| 8 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. |
Hello Everyone,
Here is the description of the Trip special weapon quality:
"Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped." - PRPG Core Rulebook, p. 145
My reading tells me two things about weapons with the Trip quality:
1. Trip weapons allow you to make trip attacks.
2. Trip weapons may be dropped to avoid being tripped during your own trip attempt.
This confuses me. If 1 is true, then that tells me that only Trip weapons may be used to make trip attempts. Other weapons, like longsword and unarmed strike, are not Trip weapons, and thus would not be used to make a trip attempt. Also, the Disarm quality says it gives you a bonus on Disarm attempts, but it does NOT say it gives you the ability to disarm with the weapon. Trip does not mention any such bonus--it merely says that you can us it to make trip attacks.
If 2 is true, then that tells me that if you try to trip someone with a non-trip weapon then you cannot avoid being tripped by dropping the weapon. So, if you try to trip with a longsword and fail by 10 or more then you are automatically tripped because a longsword is not a Trip weapon and thus cannot be dropped to avoid a trip. Why would you be able to drop a kama but not a longsword to avoid being tripped?
Both of these things sound wrong to me. If both of them are wrong then what exactly does the Trip special weapon quality do for you?
Related to this, if 1 is true, then unarmed strikes cannot be used to make Trip attempts. Thus, a monk's regular unarmed strike attack cannot be use to make trip attempts. This doesn't seem correct, but the flurry of blows ability specifically points out that a flurry of blows attack can be used to make a trip attempt.
Can anyone out there clear up this confusion for me?
Thanks,
Atavar
Trip weapons allow you to make trip attempts with that weapon. You can always make trip attempts with your hands or feet.
If I am using a +3 longsword, and I make a trip attempts, I am using my hands or feet to trip, and I don't get the +3 bonus from the longsword.
If I am using a +3 whip, I can choose to make the trip attempt with the whip, and I get the weapon's +3 bonus to the attempt.
James Jacobs cleared this up not too long ago. Trip weapons are used in trip attempts. You can also do this unarmed. If you're trying to trip someone, you have to meet one of those two conditions. So if you've got a longsword in-hand, you'll need to switch weapons or use your other hand to trip. The two premises still work. Just don't take the idea of dropping a weapon to its logical conclusion during unarmed trip attempts unless the cleric's ready with a regenerate spell.
Yes, by the official errata, it is impossible to trip someone with a quarterstaff.
Just don't take the idea of dropping a weapon to its logical conclusion during unarmed trip attempts unless the cleric's ready with a regenerate spell.
I thought this only works with noses.
Just don't take the idea of dropping a weapon to its logical conclusion during unarmed trip attempts unless the cleric's ready with a regenerate spell.I thought this only works with noses.
Gotta be prepared for Rule Zero.
|
According to the PRD, a weapon with the trip feature offers the following advantsge (emphasis mine):
Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.The description for the trip maneuver says,
TripYou can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
The PRD says nothing about needing a weapon or aree hand to make a trip attack in place of a normal melee attack. Normally, Combat Expertise is a prerequisite for Improved Trip. This makes sense to me, since the improved defensive capability inherent in Combat Expertise could be used to prevent the AoO.
The way I read the rules and the posts here is that if I am not using a trip weapon, I make the trip attempt with my feet or something, and run the risk of being knocked prone myself if the trip fails. If I am wielding a trip weapon, I can use that weapon to make the trip attempt, and avoid the risk of being knocked prone by dropping the weapon if the attempt fails egregiously.
There was a gigantic thread about this a couple months ago. The ruling was that you need a trip weapon. Many of us dislike that ruling, and it makes some things wonky, but that is the current ruling. I do not play with it in my games.
There was a gigantic thread about this a couple months ago. The ruling was that you need a trip weapon. Many of us dislike that ruling, and it makes some things wonky, but that is the current ruling. I do not play with it in my games.
+1. Illogical and not even useful from a gamist point of view, let alone a simulationist one, but them's the breaks.
