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Can you use the Elemental Spell feat on spells that do untyped damage?
If so, what would happen if you used it on a Inflict Light Wounds (or greater) spell? Would it still heal undead, or would it not because it is no longer negative energy but something else (Fire for example).
Also, Searing Light, would it still do it's extra damage to undead and light sensitive creatures?
If it works exactly like the Archmage ability, no, you can't.
Untyped is not considered an element. And the only ones listed (again, from the Archmage prestige class) is Fire, Cold, Acid, Electricity and Sonic.
I thought it even excluded sonic, but I am not 100% sure..
I thought it even excluded sonic, but I am not 100% sure..
Well, and again with the ability from the Archmage prestige class, that one dones include sonic. But I can't speak for the Elemental feat in the APG.
However, if they got rid of Sonic, and with the +1 spell level, it would make it even worse than it already is.
Elemental Spell (Metamagic)
You can manipulate the elemental nature of your spells.Benefit: Choose one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You may replace a spell’s normal damage with that energy type or split the spell’s damage, so that half is of that energy type and half is of its normal type. An elemental spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you must choose a different energy type.
Emphasis mine.
The feat does not specify if the original spell had an energy type for damage.
I thought it even excluded sonic, but I am not 100% sure..Well, and again with the ability from the Archmage prestige class, that one dones include sonic. But I can't speak for the Elemental feat in the APG.
However, if they got rid of Sonic, and with the +1 spell level, it would make it even worse than it already is.
A flame blade as 3rd level spell, calling upon the element you need at the time of casting. A fireball dealing fire or ice can be potent against [fire] or [cold] subtypes, it gives a sorcerer quite some flexibility, not so much for a wizard though I think it is entirely acceptable to make new metamagic rods.
Elemental Spell (Metamagic)
You can manipulate the elemental nature of your spells.Benefit: Choose one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You may replace a spell’s normal damage with that energy type or split the spell’s damage, so that half is of that energy type and half is of its normal type. An elemental spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you must choose a different energy type.
Oh my, this is even worse than I thought. Not only does it have the +1 spell level, it 'doesn't' allow sonic, but the worst part is you have to take it for 'each' element.
Such a step down from the ability from the 3.5 Archmage.
Elemental Spell (Metamagic)
You can manipulate the elemental nature of your spells.Benefit: Choose one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You may replace a spell’s normal damage with that energy type or split the spell’s damage, so that half is of that energy type and half is of its normal type. An elemental spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you must choose a different energy type.
Oh my, this is even worse than I thought. Not only does it have the +1 spell level, it 'doesn't' allow sonic, but the worst part is you have to take it for 'each' element.
Such a step down from the ability from the 3.5 Archmage.
It also can't be done spontaneously, like the Archmage ability. It's actually not even the Archmage ability at all, it's Energy Substitution with a +1 level adjustment added.
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I can see it come in handy for characters that benefit from another elemental type, such as sorcerers with the draconic bloodline.
If you really want to be a master of switching between various elements, check out the admixture subschool of evocation. It's awesome, and about time that evocation specialists got some love.
It also can't be done spontaneously, like the Archmage ability. It's actually not even the Archmage ability at all, it's Energy Substitution with a +1 level adjustment added.
Elemental Spell (Metamagic)
You can manipulate the elemental nature of your spells.Benefit: Choose one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You may replace a spell’s normal damage with that energy type or split the spell’s damage, so that half is of that energy type and half is of its normal type. An elemental spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you must choose a different energy type.
Oh my, this is even worse than I thought. Not only does it have the +1 spell level, it 'doesn't' allow sonic, but the worst part is you have to take it for 'each' element.
Such a step down from the ability from the 3.5 Archmage.
Well see, when the discussion came up months ago about why the Archmage was removed (at least the discussion I was involved with), it was indicated by some of the Paizo staff that we will probably see the Archmage abilities transfer over to APG.
But this, it’s not even close. Like you said, it is more like Energy Substitution from 3.5. Which I never liked due to the same limitations Elemental Spell has.
As for not being able to cast spontaneously, you are right, unless you have the Arcane Bloodline for the Sorceror. But even still, this feat is totally not worth it now. I was looking for an Archmage substitution, and this is definitely not it.
