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With the new Intensify Metamagic feat from the APG, direct dmg builds just took a nice bounce. I’ll be trying to work a build out based around dmg infliction from a caster.
As ever, Direct Damage builds rely on several factors.
1) Doing enough damage. Generally, a given spell has to do 2d6 x level to be a viable attack spell, and 3- 4 d6/level if you want a kill. This is because a) monster HD is usually d8, d10, or d12, not d6 and b) Monsters have Con bonuses, and every 3 pts of Con bonus means you need another die/level.
2) You have to punch SR 90% of the time. You do this with High caster level, Spell Penetration feats, caster level boosters, and the Assay Resistance spell.
3) You want to avoid saves if at all possible. This is because boosting save DC’s has costs that take away from boosting damage OR boosting spell penetration. Spells should be a secondary effect.
4) Ranged touches are possible, but low BAB and increasing defenses against them means you best have a Quickened True Strike available to overcome them at higher levels.
5) Elemental diversity. You must either be capable of dealing the ‘right’ sort of elemental dmg (to overcome resistance/immunity, or take advantage of weird vulnerabilities (lighting vs iron golems?)), the ‘best’ sort of damage (fire vs cold, cold vs fire, etc), or non-resistable dmg (typically, force, sometimes sonic). Furthermore, you should be able to do this on the fly.
6) Range. Burning Hands might do MM dmg, but the range means you basically have to be in Melee to use it…ugh!
Benefits? Cast and die. If you are able to keep elevating damage, you don’t need a lot of save or suck spells in memory. Even if you don’t kill something, you catastrophically weaken it to the point that other members in the party might be able to finish it off…or a Quickened spell of your own. ‘Controller’ types might crow about instant kills possible…but if the enemy makes the save or is immune, what have they accomplished? NOTHING. What have you done? Inflicted only 200 pts dmg to the enemy instead of killing it, so the fighter can take it out on his turn? Sounds like a plan.
Other benefits? You can still do all that save and die and battlefield control stuff…but it’s no longer a necessity. You can open up a fight just like a charging warrior or full attacking archer.
Tools for a DD build
1) Metamagic feats. Yep, you need ‘em.
2) Metamagic rods. For stacking love.
3) Good LOW LEVEL dmg spells. Why? Because stacking metas is more efficient then higher level spells.
4) Caster level increases, both for SR and more dice.
5) Fixed dmg and dice bonuses, if possible. These are multiplied with the spell. Warmage Edge is one example. Banespell is another. SA dmg is a third.
6) PrC’s with weird abilities that don’t come on feats, and don’t hurt the build.
7) Anything that provides metamagic efficiency. Rods are one. Artificers’ imbue ability is another. Feats are a third.
Why would you want a low level spell instead of, say, Disintegrate, or level 4 Orb spells? Well, because if you stack enough Metas on a Scorching Ray, you can easily out dmg a basic Disintegrate with 4 levels of spell play. Too, you have Magic Missile at level 1, and Orbs don’t start until 7th. As long as the spell you pick has a higher base dmg then the spell you want by the time you can cast it, you’re ahead of the game.
Key feats are anything that provides +50% or more dmg to the spell for a net +1 or +0, or 100% dmg for +2 or +3.
Those feats are: Empower (+2/+50%), Energize (+1/+50% vs undead, Good), Maximize (+3/+65%), Twin (+4/+100%), Admixture (+4/+100%), Split Ray (+2/+100% to single Rays), Quicken (/+4generally +50% to dmg/rd), and perhaps Chain (+3/turns a Ray into a TARGETED AoE).
Sudden Feats: At 1/day use each, these are meh for a blaster build. Avoid them. Use Metamagic Rods if you must.
Other Feats:
Arcane Thesis: All direct dmg builds are built around a single spell for metamagic efficiency. This feat makes each metamagic effect cost -1, to a minimum of +0, for the chosen spell, AND gives you +2 to caster level. You can only have one, so this spell is basically only useful for attack spells.
Practical Metamagic: The cost of the Metamagic feat chosen is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. In conjunction with Arcane Thesis, you now have Metamagic +2 that can be reduced to 0.
Metamagic Spell: The spell’s total Metamagic cost is reduced by 1, to a minimum of +1. In combo with Arcane Thesis, a +3 feat can now be reduced to 0, or a +4 feat to +1.
Intensify Spell: The +5 dice to the damage cap does mean you have to be higher level to actually make use of the spell (generally, 10+ caster level). However, with Arcane Thesis, it’s a +0 spell…and for Magic Missile, +5 missiles is effectively double dmg! (going from 15d6 to 20d6 with Orbs is only +33%...)
Blistering Spell/Flash Frost: This feat gives +2 Fire/Cold dmg /level of spell. Dm’s call on whether this applies to low level spells in high level slots…probably won’t allow it, MAYBE if you pick up Raised Spell. +0 with Thesis.
Piercing Cold/Fire: This does fire/cold dmg to those normally immune to stuff. The reason to NOT take this is that you generally have more effect if you just are able to switch the dmg of the element…or use force dmg. There’s a divine version of this feat which instead does divine dmg ½ (Consecracted Spell) to everything, but the spell also becomes Good.
Energize: This is an exalted spell, and only usable by good casters. Gives +50% against undead, and reduces dmg against all others. At +1, it becomes free with a Thesis…add it when you can use it.
Purify Spell: This exalted Feat is +1, and increases the die type (d6->d8) versus Evil sub-type creatures, doing no dmg to good and ½ to neutrals. While the average dmg is +1/die and so nothing impressive, in conjuction with Maximize, this feat is exceptionally nice…if you are facing Evil Outsiders. Add it when you need it. It’s also nice in that you won’t have to worry about splash dmg to Good party members.
Fell Drain: +2/ Creature taking dmg gains 1 negative level. Nice in combination with Twin/split rays, etc, otherwise more of a fixed dmg effect.
Intensify (+1): raises the max dmg dice of a spell by 5. Works great for lower level spells with low caps, less effective on higher level spells as they might exceed caster level.
Banemagic: While only statted out in Lords of Madness for Aberrations, this feat does +2d6 dmg to the Baned targets. DM’s call if dmg is per target or by spell for balance. Likely will have to be taken for each type desired independently. +0 with Thesis.
SPELLS TO USE
Magic Missile: Magic Missile remains the core spell of a blaster build. While fairly useless at low levels because of the base dmg, as caster level increases, dmg can ramp up VERY quickly with metamagic effects. It’s a force spell; it never misses; has decent range; few enemies can defend against it; can hit multiple targets or focus on one. Main weakness is SR, also low dmg cap of 5d4+5.
