I used to play "Star Wars Saga" and in that system there was a talent in one of the PrC talent trees that allowed a character to add their dex bonus to damage rolls instead of strength. I was wondering if there is a PF feat or class ability that does the same thing.
I used to play "Star Wars Saga" and in that system there was a talent in one of the PrC talent trees that allowed a character to add their dex bonus to damage rolls instead of strength. I was wondering if there is a PF feat or class ability that does the same thing.
Nope, there is no such thing. Duelists may add Int to damage IIRC, though.
There's a feat (Dervish Dance) in the Qadira guidebook that allows you to add Dex to damage (instead of Str) when using a scimitar.
There isn't though if you get at least str 13 for power attack, you can pretty much ignore strength and get decent damage still along with all the benefits a high dex gives.
I don't think it should be something encouraged too much, high strength characters should be allowed to hit hard, dexterity has alot of other benefits mechanically quite a bit more notable, reflex saves, initiative, skill bonus, AC bonus and feat prerequistes.
A specifically tailored fighter archetype might work fine for a more dexterity based warrior type, but plainly adding dexterity to damage is like adding constitution to AC, it is rather prone to abuse for a feat.
Rumblings have been heard of a feat in the APG that covers this..and I can't for the life off me remember which thread I saw that in.
I used to play "Star Wars Saga" and in that system there was a talent in one of the PrC talent trees that allowed a character to add their dex bonus to damage rolls instead of strength. I was wondering if there is a PF feat or class ability that does the same thing.
They are official 3.5 options, but not in PF.
Examples:Shadowblade technique (in Tome of battle)
Champion of Coreliathan Prestige class (that elven god)
|
If adding Dex to damage were a feat or other finite resource, the advantage gained by consolidating your stat bonuses would be balanced out by the fact that a Dex fighter will always be 2 feats behind the strength-based one...one feat for Weapon Finesse, and one feat for add-Dex-to-damage. 2 feats is a lot, especially at low levels.
The problem with the "advantages of Dex" is that many of them can be bypassed by doing something else a typical fighter would do. A rogue can have an 18 AC by wearing a chain shirt, and having an 18 Dex. A fighter can have a 20 AC by wearing full plate and having a 12 dex. A fighter can take Improved Init, and the only way an already feat-starved Dex fighter can keep ahead is to take Improved Init as well. All that a melee fighter with a high Dex comes out ahead in is movement rate.
Personally, to increase the importance of Dex, I used the rules from UA for class and level based dodge bonuses to AC, and made it so armor gives you DR and does not make you harder to hit. Therefore, a lightly-armored, high Dex fighter has an absurd AC, but less ability to deal or take damage, while the heavy armor fighters can deal and take a lot of punishment, but face the attrition factor of never being able to entirely avoid hits. There's now a nice balance between Dex fighters and Str fighters, the only thing that seems to have broken in the process is Two-Weapon Fighting, which is feeling a bit underpowered now.
EDIT: My games have gotten a lot of mileage out of Shadow Blade and the Swashbuckler class (which allows you to add Int to damage) without breaking the game too hard. The major factor is that it's such an investment of feats and class levels that someone who is looking to totally maximize damage output is still going to be a Fighter or Barbarian with an absurd strength, and the best fighter in my home game is still the Plate-wearing Crusader (Paladin-like class from Tome of Battle) who dishes out and absorbs an insane amount of damage. What adding Dex or Int to damage really helps out with is making the character who dump-statted (or even just didn't min/max) Strength into an acceptable combatant who isn't totally useless when the swords come out.
I'm hoping the APG does have a Dex-to-damage feat so I don't need to keep advising my players who like fencers and assassins to search through a 10 pound pile of 3.5 books for that one feat. It would be nice to have something a bit closer to "core".
If adding Dex to damage were a feat or other finite resource, the advantage gained by consolidating your stat bonuses would be balanced out by the fact that a Dex fighter will always be 2 feats behind the strength-based one...one feat for Weapon Finesse, and one feat for add-Dex-to-damage. 2 feats is a lot, especially at low levels.