For those saying that you can use any kind of weapon to make a trip attempt...if one can make a trip attack with any kind of weapon, then why bother saying in the description of the Trip special weapon quality that you can use such a weapon to make a trip attempt? The Disarm description doesn't say that you can make disarm attempts with a Disarm weapon. Also, if the only advantage to a Trip weapon is that it allows you to drop the weapon to avoid being tripped from a badly failed trip attempt, then how does it make sense that a non-trip weapon can't be dropped to do the same thing?
For those saying that you can use your foot or something to make a trip attempt, where in the rules does it say that? Such attacks are unarmed strikes, I would think. Unarmed strikes are on the weapons table. They have the Non-lethal special quality; they do not have the Trip special quality. So, why do you think the rules allow for unarmed steaks to be used in trip attempts? Also, if unarmed strikes can always be used to make trip attempts, then why bother to mention in the monk flurry of blows ability that you can use unarmed strikes to make trip attempts during a flurry of blows? Wouldn't that already be a given?
As far as I know I've read everything there is to read about tripping in the Core Rulebook and the Errata, and I haven't found clear answers to my questions there. If there is something out there that documents an official (or even unofficial) ruling on this from the folks at Paizo then I'd love to see it!
Thanks again,
Atavar
Here is the thread in which James said you need a trip weapon As you can see, its 10 pages long and raises many of your same questions. I believe James comes in arround page 7. I can't really help you with answers. Like I said, the ruling produces some wonky results. I believe that any weapon should be able to trip, and that the special bennefit of a trip weapon is the ability to drop it. Really, I don't like that as the bennefit and wish they kept the +2 from 3.5.
Some of the other wonkiness I brought up that was never resolved:
You can replace a melee attack with a trip. If you use a reach weapon without the trip quality, can you trip at reach? If not, why can you not trip someone next to you while wielding a reach weapon but can if wearing armor spikes, since then you threaten them.
Trip never states that you are touching the creature. If it has some kind of resistance or penalty to physically touching it, are you considered touching it? I know they are not tripable, but mimics and gelatinous cubes come to mind for the types of resistances I am refering to.
Are you considered using an unarmed strike for trip if you do not have a trip weapon. If so, do bonuses to unarmed attacks count towards the trip, such as weapon focus. Also, do you provoke 2 attacks of opportunity if you are unprofficient with unarmed strike.
|
There was a gigantic thread about this a couple months ago. The ruling was that you need a trip weapon. Many of us dislike that ruling, and it makes some things wonky, but that is the current ruling. I do not play with it in my games.
Trip with a "trip" weapon, if the trip fails, drop it.
Trip without a "trip" weapon by using bodypart x (fill in the fluff as needed), and if you fail the trip, there is a chance that you are tripped in return.Ahh, found the thread in question:
Here is the quote:
My take:When you want to trip a foe, you don't normally use a weapon. Similarly, you don't normally use a weapon to bull rush, grapple, or overrun a foe. You just lash out with a leg sweep or whatever and try to trip the foe. Doing so is an attack, but that doesn't mean you need a weapon to make the attempt.
Now... SOME weapons (not all) allow you to use the weapon to trip a foe, thus giving you a slight advantage since if you mess up the trip attempt, you can just drop the weapon to "counter" the trip that comes back at you.
The thread is 461 posts long and got ugly.
|
|
Here is the thread in which James said you need a trip weapon As you can see, its 10 pages long and raises many of your same questions. I believe James comes in arround page 7. I can't really help you with answers. Like I said, the ruling produces some wonky results. I believe that any weapon should be able to trip, and that the special bennefit of a trip weapon is the ability to drop it. Really, I don't like that as the bennefit and wish they kept the +2 from 3.5.
Some of the other wonkiness I brought up that was never resolved:
You can replace a melee attack with a trip. If you use a reach weapon without the trip quality, can you trip at reach? If not, why can you not trip someone next to you while wielding a reach weapon but can if wearing armor spikes, since then you threaten them.Trip never states that you are touching the creature. If it has some kind of resistance or penalty to physically touching it, are you considered touching it? I know they are not tripable, but mimics and gelatinous cubes come to mind for the types of resistances I am refering to.
Are you considered using an unarmed strike for trip if you do not have a trip weapon. If so, do bonuses to unarmed attacks count towards the trip, such as weapon focus. Also, do you provoke 2 attacks of opportunity if you are unprofficient with unarmed strike.