Scorching Ray (2nd): The second most popular spell. Has decent dmg at low levels; excellent range; does FIRE dmg; and can hit multiple targets or just one; no saves; decent dmg cap at 12d6. Weaknesses: Does elemental dmg; Requires a Touch Attack; SR defends; the only Ray spell with multiple rays, so Split Ray is actually useless; Intensify technically doesn’t work because Split Ray doesn’t have an even die/level modifier.
Elemental Orbs (4th): This set of spells is popular because of their no-SR rule, and because most DM’s allow you to pick the element on the fly, instead of being forced to memorize each Orb individually. The high dmg cap is nice for late game, too.
The spells have good range; No saves vs the dmg; No SR or even anti-magic; excellent dmg cap (15d6). Weakness: DM call on elemental flexibility means Elemental is potentially good OR bad; Single target; mid to late game; Ranged touch attack; level 4 spell limits metamagic upside; Metamagic Rods more expensive.
Because Force Orbs do d4 dmg instead of d6, DM’s are likely to rule that they aren’t part of the Elemental Orb line.
Wings of Flurry: This is a nominated spell because of the unlimited dmg cap for force dmg. However, it’s basically a trap spell. This is an AoE spell that emanates from the caster…basically the caster is at the center of a 30’ burst. Thus, the range is horrible, it cannot be targeted, and you have to have some effect to exclude allies from the AoE. It makes a great one-off spell with a rod of Maximize in hand, but as a repeat blaster spell doesn’t cut the mustard.
Disintegrate: This is the last of the normal blaster spells, picked primarily because of the 2d6/level dmg. It has excellent dmg; massive cap (40d6); utility usage (good bye wall); awesome dmg type (TURN TO DUST); and decent range. Weaknesses? Well, it’s 6th level…many games are almost over at the time you get it, and you will only get 3 levels of metamagic to play with. You do, however, have time to prepare, so it can be murderously effective from the get go. It’s also ranged touch, and subject to SR. The cost of metamagic rods to stack with it is also prohibitive (Greater Rods req).
Other Spells
Assay Resistance; level 4 spell, cast on an enemy, +10 to beat SR. Indispensable.
Acid Sheathe: level 2 spell, surrounds you in a field of acid. If you cast an acid spell, you get +1 dmg/die. As an elemental spell, it can be adjusted to any elemental type for some nice bonus dmg!
True Strike: Your BAB sucks, and sometimes you MUST hit. True Strike and its quickened cousin are very important.
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MAGIC ITEMS
Metamagic Rods: The low level spells use low level Rods even if meta’d up to level 9. Suggested are Maximize and Quicken.
Orange Ioun stone: For +1 caster level, can’t go wrong.
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PrC’s
The Force Missile Mage. Magic Missile specific. This 5 level PrC gives you several nice benefits: Free still spell (Cast MM while bound, grappled); Elemental dmg for MM’s; 2 extra MM’s (=+40% base dmg…20% with Intensify); a free use of Shield; immunity to MM’s, and +2 spell penetration to MM’s. You can enter at level 5, cost is a stupid feat (combat casting…most DM’s will likely allow Arcane Thesis), and you lose your first level of spellcasting.
Spellwarp Sniper: This 5 level PrC gives you a major bonus in that any ranged attack spell can be reduced to a Ray…and that Ray can then be Split! The entry reqs are annoying (SA dmg), but the utility of having Split Ray available is impressive. One level of this with a MM build is a guaranteed +100% dmg.
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THE MATH
Let’s start with Disintegrate, as it is the easiest.
You get Disintegrate at level 11. With an Arcane Thesis and Metamagic Spell, you can instantly add Split Ray to the Disintegrate for FREE. So, 22d6 dmg becomes 44d6 dmg. Ouch.
Add Practical Metamagic to Empower, and you get that for FREE. Five feats, 66d6 dmg. Not bad for suddenly hitting level 11. If this is ALL you do, at level 20 you have a 120d6 attack spell for ~420 dmg, still using a level 6 slot.
Your next spell will be Twin Spell. If you make it Practical, it’s an 8th level spell (+2 adjustment). You’re level 15, so 30d6 x6 = 180d6 dmg…or about 630 dmg. At level 20, 240d6 dmg for 840 dmgish.
By making Split Ray Practical, we can drop this murderous salvo to a 7th level spell. This gives us room to Maximize (I’d just use a Rod), for 960 + 80d6 dmg as a 9th level spell cast at CL 20. We still have to hit stuff, they get a save, and SR…but if it works, goodbye Great Wyrm.
With Intensify, we raise maximum dice 5. With Arcane Thesis and an Ioun stone, we can hit CL 23. Total costs, ten feats. Dmg at CL 23? 46d6 x 6, or 276d6 dmg….
Commentary: Not bad dmg…Split Ray is the real shining force here, as it + Twin are the big dmg dealers. However, you don’t even get your first Disintegrate until level 11, and we’re talking 10 feats to make this build…and the targets still gets saves, SR, and touch AC, against all 4 rays seperately. Ugh.
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Elemental Orbs: 4th level, dmg cap 15d6 or 15d4, depending on what you want to use.
No free Split Ray without Spellwarp Sniper.
So, Empower for free, after Arcane Thesis and Metamagic Spell. At 8th is a 12d6 attack.
We can Sheathe ahead of time, if we know the element, for +1/die, or 12d6+12.
Intensify, +5d6 (or, one Ray). Dmg goes from 12d6+12 at level 8 to 30d6+30 at CL 20, still a 4th level slot.
Twin, Practical is x2. 6th level slot, CL 12 = 36d6+36, CL 20 = 60d6+60
Admixture already has all elemental types to work with, so x2, +2 slots if Practical. 120d6 + 120.
No save, no SR, Touch Attack, Elemental dmg of choice. Maximize makes this 540 dmg + 40d6, or ~640 dmg.
Also 10 feats. First use of spell at level 7-8.
IF we can work Spellwarp Sniper into the build? It would take 2 more feats, but it’s ‘free’ if we can do it…and means dmg would DOUBLE to ~1280 dmg.. No save, no SR…Touch Attack.
Death by True Strike, as it were. Do we need it? Not much out there can take 900 pts of the right Elemental dmg…but even if we head into Epic Levels, that’s just nuts.
