Size matters

[Steven Morgan]

ok guys and gals got a question i see needs answering.first off here
the spells say this. ( question at the bottom )
Pg.330 core rule book
Reduce Person
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (a pinch of powdered iron)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one humanoid creature
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
This spell causes instant diminution of a humanoid creature,
halving its height, length, and width and dividing its weight by
8. This decrease changes the creature’s size category to the next
smaller one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Dexterity, a –2
size penalty to Strength (to a minimum of 1), and a +1 bonus on
attack rolls and AC due to its reduced size.
A Small humanoid creature whose size decreases to Tiny has
a space of 2-1/2 feet and a natural reach of 0 feet (meaning that
it must enter an opponent’s square to attack). A Large humanoid
creature whose size decreases to Medium has a space of 5 feet
and a natural reach of 5 feet. This spell doesn’t change the
target’s speed.
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly reduced
by the spell.
Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage. Other magical
properties are not affected by this spell. Any reduced item that leaves
the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown
weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown
weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based
on the size of the weapon that fired them).
Multiple magical effects that reduce size do not stack. Reduce
person counters and dispels enlarge person.
Reduce person can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

pg 229 advanced players guide
Gravity Bow
School transmutation; Level ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
Gravity bow significantly increases the weight and density of
arrows or bolts fired from your bow or crossbow the instant
before they strike their target and then return them to normal
a few moments later. Any arrow fired from a bow or crossbow
you are carrying when the spell is cast deals damage as if one
size larger than it actually is. For instance, an arrow fired from
a Medium longbow normally deals 1d8 points of damage,
but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if fired from
a gravity bow (see page 145 of the Core Rulebook for more
information). Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone
else uses your bow to make an attack the arrows deal damage
as normal for their size.

ok now for the question if i have a 1st lvl elf sorcerer with these 2 spells and i cast them both on myself the both have a duration of 1 minute. the question is what happens to an arrow fired from the longbow?

thoughts comments pls.
I see it going many ways.

[Kierato]

Your arrows Would deal 1d8 IMO as they would normally deal 1d6 from your bow.

[Fake Healer]

Boy is that some arbitrary crap.
Enlarge person doesn't allow projectiles to do more damage based on size but Reduce Person (the flip-side of the coin) DOES make the projectiles do damage based on size....If projectiles return to normal size for one spell when fired, then why doesn't it work that way for the other?
Bad Form on that....

[Mok]

Kierato wrote:

Your arrows Would deal 1d8 IMO as they would normally deal 1d6 from your bow.

I'd argue the opposite. The arrow would do 2d6.

The Reduce Person Spell says:

PRD wrote:

Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

So the reduced person elf would have a bow that does 1d6 damage, but as soon as the arrow is shot it would pop up to its normal size, causing 1d8 damage. Then the gravity bow would kick in just before impact, upping the damage to 2d6.

If the gravity bow effect kicked in before the bow was fired, then things would be different.

[Name Violation]

Mok wrote:

Kierato wrote:

Your arrows Would deal 1d8 IMO as they would normally deal 1d6 from your bow.

I'd argue the opposite. The arrow would do 2d6.

The Reduce Person Spell says:

PRD wrote:

Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

So the reduced person elf would have a bow that does 1d6 damage, but as soon as the arrow is shot it would pop up to its normal size, causing 1d8 damage. Then the gravity bow would kick in just before impact, upping the damage to 2d6.

If the gravity bow effect kicked in before the bow was fired, then things would be different.

prd wrote:

(projectiles deal damage based

on the size of the weapon that fired them).

so its a d8. all you're doing is effectively countering the smaller damage

[Steven Morgan]

Name Violation wrote:

Mok wrote:

Kierato wrote:

Your arrows Would deal 1d8 IMO as they would normally deal 1d6 from your bow.

I'd argue the opposite. The arrow would do 2d6.

The Reduce Person Spell says:

PRD wrote:

Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

So the reduced person elf would have a bow that does 1d6 damage, but as soon as the arrow is shot it would pop up to its normal size, causing 1d8 damage. Then the gravity bow would kick in just before impact, upping the damage to 2d6.

If the gravity bow effect kicked in before the bow was fired, then things would be different.

prd wrote:

(projectiles deal damage based

on the size of the weapon that fired them).

so its a d8. all you're doing is effectively countering the smaller damage

and that my friends is the real question im asking. in size matters.

If the arrow does the damage or the bow? so if an arrow is launched from a bow of the right size it does its normal damage but the magic of a spell increases the size to do more damage or decreases the size to do less damage or is it the size of the weapon that counts can it really act in both ways?