Taking a look at something like the Barbed Devil
Barbed Defense (Su) A creature that strikes a hamatula with a melee weapon, an unarmed strike, or a natural weapon takes 1d8+6 points of piercing damage from the devil's barbs. Melee weapons with reach do not endanger a user in this way.
I think that a trip, bulls rush, etc that require physical contact would count as an attack for this. But there is nothing in RAW that states this, just my best guess on RAI.
For those saying that you can use your foot or something to make a trip attempt, where in the rules does it say that? Such attacks are unarmed strikes, I would think. Unarmed strikes are on the weapons table. They have the Non-lethal special quality; they do not have the Trip special quality. So, why do you think the rules allow for unarmed steaks to be used in trip attempts? Also, if unarmed strikes can always be used to make trip attempts, then why bother to mention in the monk flurry of blows ability that you can use unarmed strikes to make trip attempts during a flurry of blows? Wouldn't that already be a given?
Unarmed attacks are not trip weapons in a strict sense as a trip weapon can be dropped to avoid being tripped in return.
A truer reading is that you can make a trip attempt without a weapon, but if you do use a trip weapon you have the option of dropping that weapon to avoid being tripped if you fail by 5 or more.
A truer reading is that you can make a trip attempt without a weapon, but if you do use a trip weapon you have the option of dropping that weapon to avoid being tripped if you fail by 5 or more.
Exactly. There's nothing I know of anywhere in the rules that says a trip attempt must be attempted with a weapon. What's more:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.
Thus, a masterwork trip weapon would grant a +1 CMB bonus, for example. A Combat Expertise feat chain fighter could pretty easily scrape together a +3 CMB extra from masterwork trip weapon and feat choice by 2nd level.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
I think the problem is that there are really two kinds of trip, and they really should be talked about separately.
1. Somebody running past you at their maxiumum speed, or close to it. You can trip this guy with a piece of string. You can certainly trip him by sticking out a foot, or a quarterstaff, or a 2x4, or, well, anything.
2. Somebody standing in front of you, defensively protecting himself and doing his very best to keep himself centered, balanced, and out of your grasp. This guy is hard to trip. You can't simply trip him with a quarterstaff, for example. Sure, you could whack his leg with it, bruise him, even break bones - but that isn't a "trip". To trip this guy, you need to snag his leg, either using your own body (getting a foot behind him, or reaching down with your hands to grab his leg), or use a weapon capable of "snagging" his leg. A quarterstaff has nothing to snag with. Nor does a sword or club or mace or, well, most weapons. But a few weapons do have a suitable protrusion or hook shape that can "snag" your target's leg. And some weapons are flexible enough to wrap around a leg.
When people argue about tripping in general, some people shout and stomp about and claim that you can trip people with anything. And they're right - but only for the first kind of trip I described above.
But they're wrong for the second kind of trip. It's nearly impossible to "trip" someone per the second kind of trip I describe above unless you use the right tool for it (or if maybe they are terribly stupid and put themself off-balance enough for you to pull it off, which simply isn't a factor in our abstract combat system).
The game might be better off if we were to add a rule that anyone can trip an opponent running past them, using anything at hand (or foot) regardless of whether it could be used as a "trip" weapon. Might even be a bonus to this kind of trip since the opponent is likely moving too fast to do much about it.
And then we can simply clarify the original trip rule to make it clear that this is a trip against a more-or-less stationary (or cautiously moving) combatant and can only be made with natural attacks or appropriate weapons with the Trip designation.
At least from what I've read, those two changes/clarifications would probably eliminate all, or nearly all, of the disagreement.
stuff
The problem is that if you are well trained(IE I have improved trip feat), it is not that crazy for you to trip a guy with a foot sweep(IE no weapon).
A level 5 fighter with improved trip against a level 2 warrior. Even if the warrior is being very careful with his balance and not making it easy for the fighter, the fighter could still foot sweep his legs out from under him without needing any special weapons to do it.
|
|
There was a gigantic thread about this a couple months ago. The ruling was that you need a trip weapon. Many of us dislike that ruling, and it makes some things wonky, but that is the current ruling. I do not play with it in my games.