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Scorching Ray
Main Problem…can’t stretch Dmg cap, which stops at 12d6. But! Starts being usable at 6th (Thesis)
Arcane Thesis + Empower + Metamagic spell = free. Level 6 = 12d6dmg (+2 CL Thesis). Fire Sheathe for 12d6+12, maxing out at 18d6+18 at CL 11.
Practical Twin Spell 4th level spell, 24d6+24, maxing out at 36d6+36 at CL 11.
Practical Admixture (req. Elemen Sub); 6th level Spell, 72d6+72.
Split Ray at +1 = 7th level spell, 4 rays for 24d6+24 each (96d6+96)
W 2 levels of Spellwarp Sniper, we can take all 4 rays down to 1 ray, then Split it. 144d6+144 dmg, or about 700. This can then be Maximized to 720 +48d6 dmg…
If DM allows Intensify to add another Ray, increase dmg 33% by adding another Ray.
Total cost: 10 feats.
Still Uses Lesser Rods of Metamagic, which is nice.
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Magic Missile
Like Scorching Ray, starts to shine at level 6 with Arcane Thesis. Practically requires Force Missile Mage. Intensify means dmg keeps scaling up to level 20.
Level 6 – Force Missile Mage, Arcane Thesis, Metamagic Spell, Empower. 7.5d4+7, first level spell (5 missiles). Practical Metamagic/Twin Spell, 15d4+15 dmg (~52 pts), 3rd level spell.
Level 8 – Elemental MM’s mean Sheathing available. 9d4+18 (41 dmg) level 1’s, 18d4+36 level 3’s. (6 missiles)
Level 10 = +2 Missiles. CL+1. Intensify = 8 Missiles. Practical Admixture = 5th level slots.
1 = 12d4+24 (54 dmg) 3= 24d4+48 5=48d4+96 (216 dmg)
Level 12- If we can assume 1 level of Spellwarp Sniper, Practical Split Ray = Free. 9 missiles.
Level 1 – 27d4+54 (~121) Level 3= 54d4+108 (~243) Level 5 = 108d4+216. (~485)
Note: We aren’t using any spell slots over 5th level….
Caster Level 15. 11 missiles.(cl+2)
1- 33d4+66 (~150) 2- 66d4+132 5- 132d4+264 (~600)
Caster Level 20 12 missiles
1- 36d4+72 (162)
3rd – 72d4+144
5th – 144d4+288 (~648 dmg)
Fell Drain is also +1 level, and the targets lose 4 levels, as an alternative. (Admixture doesn't create a new Ray).
Repeat Spell could also mean the same thing goes off next round, but you're probably just going to Quicken and kill something.
REq: 9 feats. Uses no level 6+ slots unless Quicken is taken. Still viable for more MM feats. Argent Savant level 5 ability would increase dmg by +1/die.
So, this build matures very quickly, gets excellent dmg, and scales wonderfully, while leaving higher level slots open. It hits incorporeals, adjusts elemental dmg, requires no TH roll, and generally only worries about Spell resistance…using one of the level 4 slots left wide open. Pretty much the only thing it’s useless against is Golems, and that’s why you have all those 4th level slots still open.
Gets spell slots later then some builds, but you're killing things with LEVEL 5 SLOTS. CL is the important thing...that, and getting all the feats you can to pull this off.
==Aelryinth
You do not get extra missiles from magic missile with Intensified Spell. IS increases the maximum number of damage dice but specifically says that no other variables are affected. Further, spells that inflict damage that is not based on caster level are not affected. Magic missile's damage isn't affected by caster level; it deals 1d4+1 damage per missile regardless of whether you're CL1 or CL100. Even if you interpreted it as dealing xd4+x damage to a single target, you still have the additional effect of generating extra missiles to do that, which is explicitly forbidden by the feat.
You do not get extra missiles from magic missile with Intensified Spell. IS increases the maximum number of damage dice but specifically says that no other variables are affected. Further, spells that inflict damage that is not based on caster level are not affected. Magic missile's damage isn't affected by caster level; it deals 1d4+1 damage per missile regardless of whether you're CL1 or CL100. Even if you interpreted it as dealing xd4+x damage to a single target, you still have the additional effect of generating extra missiles to do that, which is explicitly forbidden by the feat.
If you're trying to infer that caster level does not affect dmg dice for magic missile, I'm going to laugh at you. CL 2 is 1 mm, 1 dice. Cl4 is 2 MM, 2 dice. The fact that the dmg is doled out one missile at a time is pretty much irrelevant. The only 'variable' that might come into play is the ability to pick more then 5 targets, in which case you simply are restricted to five targets.
I didn't see anything about 'extra missiles generated by these dice are explictly forbidden' in the feat description, but YMMV.
In any event, you'd work around it with Spellwarp Sniper, which would turn all the missiles into a Ray, which would hand-wave off even the poor objections you are making. It would simply become a neccessity instead of an extra nice thing.
==Aelryinth
The fact that the dmg is doled out one missile at a time is pretty much irrelevant.
Actually, it's completely relevant. You get 1d4+1 per missile, period, end of story, do not pass Go. You can't get more damage without generating more missiles, and generating more missiles is a "variable other than damage", and thus disallowed.
And no, you can't use Spellwarp Sniper to get around it, either. Spellwarp only turns Area spells into rays: "You can alter the form of certain area spells into rays as you cast them. As a free action, you can warp a 1st-level area spell with instantaneous duration and a range greater than touch". Magic missile is an Effect spell, not an Area spell.
It is very clear that the intent of Intensified Spell is to increase the caster level cap for "xd6 per caster level" spells by 5, and only that.
Isn't Spellwarp Sniper 3.5 as well?
IS increases the maximum damage dice by 5 caster levels. I'm curious as to how this wouldn't affect Magic Missile or Scorching Ray. Is it because they don't work like Fireball? I do wish the spell was a little more clear. Hopefully a Dev can weigh in on this.
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IS increases the maximum damage dice by 5 caster levels. I'm curious as to how this wouldn't affect Magic Missile or Scorching Ray. Is it because they don't work like Fireball? I do wish the spell was a little more clear. Hopefully a Dev can weigh in on this.
its because its not x/d6 its static d4+1 or 4d6 per missile/ray. if scorching ray were x/d6 it would work, but its x/rays which is different.
I disagree with the OP about "most DM's let you take 1 orb spell and get them all". thats like saying your fireball can deal any element at any time, and lightning bolt too. Why not let any elemental spell be any element any time at that point? why not make "generic energy damage 3rd level spell with line, burst or cone" a spell? lightning bolt/fireball/sonic lance/a few others all in 1, don't bother learning a bunch of spells, they're all the same right? no.