Well see, when the discussion came up months ago about why the Archmage was removed (at least the discussion I was involved with), it was indicated by some of the Paizo staff that we will probably see the Archmage abilities transfer over to APG.
I know. I'm agreeing with you :) I'm saying Elemental Spell only vaguely resembles the Archmage arcana and is actually worse than Energy Substitution (which was one of the few metamagics that even approached being decent, mainly because it was a +0 adjustment).
Well see, when the discussion came up months ago about why the Archmage was removed (at least the discussion I was involved with), it was indicated by some of the Paizo staff that we will probably see the Archmage abilities transfer over to APG.I know. I'm agreeing with you :) I'm saying Elemental Spell only vaguely resembles the Archmage arcana and is actually worse than Energy Substitution (which was one of the few metamagics that even approached being decent, mainly because it was a +0 adjustment).
Energy Substitution was only a +0? Ok, had to be some other reason(s) why I did not like it. Usuable only once a day or something along those lines?
I am pretty sure one of the reasons I didn’t like it was I believe you had to burn a feat for each energy type (like with Elemental Spell).
And sorry to dredge up this old discussion, but the whole argument of “the Archmage is just a high level Wizard/Sorceror” is hogwash in my opinion. For those supporting the removal of the Archmage because they didn’t like the name, then it could have been called something else.
But to say that a high level Wizard/Sorceror is mechanically the same as what the Archmage gave us, especially now seeing the Elemental Spell feat (guessing Shaping will be something similar), is certainly far from the truth.
Energy Substitution was only a +0? Ok, had to be some other reason(s) why I did not like it. Usuable only once a day or something along those lines?
I am pretty sure one of the reasons I didn’t like it was I believe you had to burn a feat for each energy type (like with Elemental Spell).
Yeah, it was +0, and yeah, you had to take it per energy type. It's a pre-req for Lord of the Uttercold, though (I think Born of Three Thunders, too), and I love me that metamagic feat.
And sorry to dredge up this old discussion, but the whole argument of “the Archmage is just a high level Wizard/Sorceror” is hogwash in my opinion. For those supporting the removal of the Archmage because they didn’t like the name, then it could have been called something else.
I've been beating on this drum for over a year, myself.
But to say that a high level Wizard/Sorceror is mechanically the same as what the Archmage gave us, especially now seeing the Elemental Spell feat (guessing Shaping will be something similar), is certainly far from the truth.
Shaping is another +1 adjustment metamagic.
You should take into account that these abilities are available to much lower-level characters than the corresponding 3.5 archmage abilities. Thus it is perfectly sensible that they are less powerful. I don not think these are intended as a direct replacement.
Well yes, that is obvious now. But was not clear earlier on when it was said that some of the Archmage abilities will make an appearance in APG.
And to be honest? I would have much rather they gave the much higher prereq. cost, to replace the abilities, than to nerf the feats like this and have less prereqs.
I would have been just fine if they duplicated the strict prereqs to attain the prestige class of the Archmage and the sacrifice of the spell slot along with it.
But, that is obviously not going to be the case now.
Like I said, the ability for the admixture specialized wizard is what you guys want. You can change any evocation spell with an elemental subtype to another at no penalty at all, and his level 8 ability is even more awesome .
Like I said, the ability for the admixture specialized wizard is what you guys want. You can change any evocation spell with an elemental subtype to another at no penalty at all, and his level 8 ability is even more awesome .
To be honest, I am not even sure where that is. Could you provide a link?
And besides, my favorite between the two Arcane base classes is the Sorceror. I just much prefer the flexibility and larger quanitity of spell slots. Yes, you have less spells, but I haven't had an issue of being short on spell selection yet.
Like I said, the ability for the admixture specialized wizard is what you guys want. You can change any evocation spell with an elemental subtype to another at no penalty at all, and his level 8 ability is even more awesome .To be honest, I am not even sure where that is. Could you provide a link?
And besides, my favorite between the two Arcane base classes is the Sorceror. I just much prefer the flexibility and larger quanitity of spell slots. Yes, you have less spells, but I haven't had an issue of being short on spell selection yet.