[Name Violation]

well according to the srd the bow has the damage listing, not the arrow

Longbow 75 gp 1d6 1d8 x3 100 ft. 3 lbs. P
Arrow(s), common (20) 1 gp — — — — 3 lbs. P

so its based off the bow damage, unless you wanna argue it does -

and the spell says damage based on weapon size. so its d8 (the now small sized weapon that counts as medium from the 2nd spell) or - since thats an arrows damage. take your pick

[Steven Morgan]

Name Violation wrote:

well according to the srd the bow has the damage listing, not the arrow

Longbow 75 gp 1d6 1d8 x3 100 ft. 3 lbs. P
Arrow(s), common (20) 1 gp — — — — 3 lbs. P

so its based off the bow damage, unless you wanna argue it does -

and the spell says damage based on weapon size. so its d8 (the now small sized weapon that counts as medium from the 2nd spell) or - since thats an arrows damage. take your pick

ok got to argue a little as the second spell says that the arrow ( not the bow) increases in size just before it hits to double the damamge then reverts to normal after hitting. so if doubleing the size of the arrow does that then an arrow shot from a small bow that reverts to its original size should do its orignal damage should it not?

[Daniel Moyer]

Medium Creature, Reduced to a Small Creature

Small Longbow fires arrows that deal 1d6 damage.

(projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them)

Gravity bow increases the damage one category... 1d6 to 1d8

The fact that the arrow is normal size means nothing, the bow is not and Reduce Person puts it right out there for you... (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them)

[Steven Morgan]

Fake Healer wrote:

Boy is that some arbitrary crap.

Enlarge person doesn't allow projectiles to do more damage based on size but Reduce Person (the flip-side of the coin) DOES make the projectiles do damage based on size....If projectiles return to normal size for one spell when fired, then why doesn't it work that way for the other?
Bad Form on that....

ohh good point..

Enlarge Person pg 277-278 core rule book
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (powdered iron)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one humanoid creature
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling
its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes
the creature’s size category to the next larger one. The target
gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to
a minimum of 1), and a –1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its
increased size.
A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of
10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the
target’s speed.
If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the
creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a
Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures
in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the
materials enclosing it—the spell cannot be used to crush a creature
by increasing its size.
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged
by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more
damage (see page 145). Other magical properties are not affected
by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s
possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly
returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile
weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged
items are not increased by this spell.
Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.
Enlarge person counters and dispels reduce person.
Enlarge person can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

see this one says that projectile weapons from a large bow reverts to normal size dealing normal damage.. so what way is it suppossed to be?

[Seeker of skybreak]

STEVEN MORGAN wrote:

Name Violation wrote:

so if doubleing the size of the arrow does that then an arrow shot from a small bow that reverts to its original size should do its orignal damage should it not?

I think the right answer is that both the bow and arrow affect the damage. You can't draw the small bow as far so it has less force behind it thus dealing 1d6 rather than its normal 1d8. Remember the arrow is normal sized, as the arrow leaves the bow it reverts to a normal sized arrow. Before the arrow strikes the target it enlarges which increases the damage to 1d8. If the arrow were to stay a mini arrow the damage would be 1d6.

- Jake

[Seeker of skybreak]

Steven Morgan wrote:

. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s

possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly
returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile
weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged
items are not increased by...

Maybe it's assumed that small and medium bows use the same sized arrows. Large bows cross into the realm of too large for a traditional arrow and are thus sized larger. While this seems gamist I can get my head around it somewhat. Plus I feel like precedence exists with other things regarding small and medium creatures being lumped into a group, while > large or < tiny are seperated.

Essentially the Large bow would release a large arrow that deals 2d6. But when the arrow leaves the bow it shrinks to a normal arrow which inflicts 1d8 which is increased back to it's original size before impact dealing 2d6 damage.

- Jake

[Steven Morgan]

Seeker of skybreak wrote:

Steven Morgan wrote:

. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s

possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly
returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile
weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged
items are not increased by...

Maybe it's assumed that small and medium bows use the same sized arrows. Large bows cross into the realm of too large for a traditional arrow and are thus sized larger. While this seems gamist I can get my head around it somewhat. Plus I feel like precedence exists with other things regarding small and medium creatures being lumped into a group, while > large or < tiny are seperated.

Essentially the Large bow would release a large arrow that deals 2d6. But when the arrow leaves the bow it shrinks to a normal arrow which inflicts 1d8 which is increased back to it's original size before impact dealing 2d6 damage.