Generally, when you discuss possible builds, you should try to keep within the rules as written and with only official material. In a home game this can of course be altered, but since everyone is playing with different house rules and supplements, when you're on an open board like this, it's better to discuss the build by RAW.
There's a lot of 3.5 material there, and we already know we can build teh totally broken caster in 3.5. Pathfinder tried to reset that, so when optimizing for pathfinder, it's better to keep to pathfinder stuff.
I mean this in no disrespectful way, I just think that it's easier to evaluate the general value of blasts if we don't assume house rules that not everyone uses.
| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. |
I absolutely disagree that Magic missile doesn't fall under Intensify. I actually believe it was created to keep it effective as a low level damage spell. The dmg cap goes up, and then another missile is created to deal it. The missile isn't created to deal the dmg until the cap goes up. Perfectly logical. You're nitpicking an artificial distinction.
Everyone I've ever seen use Elemental Orb could select the element at the time of casting, not just memorize one type of the orb. It's another reason why it was so useful. If you play Monte Cook's AU, all casters can do that with all elemental attack spells.
Scorching Ray is ambiguous because it doesn't increase in one die increments...it actually increases in 4d6 ray increments. That said, nothing wrong with letting it add another Ray.
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Magic Missile definitely doesn't fall into the spells a Spellwarp Sniper can affect.
I'm also inclined to think Orb wouldn't work, because it's not a Ray and yet it shares all Ray characteristics as far as targetting. Doubtless by design. Note that MM has plenty of room to fit Repeat spell and Quicken...if you can get the feats.
That means you're stuck with Repeat Spell at +4/+2 for the final doubling in the next round...or going with Quicken. That does leave Disintegrate as the best potential dmg champ...except for the trifecta of saves, hits, AND SR you have to beat. Ugh.
FAILED to Edit Main Post...it's not giving me the option. Ah well.
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I absolutely disagree that Magic missile doesn't fall under Intensify. I actually believe it was created to keep it effective as a low level damage spell. The dmg cap goes up, and then another missile is created to deal it. The missile isn't created to deal the dmg until the cap goes up. Perfectly logical. You're nitpicking an artificial distinction.
No. There is no damage cap on magic missile. There's a missile cap. Intensified Spell does not affect the missile cap. It very specifically says that the only thing it affects is damage. Period. There's no way to get more damage from magic missile without generating more missiles, so an intensified magic missile is a level 2 spell that does exactly the same thing a normal magic missile does.
Intensified Spell explicitly cannot do anything except increase damage. Creating another missile means you can attack another target with the spell. That's obviously not the intent of the feat. And don't say, "Well, it just caps the number of targets at 5" because then you're adding in additional house rules to the feat just so you can pretend you're not house ruling it in the first place.
Acid Sheathe: level 2 spell, surrounds you in a field of acid. If you cast an acid spell, you get +1 dmg/die. As an elemental spell, it can be adjusted to any elemental type for some nice bonus dmg!
Sir, what book is this spell in? I need it for my upcoming Elemental Sorc build. At level 11 all his spell damage will be 'holy fire' and bypass all energy resistance so I am looking for things to add auto damage to his spell damage.
Thanks for this guide, it is exactly what I was looking for. While I am positive my ref will not interpret Arcane Thesis the way you present it, the article as a whole is very good for me as an Arcane n00b.
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I absolutely disagree that Magic missile doesn't fall under Intensify. I actually believe it was created to keep it effective as a low level damage spell. The dmg cap goes up, and then another missile is created to deal it. The missile isn't created to deal the dmg until the cap goes up. Perfectly logical. You're nitpicking an artificial distinction.No. There is no damage cap on magic missile. There's a missile cap. Intensified Spell does not affect the missile cap. It very specifically says that the only thing it affects is damage. Period. There's no way to get more damage from magic missile without generating more missiles, so an intensified magic missile is a level 2 spell that does exactly the same thing a normal magic missile does.
Intensified Spell explicitly cannot do anything except increase damage. Creating another missile means you can attack another target with the spell. That's obviously not the intent of the feat. And don't say, "Well, it just caps the number of targets at 5" because then you're adding in additional house rules to the feat just so you can pretend you're not house ruling it in the first place.
+1
+1I absolutely disagree that Magic missile doesn't fall under Intensify. I actually believe it was created to keep it effective as a low level damage spell. The dmg cap goes up, and then another missile is created to deal it. The missile isn't created to deal the dmg until the cap goes up. Perfectly logical. You're nitpicking an artificial distinction.No. There is no damage cap on magic missile. There's a missile cap. Intensified Spell does not affect the missile cap. It very specifically says that the only thing it affects is damage. Period. There's no way to get more damage from magic missile without generating more missiles, so an intensified magic missile is a level 2 spell that does exactly the same thing a normal magic missile does.
Intensified Spell explicitly cannot do anything except increase damage. Creating another missile means you can attack another target with the spell. That's obviously not the intent of the feat. And don't say, "Well, it just caps the number of targets at 5" because then you're adding in additional house rules to the feat just so you can pretend you're not house ruling it in the first place.
+1
Also I am FAQing this to try to minimize new disscussion on the subject.
Humbly,
Yawar
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I absolutely disagree that Magic missile doesn't fall under Intensify. I actually believe it was created to keep it effective as a low level damage spell. The dmg cap goes up, and then another missile is created to deal it. The missile isn't created to deal the dmg until the cap goes up. Perfectly logical. You're nitpicking an artificial distinction.No. There is no damage cap on magic missile. There's a missile cap. Intensified Spell does not affect the missile cap. It very specifically says that the only thing it affects is damage. Period. There's no way to get more damage from magic missile without generating more missiles, so an intensified magic missile is a level 2 spell that does exactly the same thing a normal magic missile does.
Intensified Spell explicitly cannot do anything except increase damage. Creating another missile means you can attack another target with the spell. That's obviously not the intent of the feat. And don't say, "Well, it just caps the number of targets at 5" because then you're adding in additional house rules to the feat just so you can pretend you're not house ruling it in the first place.
+1
+1I absolutely disagree that Magic missile doesn't fall under Intensify. I actually believe it was created to keep it effective as a low level damage spell. The dmg cap goes up, and then another missile is created to deal it. The missile isn't created to deal the dmg until the cap goes up. Perfectly logical. You're nitpicking an artificial distinction.No. There is no damage cap on magic missile. There's a missile cap. Intensified Spell does not affect the missile cap. It very specifically says that the only thing it affects is damage. Period. There's no way to get more damage from magic missile without generating more missiles, so an intensified magic missile is a level 2 spell that does exactly the same thing a normal magic missile does.