WTF?
So if I don't have a trip weapon, I cannot make a trip attack? Doesn't that directly go against the Trip special attack in 3.5 and PF?
The problem is that if you are well trained(IE I have improved trip feat), it is not that crazy for you to trip a guy with a foot sweep(IE no weapon).
Mechanics, effects, and fluff are not co-dependent. A trip attack has a certain mechanic: d20 + CMB vs. CMD. It's effect is simple: exceed CMD = target prone.
The fluff of how this happens doesn't much matter.
"Ragnar Staff-Fighter slips his quarterstaff between the orc's ankles as he shifts position, causing the orc to fall."
"Shaolin Leg-Sweeper drops into a spinning squat and takes the orc's legs out from under him with a Dragon Sweeps Tail maneuver."
"Grondo Big-Muscles grabs the orc by the throat, picks him up with one hand, and then slams him to the cavern floor."
It's all the same.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
The problem is that if you are well trained(IE I have improved trip feat), it is not that crazy for you to trip a guy with a foot sweep(IE no weapon).Mechanics, effects, and fluff are not co-dependent. A trip attack has a certain mechanic: d20 + CMB vs. CMD. It's effect is simple: exceed CMD = target prone.
The fluff of how this happens doesn't much matter.
"Ragnar Staff-Fighter slips his quarterstaff between the orc's ankles as he shifts position, causing the orc to fall."
"Shaolin Leg-Sweeper drops into a spinning squat and takes the orc's legs out from under him with a Dragon Sweeps Tail maneuver."
"Grondo Big-Muscles grabs the orc by the throat, picks him up with one hand, and then slams him to the cavern floor."
It's all the same.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
I know. I was more arguing against the idea that a level 5 fighter with improved trip must have a trip weapon to trip a level 2 warrior.
It seems perfectly reasonable to me that a skilled fighter can trip with just about anything in real life, but since the item they are using is not designed for tripping, they don't get any bonuses(weapon focus, enhancement, etc) to the trip attempt.
I know. I was more arguing against the idea that a level 5 fighter with improved trip must have a trip weapon to trip a level 2 warrior.
Oh, I got that. I'll go further: That 2nd-level warrior who doesn't have Improved Trip doesn't need a trip weapon to knock the 5th-level fighter prone. All he needs to do is survive the AoO and then beat the fighter's CMD. His odds might not be that good, but that doesn't mean he can't succeed.
:)
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
I know. I was more arguing against the idea that a level 5 fighter with improved trip must have a trip weapon to trip a level 2 warrior.Oh, I got that. I'll go further: That 2nd-level warrior who doesn't have Improved Trip doesn't need a trip weapon to knock the 5th-level fighter prone. All he needs to do is survive the AoO and then beat the fighter's CMD. His odds might not be that good, but that doesn't mean he can't succeed.
:)
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Or be really big and thus have a ton of strength + size + reach....
Or be really big and have a ton of strength + size + reach....
I like the way you think. :)
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
There was a gigantic thread about this a couple months ago. The ruling was that you need a trip weapon. Many of us dislike that ruling, and it makes some things wonky, but that is the current ruling. I do not play with it in my games.WTF?
So if I don't have a trip weapon, I cannot make a trip attack? Doesn't that directly go against the Trip special attack in 3.5 and PF?
My take: If you want to trip with a weapon it needs to have the trip special quality. Otherwise you're assumed to be tripping with some part of you that isn't your weapon (foot sweep, hip toss, etc). The reason it isn't specified that those trip attempts are "unarmed" is that you can conceivably do both of those moves (foot sweep, hip toss) and a host of others with full hands. You're just not using the stuff in your hands to do it.
The fluff of how this happens doesn't much matter.
"Ragnar Staff-Fighter slips his quarterstaff between the orc's ankles as he shifts position, causing the orc to fall."
Agreed, except that weapon modifiers potentially add to the trip attempt, i.e. d20+CMB+weapon mod v. CMD. In the case of the quarterstaff wielder, Ragnar would not be able to add his weapon bonuses (Weapon Focus if he's got it, masterwork or enhancements on the staff) to the check.