Admixture is a subschool of evocation that appears in the APG. Its abilities replace force missile and elemental wall. The first ability can be used 3 + int modifier per day, and allows you to change evocation spells that deal acid, cold, electricity or fire damage into one of the four energy types.
If you're looking for a sorcerer alternative, elemental spell is the only option you have, though.
If you're looking for a sorcerer alternative, elemental spell is the only option you have, though.Like I said, the ability for the admixture specialized wizard is what you guys want. You can change any evocation spell with an elemental subtype to another at no penalty at all, and his level 8 ability is even more awesome .To be honest, I am not even sure where that is. Could you provide a link?
And besides, my favorite between the two Arcane base classes is the Sorceror. I just much prefer the flexibility and larger quanitity of spell slots. Yes, you have less spells, but I haven't had an issue of being short on spell selection yet.
Right, and then we are back to what I said before.
Well see, when the discussion came up months ago about why the Archmage was removed (at least the discussion I was involved with), it was indicated by some of the Paizo staff that we will probably see the Archmage abilities transfer over to APG.
But this, it’s not even close. Like you said, it is more like Energy Substitution from 3.5. Which I never liked due to the same limitations Elemental Spell has.
As for not being able to cast spontaneously, you are right, unless you have the Arcane Bloodline for the Sorceror. But even still, this feat is totally not worth it now. I was looking for an Archmage substitution, and this is definitely not it.
Actually its more like a cross between Energy Substitution and Energy admixture which allowed you to have a spell do two types of Energy damage which was +3 to spell level so this one is very nice at only +1
Admixture doubled the damage, though. This one doesn't change the damage amount at all.
Admixture doubled the damage, though. This one doesn't change the damage amount at all.Wasn't the energy admixture metamagic feat +3 or +4 to spell level?
yes It was +4 (P.78 Complete Arcane)so again very nice feat for only +1
yes It was +4 (P.78 Complete Arcane)so again very nice feat for only +1
Except that it really isn't. Admixture and the feat from the APG do completely different things. The better comparison, as has been said, is Energy Substitution, which was a +0 adjustment feat. What does a half-cold-half-fire fireball really get you that an all-cold fireball doesn't? Paying +1 adjustment for the option to do nothing useful ... well, it isn't useful.
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It would be useful to non spontaneous spell casters under one interpretation - you prepare a fireball [elemental spell - electricity] and then run into creatures immune to electricity. Cast it anyways and choose to take half the damage as fire.
Not entirely clear when you have to make the decision as to admixture or full substitution. (at least not for me at this time of night) - And very situational.
Except that it really isn't. Admixture and the feat from the APG do completely different things. The better comparison, as has been said, is Energy Substitution, which was a +0 adjustment feat. What does a half-cold-half-fire fireball really get you that an all-cold fireball doesn't? Paying +1 adjustment for the option to do nothing useful ... well, it isn't useful.
yes It was +4 (P.78 Complete Arcane)so again very nice feat for only +1
But for Elemental Sorcerers this feat allows them to adjust many of their spell that have a locked elemental effects and allows for the ability to harm mixed groups of opponents that may have vulnerabilities to different elemental effects or possible protection from those effects nothing worst than a group of trolls lead by a troll fighter with a ring of fire resistance and a good reflex save and all yo have are fire spells
But for Elemental Sorcerers this feat allows them to adjust many of their spell that have a locked elemental effects and allows for the ability to harm mixed groups of opponents that may have vulnerabilities to different elemental effects or possible protection from those effects nothing worst than a group of trolls lead by a troll fighter with a ring of fire resistance and a good reflex save
And, once again, it's worse at doing that than Energy Substitution, which wasn't all that hot a feat to start with. It's a pretty crappy feat.