Intensified Spell explicitly cannot do anything except increase damage. Creating another missile means you can attack another target with the spell. That's obviously not the intent of the feat. And don't say, "Well, it just caps the number of targets at 5" because then you're adding in additional house rules to the feat just so you can pretend you're not house ruling it in the first place.
+1
Also I am FAQing this to try to minimize new disscussion on the subject.
Humbly,
Yawar
+1. I am with Zurai on this one. I think it just needs to be errata'd using fireball as an example, and specifically calling out magic missile as a no no.
+1. I am with Zurai on this one. I think it just needs to be errata'd using fireball as an example, and specifically calling out magic missile as a no no.+1I absolutely disagree that Magic missile doesn't fall under Intensify. I actually believe it was created to keep it effective as a low level damage spell. The dmg cap goes up, and then another missile is created to deal it. The missile isn't created to deal the dmg until the cap goes up. Perfectly logical. You're nitpicking an artificial distinction.No. There is no damage cap on magic missile. There's a missile cap. Intensified Spell does not affect the missile cap. It very specifically says that the only thing it affects is damage. Period. There's no way to get more damage from magic missile without generating more missiles, so an intensified magic missile is a level 2 spell that does exactly the same thing a normal magic missile does.
Intensified Spell explicitly cannot do anything except increase damage. Creating another missile means you can attack another target with the spell. That's obviously not the intent of the feat. And don't say, "Well, it just caps the number of targets at 5" because then you're adding in additional house rules to the feat just so you can pretend you're not house ruling it in the first place.
+1
Also I am FAQing this to try to minimize new disscussion on the subject.
Humbly,
Yawar
That errata probably won't happen since formating is a prioriy in errataing, but would most likely appear in a FAQ.
Humbly,
Yawar
Heh!
Acid Sheathe is in the Spell Compendium from WoTC.
Makes me wish they'd brought back Devastate and Empradweomer.
:)
I'll happily accept Errata on the subject. Point it out when it comes through for me.
Note that limits dmg to, hmm.
7 missiles.
1) 10.5 d4 + 21 (7 missiles) 3) 21d4 +42 (14 missiles) 5) 42d4 +84 (187 dmg)
The build is STILL mature at 10th, and doesn't use any higher level slots.
And keep your options open with Energize, Purify, Repeat spell, Maximize and Quicken.
==Aelryinth
I'd also like to point out something very counter intuitive.
1) woot, intensify let's me get more magic missiles off because they raised the Dice Cap!
2) DM: no. The feat would have to say it created more missiles. It doesn't, therefore you don't get it. Creating more missiles means you could hit more targets, and Intensify doesn't let you do that.
3) Uh, what? Hitting one target max per missile is a part of the spell, it's not somethign new.
4) DM: That's what the feat reads.
5) o000kay. I'm going to create a LESS POWERFUL version of Magic Missile, stack all the missiles on one and only target one opponent. You know, Like Improved magic Missile and Greater Magic Missile. I suppose I'll call it 'lesser magic missile'. Same spell, only you can't multi-target. So, by definition, it can now be intensified, correct?
6) DM: Um, yeah...
i.e. the above view on restricting use of Intensify with Magic Missile makes no sense. IF you really think being able to target an additional 5 people for 2-5 dmg is breaking the feat, then simply 'leave out' the multi-targeting and force the spell down to single target. It's what I'd do.
Eesh.
==Aelryinth
as you have said yourself........
The fact that the dmg is doled out one missile at a time is pretty much irrelevant.
Whether you can hit one target or five with a MM is irrelevant. Each missile does 1d4+1 dmg, the number of missiles is level dependent, not the damage of each missile.
IF you really think being able to target an additional 5 people for 2-5 dmg is breaking the feat, then simply 'leave out' the multi-targeting and force the spell down to single target. It's what I'd do.
Then you have a different spell to what MM is. House rule a force spell that creates one missile that does 1d4+1 dmg/2 levels and apply IS to your heart's content....
i.e. the above view on restricting use of Intensify with Magic Missile makes no sense
It makes perfect sense as IS is designed to only be applied to a specific subset of spells like Fireball that do 1dx/level and have a level cap. It simply means a level 15 wizard could cast a 15d6 fireball as a level 4 spell, rather than it never going beyond a level 3 spell that does 10d6.
Sure it only applies to certain spells, but that is no different to how other metamagic feats work.
I was totally hooked on this thread until I realized the OP was bringing v3.5 material into it as well. :(
We need to get somebody to make a Pathfinder purist version of it. Any volunteers?
Also, Intensify spell does NOT work with magic missile or scorching ray for the reasons Zurai mentioned.
Wrong forum. Mods should put this in 3.5 forum.
People severly underestimate the potential of blasters in Pathfinder. Let's try:
We'll go for a gnome sorcerer with the draconic bloodline (red) and the Pyromaniac alternate racial feature so we can get three rays from scorching ray at level 10. Feats necessary are point blank shot, precise shot, empower spell and quicken spell.
A single unmodified scorching ray will be dealing 4d6+5 damage (+4 bloodline, +1 point blank), and he'll be shooting three of them per casting, which means an average of 57 damage if they all hit. If he uses quicken spell, he can get out two of those for an average of 114 damage if they both hit. If he empowers the first spell, he can reach 135 damage per round, which is pretty hefty to say the least.
Now, of course not all of them are going to hit, but most of them are since we're talking about touch attacks from a small caster with a sufficiently high dexterity score and point blank shot. We're also not counting in the damage potential of these spells if they deal critical hits, so it evens out quite nicely.
The obvious downside of this build would of course be fire resistance, which would severely reduce the damage. If you chose the Elemental Spell metamagic feat, you could still be pumping out scorching rays in those situations, although you'd be looking at a lesser damage output.
Sure, if that gnome sorcerer is going to solo an adventure, more power to him - I'd make a blaster too.
But if he's going to adventure with a party of allies, then he should bring along a rogue, a front-line bruiser, and a support character who can fight and maybe bring some healing - and with those allies, I'll take the damage output from a Haste spell that never misses and never gets SR and never allows a save to avoid the effect.
And I can do that without having to pigeonhole myself into a very specific race/class/racial feature combo to make it work.