From the SRD: "Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."
Yeah, it ain't perfect, but it's hardly the worst mechanic I've ever seen, and there should be some clear advantage in tripping someone if my weapon has some sort of hook on it.
That all being said, play the game in the way that you think is fun!
:)
J
Agreed, except that weapon modifiers potentially add to the trip attempt, i.e. d20+CMB+weapon mod v. CMD. In the case of the quarterstaff wielder, Ragnar would not be able to add his weapon bonuses (Weapon Focus if he's got it, masterwork or enhancements on the staff) to the check.
Exactly. A character can trip with any weapon. He can't get extra bonuses with any weapon but a trip weapon.
Player: "Can I trip the orc with my quarterstaff?"
DM: "Sure, but there are no special weapon bonuses that apply because a quarterstaff isn't a trip weapon."
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
There was a gigantic thread about this a couple months ago. The ruling was that you need a trip weapon. Many of us dislike that ruling, and it makes some things wonky, but that is the current ruling. I do not play with it in my games.WTF?
So if I don't have a trip weapon, I cannot make a trip attack? Doesn't that directly go against the Trip special attack in 3.5 and PF?
My take: If you want to trip with a weapon it needs to have the trip special quality. Otherwise you're assumed to be tripping with some part of you that isn't your weapon (foot sweep, hip toss, etc). The reason it isn't specified that those trip attempts are "unarmed" is that you can conceivably do both of those moves (foot sweep, hip toss) and a host of others with full hands. You're just not using the stuff in your hands to do it.
The fluff of how this happens doesn't much matter.
"Ragnar Staff-Fighter slips his quarterstaff between the orc's ankles as he shifts position, causing the orc to fall."
Agreed, except that weapon modifiers potentially add to the trip attempt, i.e. d20+CMB+weapon mod v. CMD. In the case of the quarterstaff wielder, Ragnar would not be able to add his weapon bonuses (Weapon Focus if he's got it, masterwork or enhancements on the staff) to the check.
From the SRD: "Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."
Yeah, it ain't perfect, but it's hardly the worst mechanic I've ever seen, and there should be some clear advantage in tripping someone if my weapon has some sort of hook on it.
That all being said, play the game in the way that you think is fun!
:)
J
I would say that in the case of if you are using a non trip weapon(quarterstaff, unarmed attack, etc), you are improvising with that weapon. Since a quarterstaff and unarmed attacks are not designed to make trip attacks, you don't get any bonuses specific to those weapons(enhancement bonus, weapon focus, etc.).
This allows you to use whatever trip fluff you want while still adhering to the RAW.
|
|
Agreed, except that weapon modifiers potentially add to the trip attempt, i.e. d20+CMB+weapon mod v. CMD. In the case of the quarterstaff wielder, Ragnar would not be able to add his weapon bonuses (Weapon Focus if he's got it, masterwork or enhancements on the staff) to the check.Exactly. A character can trip with any weapon. He can't get extra bonuses with any weapon but a trip weapon.
Player: "Can I trip the orc with my quarterstaff?"
DM: "Sure, but there are no special weapon bonuses that apply because a quarterstaff isn't a trip weapon."
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Okay, that's what I thought. And as far as I know and remember, it will provoke AoO unless the person doing the tripping has Improved Trip.
Okay, that's what I thought. And as far as I know and remember, it will provoke AoO unless the person doing the tripping has Improved Trip.
Right, and that's true even with a trip weapon.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
WTF?
So if I don't have a trip weapon, I cannot make a trip attack? Doesn't that directly go against the Trip special attack in 3.5 and PF?
That's not what the ruling is. You can trip without any weapon at all. If you do so, however, you are at risk of being tripped yourself on a bad roll.
If you want to be able to drop the weapon instead of being tripped yourself on a bad roll, you need a "trip" weapon. Any bonuses you have with a normal attack using that weapon, also apply to the trip attempt.
A truer reading is that you can make a trip attempt without a weapon, but if you do use a trip weapon you have the option of dropping that weapon to avoid being tripped if you fail by 5 or more.
10 or more. You have to fail by 10 or more to be tripped in return.