- Jake

now now that cant be right as it clearly states that small weapons all do less damage than medium..

it cant be both ways here there has to be a middle ground that fixes this.. can we say errata time folks.. one of the spells has to change to match the other as far as the arrows/bolts leaving the small/large bow they both have to be either medium arrows doing normal damage or damage based on the saze of the new weapon.

[Name Violation]

the middle ground is agree small and medium arrows are the same size and interchangable. a long bow and a short bow use the same arrows. a small longbow is same size as a medium shortbow, and they use the same arrows

unless you have longbows and shortbow's use different ammo

[Seeker of skybreak]

Some clarity is needed, whether it is the size of the arrows shot or if an errata is required. The way that would seem to make the most sense is enlarge person allowing a damage increase for projectile weapons.

- Jake

[Steven Morgan]

Name Violation wrote:

the middle ground is agree small and medium arrows are the same size and interchangable. a long bow and a short bow use the same arrows. a small longbow is same size as a medium shortbow, and they use the same arrows

unless you have longbows and shortbow's use different ammo

well a small longbow is perhaps the size of a normal short bow but a small short bow is what? so yes you have to have arrows fitted to the proper size of the bow.. this is a fact of life go down to any bow shop in your town and they have differant size arrrows to match the different size bows.. that is just they way it goes..

( sorry ) im an archer and have 3 bows myself. and my kids have bows so yes its true..

[Steven Morgan]

Steven Morgan wrote:

Name Violation wrote:

the middle ground is agree small and medium arrows are the same size and interchangable. a long bow and a short bow use the same arrows. a small longbow is same size as a medium shortbow, and they use the same arrows

unless you have longbows and shortbow's use different ammo

well a small longbow is perhaps the size of a normal short bow but a small short bow is what? so yes you have to have arrows fitted to the proper size of the bow..

go down to any bow shop in your town and they have differant size arrrows to match the different size bows.. that is just they way it goes..

[Name Violation]

Steven Morgan wrote:

Name Violation wrote:

the middle ground is agree small and medium arrows are the same size and interchangable. a long bow and a short bow use the same arrows. a small longbow is same size as a medium shortbow, and they use the same arrows

unless you have longbows and shortbow's use different ammo

well a small longbow is perhaps the size of a normal short bow but a small short bow is what? so yes you have to have arrows fitted to the proper size of the bow.. this is a fact of life go down to any bow shop in your town and they have differant size arrrows to match the different size bows.. that is just they way it goes..

( sorry ) im an archer and have 3 bows myself. and my kids have bows so yes its true..

game doesnt perfectly mirror life. I havent seen any small size npc's with Small sized arrows. the entries always just say arrows

[Steven Morgan]

Name Violation wrote:

Steven Morgan wrote:

Name Violation wrote:

the middle ground is agree small and medium arrows are the same size and interchangable. a long bow and a short bow use the same arrows. a small longbow is same size as a medium shortbow, and they use the same arrows

unless you have longbows and shortbow's use different ammo

well a small longbow is perhaps the size of a normal short bow but a small short bow is what? so yes you have to have arrows fitted to the proper size of the bow.. this is a fact of life go down to any bow shop in your town and they have differant size arrrows to match the different size bows.. that is just they way it goes..

( sorry ) im an archer and have 3 bows myself. and my kids have bows so yes its true..

game doesnt perfectly mirror life. I havent seen any small size npc's with Small sized arrows. the entries always just say arrows

ok i'll give that to you about arrows,

but in the reduce person spell it clearly says that a projectile returns to its normal size as it does in enlarge person it says the same thing except now in the enlarge person entry it says that the arrow does damage at its original size and the reduce says it still does lower damage. i think both spells should work the same way. if an arrow fired from any weapon reverts to its original size should in fact do its normal damage not a smaller damage or a increased damage from a larger bow.
so what do you think?

[Steven Morgan]

come on people i need some more input here. please give me some ideas on what should be done about the Enlarge person spell verse the reduce person spell.

[Steven Morgan]

bump..

[Name Violation]

the spells say what they do. what are you asking for?

projectiles and size altering spells aren't very friendly to each other.

if it makes you feel better imaging the size shifting mid-flight (either way) causes drag on the arrow that makes it deal less damage

enlarge does nothing for damage (its same enlarged or not).
shrink is already giving you +2 to hit (1 from dex, 1 from size), its a trade off

Steven Morgan wrote:

so what do you think?

honestly i think you just wanna argue a munchkin point and twist words and intentions until someone agrees with you. Either use whats said, don't bother using it, or quit complaining IMHO