Sure, if that gnome sorcerer is going to solo an adventure, more power to him - I'd make a blaster too.
But if he's going to adventure with a party of allies, then he should bring along a rogue, a front-line bruiser, and a support character who can fight and maybe bring some healing - and with those allies, I'll take the damage output from a Haste spell that never misses and never gets SR and never allows a save to avoid the effect.
And I can do that without having to pigeonhole myself into a very specific race/class/racial feature combo to make it work.
He doesn't have to be a gnome sorcerer, it was just an example of a build. I could probably do a viable wizard blaster, also, especially with the new admixture subschool. Also, this character could have area of effect spells that could clear out hordes of bad guys, something that even a hasted rogue or fighter couldn't do as effectively.
Of course the sorcerer might be better off working as a supporter/buffer in most groups. But say you're in a party that has a wizard that's got haste and the buffs covered. Filling a damage dealing role with a blaster is very viable and not as gimped as everyone makes it out to be.
You raise me a blaster build made using ten 3.5 splats and some liberal rules interpretation, I raise you a core Wizard with GSF and Hold Monster.
I counter raise with an undead, an ooze, a vermin, a construct,and many outsiders, dragons, and NPC's with Good Will saves. Great, you just MIGHT get your spell off on anyone and everyone else. And if it fails you succeeded at nothing.
That tactic is only good on things that reliably have poor Will saves...which is hardly a majority of your foes.
Damage, however, works against just about everything.
Hmm. Be easy to underpower Scorching Ray, reduce dmg to d6/level, and not split it up, too. Make the spell LESS powerful, and suddenly it, too, can be Intensified.
==Aelryinth
Sure, if that gnome sorcerer is going to solo an adventure, more power to him - I'd make a blaster too.
But if he's going to adventure with a party of allies, then he should bring along a rogue, a front-line bruiser, and a support character who can fight and maybe bring some healing - and with those allies, I'll take the damage output from a Haste spell that never misses and never gets SR and never allows a save to avoid the effect.
And I can do that without having to pigeonhole myself into a very specific race/class/racial feature combo to make it work.
He doesn't have to be a gnome sorcerer, it was just an example of a build. I could probably do a viable wizard blaster, also, especially with the new admixture subschool. Also, this character could have area of effect spells that could clear out hordes of bad guys, something that even a hasted rogue or fighter couldn't do as effectively.
Of course the sorcerer might be better off working as a supporter/buffer in most groups. But say you're in a party that has a wizard that's got haste and the buffs covered. Filling a damage dealing role with a blaster is very viable and not as gimped as everyone makes it out to be.
The problem with AoE's is the spell level and the metas cost. At a minimum, you also have to have 4+ targets, all taking the max dmg, to make the spell worthwhile (the aggregate dmg = the hp of killing one, usually). A Twinned Fireball is level 7 unless you've some way to reduce the cost...ugh...level 13 before you get an effective AoE? Even Empowered jumps it to level 5, which is 9th level...I'd like to be effective before then, if possible.
The problem is that an AoE usually doesn't kill anything, it just softens them up for others to do so. If you have massive numbers of foes, that's not neccessarily a bad thing...lots of dmg is okay, as long as the survivors can't surround/reach you, and maybe the fighter can then one-hit them, one after another.
Then, most AoE's have Reflex saves...which is often a good save for monsters, and is affected by cover. Evasion then kicks in occasionally...so you have to worry about raising saves.
You also have Spell Resistance to factor in.
And lastly, you have to be able to exclude your friends from the effects of the blast, which is another extra feat to spend. It's why I like Magic Missile...no having to take Precise Shot, or worry about cover bonuses to AC or saves.
==Aelryinth
Is this build having Arcane Thesis subtract 1 from the level adjustment of EACH metamagic effect effecting a spell? And is that how it is supposed to work?
Is this build having Arcane Thesis subtract 1 from the level adjustment of EACH metamagic effect effecting a spell? And is that how it is supposed to work?
This "build" is a patchwork of stuff from lots of different books, a fat amount of house rules, and general wishful thinking.
Arcane Thesis was re-errata'd for the book it appeared in. It subtracts one metamagic level from the cost of all metamagic feats that apply to the spell. Thus, an Empowered Maximized spell with Arcane Thesis is +3 levels, not +5 (-1 each meta).
Practical Metamagic takes a MM feat and reduces the cost of it by 1, to a minimum of 1.
Metamagic Spell reduces the total cost of metamagics applied to a specific spell by 1, to a minimum of 1.
These last two are thus only useful for metas with a cost of 2 or more.
BUT...it means you can potentially reduce the cost of multiple metas to 0 (those with 1 cost, modified), and a single meta by 3 pts (thus making a Twinned Magic Missile a level 2 spell...).
The premise behind the build is doing incredible dmg with lower and less used spell slots, leaving your higher level slots free to focus on other things. It's also cheaper for Metamagic Rods...
===Aelryinth
Arcane Thesis was re-errata'd for the book it appeared in. It subtracts one metamagic level from the cost of all metamagic feats that apply to the spell. Thus, an Empowered Maximized spell with Arcane Thesis is +3 levels, not +5 (-1 each meta).
That sounds dumb. To be frank. Not only incredibly powerful, as you've clearly demonstrated, whenever applied to +1 metamagic spells, but of variable value with other spells. Really lame and gimmicky.
Practical Metamagic takes a MM feat and reduces the cost of it by 1, to a minimum of 1.
Metamagic Spell reduces the total cost of metamagics applied to a specific spell by 1, to a minimum of 1.
So one of the base assumptions is that your DM allows you to ply one or both of these before Arcane Thesis.
BUT...it means you can potentially reduce the cost of multiple metas to 0 (those with 1 cost, modified), and a single meta by 3 pts (thus making a Twinned Magic Missile a level 2 spell...).
Again, assuming the DM is somewhat liberal in interpretation. Although, to be honest, a fair amount of this already is, so I guess that's not much of a stretch. ;-)
Arcane Thesis is really only useful for blaster builds, because they are the only spells that can actually stack multiple metas usefully.
Furthermore, you can only have one Thesis, ever. In effect, you are making it a signature spell.
As for applying the feats...that happens in the order YOU want them to apply. So, yes, do the restricted metas before the unlimited one, and get the costs to 0. For your one spell only, of course. Having metas apply the 'wrong way' is just DM cheesing you. Might as well just hand him your spellbook and play an archer then.
none of this is actually a stretch...all the feats are there. The only thing you can really argue on is Intensify, and that only applies level 10+. It does, however, make the build quite nice at level 20 as well as level 10.
