

;)

[MaxAstro]

Flavor text is not rules text, for like the millionth time.

From the "Disarm" rules in the Combat section of the Core Rules:

Spoiler:

You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Disarm feat, or a similar ability, attempting to disarm a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack.

If your attack is successful, your target drops one item it is carrying of your choice (even if the item is wielded with two hands). If your attack exceeds the CMD of the target by 10 or more, the target drops the items it is carrying in both hands (maximum two items if the target has more than two hands). If your attack fails by 10 or more, you drop the weapon that you were using to attempt the disarm. If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped.

Emphasis mine. "Item" does not mean "weapon". Now the question of whether a shield is "wielded" or "worn" is a valid one. Personally I allow disarming of shields, especially since you are giving up damage to pull off a non-damaging maneuver.

[RabeiUsura]

I wouldn't allow to be disarmed from a shield, as they are strapped to the arm.

[gatherer818]

shields are always strapped onto the arm and shouldn't be disarmable, EXCEPT in the situation of using the Equipment Trick (Shield) feat from the Adv. Armory. This feat allows you to unattach the shield from your arm and simply hold it and still gain the benefits of having the shield, and then you can do stuff like throw the shield at people from that position.

If you are NOT using this feat, you cannot have your shield disarmed, ever, in RAW. It can still be sundered though.

[Torinath]

MaxAstro wrote:

Flavor text is not rules text, for like the millionth time.

From the "Disarm" rules in the Combat section of the Core Rules: ** spoiler omitted **

Emphasis mine. "Item" does not mean "weapon". Now the question of whether a shield is "wielded" or "worn" is a valid one. Personally I allow disarming of shields, especially since you are giving up damage to pull off a non-damaging maneuver.

First, thank you all for your replies.

Let me admit, I see the ambiguity in the RAW (using the reference to weapon from the feat and applying it to the broader use of item in the disarm rules seems a weak argument IMHO).

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I would like to see this issue addressed in the FAQ, but who knows when that will actually get on its feet.

NOW, I have two questions regarding your allowance of disarming of a shield:
-How would you rule on scenario #1, where the attacker loses absolutely nothing by being allowed to disarm a shield.
-How do you reconcile a locked gauntlet grants a +10 vs. disarm from a small chain, while the leather straps and handgrip on the shield by RAW is treated as having no impact whatsoever on the disarm attempt, if allowed.

[KenderKin]

Thanks Max Astro

If your attack is successful, your target drops one item it is "carrying" of your choice (even if the item is wielded with two hands).

I shield is not carried!

How is a buckler disarmed? I am absolutely certain the hands are not used for those!

[Torinath]

KenderKin wrote:

Thanks Max Astro

If your attack is successful, your target drops one item it is "carrying" of your choice (even if the item is wielded with two hands).

I shield is not carried!

How is a buckler disarmed? I am absolutely certain the hands are not used for those!

I have to agree with you. IF carry means held in you hand, which given the context provided in the definition of light shields, it seems to.

Spoiler:

Shield, Light; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

However in the context provided by the buckler it implies that the shield is carried.

Spoiler:

Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.

I still believe this issue needs further clarification.

[Formingsaturn]

Now you have to remember first of all. THIS IS A GAME. The rules does not cover EVERY single things in the world that dosn't seem "realist" to you.

In raw, you can disarm a shield. Just as you can techniquely disarm a backpack. If you need to VISUALIZE things, just watch Azog vs thorin and watch a giant gundabad orc disarm a HEAVY STEEL SHIELD through brute force in the battle of the moria.

You have to remember that fighting and combat maneouvers are beyond just I hit you, you hit me or just a flick of the wrist (fencer style), it's actualy brawling, wrestling. A serie of blows that culiminate to the result of the attack wether it's damage or just putting your enemy in a dangerous position.

If you DO rule things out because of your desire for realism, remember that the ruling goes both ways. Player won't get to disarm shield from monster, monster won't get to disarm shield from players.

[blahpers]

Where in RAW can you disarm a shield?

[SlimGauge]

My GM test would be if the creature carrying the item can't drop it as a free action, neither can they be disarmed of it with the disarm action.

[Perfect Tommy]

No way in hell.

Shields are donned, not carried. Hence the 'donning enchantment is applied to shields.

This is why it takes a move action to equip or unequip a shield.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/armor/#TOC-Getting-Into-and-Out-of-Armor

No way are you dropping your sheild on a stun; and no way are you disarming.

[blahpers]

Agreed. Heck, some characters wish they could drop a shield as a free action. Switch-hitting sword & board, anyone?