The problem with the "advantages of Dex" is that many of them can be bypassed by doing something else a typical fighter would do. A rogue can have an 18 AC by wearing a chain shirt, and having an 18 Dex. A fighter can have a 20 AC by wearing full plate and having a 12 dex. A fighter can take Improved Init, and the only way an already feat-starved Dex fighter can keep ahead is to take Improved Init as well. All that a melee fighter with a high Dex comes out ahead in is movement rate.
Personally, to increase the importance of Dex, I used the rules from UA for class and level based dodge bonuses to AC, and made it so armor gives you DR and does not make you harder to hit. Therefore, a lightly-armored, high Dex fighter has an absurd AC, but less ability to deal or take damage, while the heavy armor fighters can deal and take a lot of punishment, but face the attrition factor of never being able to entirely avoid hits. There's now a nice balance between Dex fighters and Str fighters, the only thing that seems to have broken in the process is Two-Weapon Fighting, which is feeling a bit underpowered now.
EDIT: My games have gotten a lot of mileage out of Shadow Blade and the Swashbuckler class (which allows you to add Int to damage) without breaking the game too hard. The major factor is that it's such an investment of feats and class levels that someone who is looking to totally maximize damage output is still going to be a Fighter or Barbarian with an absurd strength, and the best fighter in my home game is still the Plate-wearing Crusader (Paladin-like class from Tome of Battle) who dishes out and absorbs an insane amount of damage. What adding Dex or Int to damage really...
I know this isn't even the best option for a fighter, but a rogue will come way too close to the damage a fighter can deal 12th level rogue with this feat can quite easily gain +8 damage per attack with this one feat it makes weapon specialization look bad.
|
All that a melee fighter with a high Dex comes out ahead in is movement rate,higher skill checks, and higher rexlex saves.
Fixed that for you ;)
Bold emphasis mine.
Also with fighters armour training your example is flawed- the high dex fighter is also wearing full plate, and laughing at the 12 dex fighter who can't fully max out his AC while wearing it...
All that a melee fighter with a high Dex comes out ahead in is movement rate,higher skill checks, and higher rexlex saves.
Fixed that for you ;)
Bold emphasis mine.
Also with fighters armour training your example is flawed- the high dex fighter is also wearing full plate, and laughing at the 12 dex fighter who can't fully max out his AC while wearing it...
good points, so the mithral full plate will top out at +8 dex modifier for a very decent package.
There is a feat called piranha Attack that is power attack for light weapons, requires weapon finesse. So, you can kiss that 13 str pre-req goodbye, and hello to Str as a dump stat.
There was another thread on the subject of Weapon Finesse, and a feat that added Dexterity bonus to damage for finesse weapons (in addition to strength) was calculated to be not particularly more effective and in most cases slightly less effective than just grabbing the biggest weapon you could and hitting somebody with it.
The feat I used was this:
Improved Weapon Finesse
Your well-aimed blows inflict additional damage.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse and Combat Expertise.
Benefit: When attacking with a finesse weapon you add your dexterity modifier to your damage in addition to other effects and bonuses. This is precision damage, and will not affect creatures immune to critical hits or sneak attacks, and only applies to a single primary weapon (note that all a monk’s unarmed strikes count as their primary weapon). If you have a secondary weapon (from two weapon fighting or multiple natural attacks) you add only half your dexterity modifier to each of your attacks. Note that armour can restrict the maximum dexterity modifier you may apply.
With it, your fighter/duelist could just about keep up in damage with your greatsword fighter, but was always slightly behind.
|
|
All that a melee fighter with a high Dex comes out ahead in is movement rate,higher skill checks, and higher rexlex saves.
Fixed that for you ;)
Bold emphasis mine.
Also with fighters armour training your example is flawed- the high dex fighter is also wearing full plate, and laughing at the 12 dex fighter who can't fully max out his AC while wearing it...