==Aelryinth
I don't argue that it's limited in scope. That's quite true, and, in fact, is quite a weakness. I, personally, would never use a build like this as a player specifically because it *is* so weak. It's more that I think the feat is, to be brief, retarded. ;)
And it certainly has FAR more benefit than JUST blaster spells. Still spell, silent spell, extend spell, enlarge spell, all of these are affected very well by this feat. There is, in fact, no reason to not stack any of these that are applicable on your thesis spell. So it's really not only good for blaster spells.
As for applying the feats...that happens in the order YOU want them to apply. So, yes, do the restricted metas before the unlimited one, and get the costs to 0.
Where is that stated? Not doubting you; I'm just honestly curious. I've never seen that rule before, and it would be a nice one to cite.
|
You raise me a blaster build made using ten 3.5 splats and some liberal rules interpretation, I raise you a core Wizard with GSF and Hold Monster.I counter raise with an undead, an ooze, a vermin, a construct,and many outsiders, dragons, and NPC's with Good Will saves. Great, you just MIGHT get your spell off on anyone and everyone else. And if it fails you succeeded at nothing.
That tactic is only good on things that reliably have poor Will saves...which is hardly a majority of your foes.
Damage, however, works against just about everything.
Hmm. Be easy to underpower Scorching Ray, reduce dmg to d6/level, and not split it up, too. Make the spell LESS powerful, and suddenly it, too, can be Intensified.
==Aelryinth
You didn't get the point. A core Wizard can drop anything with a single spell and two core feats. What doesn't come under Hold Monster, gets Black Tentacles, Baleful Polymorph or whatever else suits your fancy. Sure, Dragons have high Will saves. A level 10 Wizard can have easily DC around 20-25, meaning that a CR 10 Red Dragon is a toast 50% of time.
And your build requires half of my bookshelf and a DM who is willing to accept your interpretation of rules.
I used Orbs as one of the builds here.
The problem is the feat cost. It's extreme enough for Magic Missile and Scorching Ray.
Orb of Force is level 4, cap of 15d4.
So, 7th level before you even GET your signature spell. I suppose it gives you set up time.
You can't Admixture something that doesn't do Elemental Damage. So that option is out. Magic mIssile gets it via the FOrce Missile Mage PrC (which I use because it's one of the most balanced PrC's that came out of WoTC...it even got reprinted in the only annual Paizo did for 'em.) Note that I never brought in the Argent Savant for more Force Damage.
Your damage for your Orb isn't going to outpace a Lightning Bolt by much, because of the d4. Intensify is useless until level 14. The stronger effects, like Twin, vault you into the 6th and 7th level + or higher areas for spells. You'll never get a Double Doubled with a single spell in one round...you have to use Repeat spell, which automatically delays you a round. You have to revert to Elemental damage, in other words, to have any hope of one shot kills.
Ten feats is ALL your general feats. If you want to give up Metamagic efficiency, sure, you can devolve to higher slots. I was trying to stay away from that.
Furthermore, I'm using Magic Missile because I believe Intensify works with it...and even if it doesn't, it's effective enough, and you get it soon enough, that you can enjoy it for a considerable amount of your game play.
Your only other option is level 2 Orbs, which suck for damage, also. You're better off with Scorching Ray, which starts with TWICE the damage potential.
===================
You didn't get the point. A core Wizard can drop anything with a single spell and two core feats. What doesn't come under Hold Monster, gets Black Tentacles, Baleful Polymorph or whatever else suits your fancy. Sure, Dragons have high Will saves. A level 10 Wizard can have easily DC around 20-25, meaning that a CR 10 Red Dragon is a toast 50% of time.
And your build requires half of my bookshelf and a DM who is willing to accept your interpretation of rules.
I got the point perfectly. It's you who did not.
Basically, your point is:
1) You MUST use your highest level spells to be effective...half the time. THe other half of the time, you are useless.
2) You must use spells that are subject to spell resistance, further dropping down your effectiveness.
3) You need Greater Spell Focus in all 3 schools to be effective...that's six feats dealing with nothing but saves.
4) If the subject saves, makes their CMD, blinks out of your trap, has some sort of shapechanging ability, or immunity to the attack form, you may as well have not taken an action at all...you contributed NOTHING (except your party can't move through the Black Tentacles)
5) You're using the same tools ANY wizard can use...including me. Ergo, I can do this too...so how am I missing out on anything?
As an alternative, you could have done 200 pts dmg to him, then followed up with another 100. If you didn't kill the foe, it's still down 300 hp...no wasted actions. The fighter or archer can now take him out on their turn.
And all your higher level slots are STILL OPEN to do stuff like that, in addition to being able to bring the damage like this guy who gets +2 on his Spell DC's simply cannot do, ever.
YOURS is the build I'd call limited. You're just doing what every wizard can do, because of the nature of the spells involved. A blaster mage MUST build to be effective...no other wizard can blast effectively. And the blaster can still cast the 'best spell' from the toolbox if he needs to.
So that's MY point. I can do everything you can do...at -2 to save DC's. Eh, many wizards NEVER BOTHER with Spell Focus feats. You cannot even get a shadow of the blasting damage that I can, without consuming your highest level slots.
So, this is no more a 'one-trick pony' then ANY spellcaster is. I don't HAVE to use my trick. But you had better be ready for when I do, because otherwise, you might get sudddenly dead. And if not...I've still got the entire toolbox sitting there to mess with you.
=========
As for Still Spell, Silent Spell, etc....yes, those would be GREAT to have for any Thesis build. The problem is feat cost. Unless you're playing a particular kind of campaign, it never really becomes an issue, because you're building towards dmg, not subtlety. Now, if the DM lets you train bonus feats...oh, Hell YEAH. Grab those 0 level Exalted feats for extra dmg against undead and evil outsiders, while you're at at, too!
And if so, just what spell would you use your THesis on, that you'd apply those feats to? the only one flexible enough that springs to mind is Telekinesis...and I hate having to burn higher-level slots for magic.
==Aelryinth
You raise me a blaster build made using ten 3.5 splats and some liberal rules interpretation, I raise you a core Wizard with GSF and Hold Monster.I counter raise with an undead, an ooze, a vermin, a construct,and many outsiders, dragons, and NPC's with Good Will saves. Great, you just MIGHT get your spell off on anyone and everyone else. And if it fails you succeeded at nothing.