But for Elemental Sorcerers this feat allows them to adjust many of their spell that have a locked elemental effects and allows for the ability to harm mixed groups of opponents that may have vulnerabilities to different elemental effects or possible protection from those effects nothing worst than a group of trolls lead by a troll fighter with a ring of fire resistance and a good reflex save and all yo have are fire spellsExcept that it really isn't. Admixture and the feat from the APG do completely different things. The better comparison, as has been said, is Energy Substitution, which was a +0 adjustment feat. What does a half-cold-half-fire fireball really get you that an all-cold fireball doesn't? Paying +1 adjustment for the option to do nothing useful ... well, it isn't useful.
yes It was +4 (P.78 Complete Arcane)so again very nice feat for only +1
As someone who likes to play Sorcerors, I would never take this feat because of the +1. And for the same reason I have already stated. It's just not worth losing castings of my next level utility spells because I want to cast that big bang spell at a different element.
Now I would have taken this feat if they made it a +0, but maybe put a limitation of at least third level caster. Or you can pick another limitation if you don't think that is deterimental enough. But that spell level would need to come down to +0 for me to even consider taking it.
As someone who likes to play Sorcerors, I would never take this feat because of the +1. And for the same reason I have already stated. It's just not worth losing castings of my next level utility spells because I want to cast that big bang spell at a different element.
It could be useful, say, if you're fighting devils, and all you have is fire damage.
As someone who likes to play Sorcerors, I would never take this feat because of the +1. And for the same reason I have already stated. It's just not worth losing castings of my next level utility spells because I want to cast that big bang spell at a different element.It could be useful, say, if you're fighting devils, and all you have is fire damage.
Yes, of course it could be. But just about any feat you are going to find situations where you will find a use for. And as for having only fire damage, I have never let myself get in that position. Even as a Sorceror, I have multiple elements to cast at my disposal. May not be all of them due to my limited spell selection, but I would never have all Fire/Cold/Acid, etc. spells.
When I select a feat, I ask myself “How often/consistently will I be using this feat? Is it once every few sessions? Usable only once a day?” The frequency of the feats usefulness is number one priority to me, the ones that I will use constantly are the ones I will choose. The only exception to this rule is if I am choosing a feat as a prereq. for another feat or a prestige class.
The +1 (or worse ones with higher + spell levels) are not ones I will use constantly, or really, all that much, due to the spell level limitation.
It would have been ok if the feat also added +1 damage per die of damage or something similar. A 10d6+10 stream of fire, based on lightning bolt would be neat even for a 4th level spell slot. The half/ half thing not so cool.
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Elemental Spell (Metamagic)
You can manipulate the elemental nature of your spells.Benefit: Choose one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You may replace a spell’s normal damage with that energy type or split the spell’s damage, so that half is of that energy type and half is of its normal type. An elemental spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you must choose a different energy type.
Does that mean that an Admonishing Ray can be changed with Elemental Spell to infligt elemental damage rather than non-lethal damage?
Bump this. I think the point may have been missed here. The spell doesn't just convert energy damage to another type, it seems to take ANY spell's damage (of any type?) and convert it to the chosen energy type. This would seem to include bludgeoning, piercing, any generic damage, and perhaps even non-lethal damage. For a +1 level adjustment, that is sick. Taking this meta a couple times would empower a large group of spells to take advantage of elemental weaknesses, or overcome physical damage reduction. That is completely worth a +1 LA. Would like to see a ruling on it.
Bump this. I think the point may have been missed here. The spell doesn't just convert energy damage to another type, it seems to take ANY spell's damage (of any type?) and convert it to the chosen energy type. This would seem to include bludgeoning, piercing, any generic damage, and perhaps even non-lethal damage. For a +1 level adjustment, that is sick. Taking this meta a couple times would empower a large group of spells to take advantage of elemental weaknesses, or overcome physical damage reduction. That is completely worth a +1 LA. Would like to see a ruling on it.
Spells already overcome Damage Reduction, even if they deal "physical" damage (slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning). Going from untyped damage to typed damage is not usually a benefit, either, as there are more things that resist <foo> typed damage than there are that are weak to it, and if you need acid or fire for anti-regeneration duty, that's what cantrips are for.
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replace a spell’s normal damage with that energy type or split the spell’s damage, so that half is of that energy type and half is of its normal typeEmphasis mine.
The feat to me requires the original spell to have a type, so it comes down to what type exist? DM may rule that type is the standard 5 or the standard 5 and the two life energies.
If you did allow it to convert negative energy to fire, then it wouldn't heal undead any more but it would have a will save for half the now fire energy.