That tactic is only good on things that reliably have poor Will saves...which is hardly a majority of your foes.
Damage, however, works against just about everything.
Hmm. Be easy to underpower Scorching Ray, reduce dmg to d6/level, and not split it up, too. Make the spell LESS powerful, and suddenly it, too, can be Intensified.
==Aelryinth
You didn't get the point. A core Wizard can drop anything with a single spell and two core feats. What doesn't come under Hold Monster, gets Black Tentacles, Baleful Polymorph or whatever else suits your fancy. Sure, Dragons have high Will saves. A level 10 Wizard can have easily DC around 20-25, meaning that a CR 10 Red Dragon is a toast 50% of time.
And your build requires half of my bookshelf and a DM who is willing to accept your interpretation of rules.
Dropping the monsters with a single spell is dependent on said monster failing a save. Personally, I wouldn't bank a character's tactics on a even a 50/50 shot, which is optimistic most of the time. I'll stick with damage.
Don't even try to get me started on the City Nuke archetype...which is what youa re trying to do! :) Don't think I don't know how that doesn't work!
==Aelryinth
Apologies, I must have missed the d4/caster level of the Orb of Force (knew it had the caster level 10 cap but thought it was still d6!), that isn't very helpful then.
If you can boost up your caster level excessively then metamagiced up Force Missiles (Spell Compendium) becomes an option, because there is no caster level cap on the number of missiles you can get. You could combine that with Alternate Spell Source to make your Arcane spells Divine (because it is usually easier to boost your Divine caster level than your Arcane one).
Another cool option would be a metamagic enhanced Sending. If you take Snowcasting you can give the Sending the [Cold] descriptor which allows you to add the Frost Spell metamagic to it - making it do 1 damage/caster level. Add Energy Admixture, Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, then add Fell Drain into the mix and you have a Sending that does 8 damage/caster level + 4 negative levels at infinite range!
Wait!Wait!Wait!...no Locate City?
I question a few things:
1) Feasibility: While it looks nice on paper, is this something that an organic character would have in an ongoing campaign? As DM, I don't like to make my campaigns so predictable that the players know exactly which feats and magic items they are going to have at any given point. I don't have any problems with them creating fun builds but I also know that no initial character build survives one of my campaigns intact.
2) When I switched to Pathfinder, I pretty much ditched 3.5. I did this for many reasons, one of which is exactly what you are doing. I want my players to be able to create fun, playable characters that don't require dozens of books each requiring my approval every step of the way.
3) There are way to many assumptions, like the orb spells and your interpretation of magic missile. I have never seen a DM allow someone to prep "orb" and allow someone to determine the element when they cast the spell. I also agree with everyone's interpretation of missiles per level and damage dice per level. Each missile deals a certain amount of damage the spell does not deal a certain amount of damage per level. You'll notice that the spell very specifically states that you get one missile per 2 levels that can be fired at one target or multiple targets. If you want to allow this in your games, that's fine but the rules do no support your conclusion.
4) How much of an investment is all of this? The metamagic rods don't come cheap especially if you are limited to no more than half your money spent on a single item. Is this cost effective at appropriate levels?
Also, just something to note, spells that require spell resistance only need to be checked once even if multiple rays or missiles target the creature (Core Book page 565).
1) like any build, feasibility is what you make of it. If you want to build an effective magic missiler, this is a build for it. It's not dependent on magic items. You take it as you go, and spend money on your defenses. Feats are PC choice, gear and gold availability is DM choice.
2) Force Missile Mage is posted online...it's considered one of the best PrC's that were invented. Metamagic Spell and Efficient Metamagic are from Dragon Magazine during Paizo's run.
3) It's my experience with Orbs. If your DM is going to force you to pick your element, more power to him...don't use that spell (unless you like being stuck in one element). If you're stuck in one element, best to use Scorching Ray. You get it sooner, and it scales nicely.
3b) I don't agree with their interpretation of the feat. I consider 'other effects' to be things that generate saves, or set things on fire, or do push effects, or whatever. The missile is the spell's mode of conveying damage. By their logic, an Intensified Chain Lightning is impossible, because it would also arc to more targets once it exceeded base Hit Dice. Getting extra targets is part of the spell, it's not a supplement.
4)Your only cash investment would be a Lesser Metamagic Rod or two. Remember, you are only using a level 1 or 2 spell...you don't need to spring for the big ones. Other money can be spent on Rings of Wizardry or Pearls of Power or whatnot.
Note: That is correct. But it needs to be checked on each casting, too. A MM build is ONLY truly susceptible to spell resistance, so Assay Spell Resistance from the PH2 IS going to be useful to you. If you aren't going to use it, I recommend Force Orb as a fallback secondary dmg spell against things with high Spell Resistance (always doing dmg is key).
==Aelryinth
By their logic, an Intensified Chain Lightning is impossible, because it would also arc to more targets once it exceeded base Hit Dice. Getting extra targets is part of the spell, it's not a supplement.
False on both counts. Care to try again?
By their logic, an Intensified Chain Lightning is impossible, because it would also arc to more targets once it exceeded base Hit Dice. Getting extra targets is part of the spell, it's not a supplement.False on both counts. Care to try again?
Your absolute statements keep getting you into trouble.
An Intensified Chain Lightning gets to hit a number of targets equal to Caster level (maximum 20), doing dmg equal to caster level in d6's, max 25d6.
An INtensified Magic Missile gets to hit a number of targets equal to CL/2, doing 2-5 spread out as you like, max of 5 at cl 10. Thematically, there is NO DIFFERENCE.
What you argued was that Magic Missile couldn't be restricted to 5 targets max. Okay...by that logic, Chain lightning couldn't be restricted to 20 targets. Since Magic Missile can't be limited to 5, Chain Lightning can't be limited to 20, which makes Intensified Chain Lightning as Impossible as Intensifed Magic Missile...by your logic.
It's the same bloody thing, and it doesn't work.
==Aelryinth
No, it isn't the same thing.
Chain lightning deals caster level d6 damage to several targets. Because its damage is expressed as "1d6 per caster level (maximum 20d6)", it is a valid target for Intensify Spell. Intensify will not increase the number of targets, because all it does is increase the "maximum 20d6" cap to "maximum 25d6".
Magic missile deals 1d4+1 damage per missile. Nowhere is "1d4+1 per caster level" or any similar wording used, except when stating how many missiles there are. Since Intensify only increases the damage cap, and since the damage dealt by a magic missile spell is strictly based on the number of missiles, Intensify cannot enhance magic missile.