I'll admit, my math is flawed when it comes to specifically the Fighter class in PFRPG, because they now rock in armor. I've even considered playing a finesse fighter who trades out high Str and damage potential for never being hit ever in Mithral Fullplate. Other classes wearing heavy armor are still in a little bit of trouble, as is a Fighter who delays the 7th level Armor Training by multiclassing.
Okay, you also got me on the high reflex saves, too, but I don't really consider the skill checks to be a balancing factor in combat, because with the exception of Acrobatics, most of the rest of them aren't coming up in a straight fight, which means that high Str vs. Dex does become a choice between rocking in combat or rocking out of combat.
I believe Fighters are still going to outpace Rogues in a fight no matter what, though, because they have more feats, better Base Attack, Weapon Training, Armor Training, more hit points, and can do their damage unconditionally - no flanking or winning Init needed, a Fighter just hits something and it dies...and all of that takes fewer feats than Weapon Finesse plus whatever feat or ability is needed to add Dex to damage...assuming, for example, Dervish Dance, which only requires Weapon Finesse and some skill points to work, still means a character who adds Dex to damage will always be 2 feats behind a character who just went ahead with Strength...they can just move straight on to Power Attacking and Weapon Focus. I cannot imagine a scenario where a Dex fighter, especially one limited to Finesse-able weapons, will be able to outpace the Half-Orc swinging the Greatsword/Greataxe/Falchion in raw damage output. To test this, I even ran a Dervish Dance Fighter adding Dex to Scimitar to-hit and damage through the "DPR olympics" elsewhere on these messageboards and could not meet or beat the damage output of a Two-Handed Weapon user...and that's *with* Weapon Training and Weapon Specialization and even a 13 Str to enable Power Attacking. I doubt a Rogue would come close, except when Sneak Attacking, which I personally consider to be too situational to be a reliable measure of damage, unless you start relying upon Improved Feint, and even then...no full attacks for you.
I won't say the game is totally unfair to Dex-based characters, but I do think that a two-feat tax to allow a character to use Dex as their primary to-hit and damage stat is probably close to fair.
Does Piranha attack allow you to ignore Str penalties to damage? If you still take Str penalty to damage, I highly doubt anybody is going to be allowing themselves to have a Str penalty.
|
|
All that a melee fighter with a high Dex comes out ahead in is movement rate,higher skill checks, and higher rexlex saves.
Fixed that for you ;)
Bold emphasis mine.
Also with fighters armour training your example is flawed- the high dex fighter is also wearing full plate, and laughing at the 12 dex fighter who can't fully max out his AC while wearing it...
I'll admit, my math is flawed when it comes to specifically the Fighter class in PFRPG, because they now rock in armor. I've even considered playing a finesse fighter who trades out high Str and damage potential for never being hit ever in Mithral Fullplate. Other classes wearing heavy armor are still in a little bit of trouble, as is a Fighter who delays the 7th level Armor Training by multiclassing.
Okay, you also got me on the high reflex saves, too, but I don't really consider the skill checks to be a balancing factor in combat, because with the exception of Acrobatics, most of the rest of them aren't coming up in a straight fight, which means that high Str vs. Dex does become a choice between rocking in combat or rocking out of combat.
I believe Fighters are still going to outpace Rogues in a fight no matter what, though, because they have more feats, better Base Attack, Weapon Training, Armor Training, more hit points, and can do their damage unconditionally - no flanking or winning Init needed, a Fighter just hits something and it dies...and all of that takes fewer feats than Weapon Finesse plus whatever feat or ability is needed to add Dex to damage...assuming, for example, Dervish Dance, which only requires Weapon Finesse and some skill points to work, still means a character who adds Dex to damage will always be 2 feats behind a character who just went ahead with Strength...they can just move straight on to Power Attacking and Weapon Focus.
I don't really understand your point- of course a fighter should out-fight a Rogue, its pretty much all he does...
And while we're on the topic, a high dex character shouldn't be keeping pace with a high strength character anyway- Strength is purely attack, damage and carrying capacity. Someone using dex for attack, damage, reflex saves, skills, better AC, better touch AC... Clearly if dexterity keeps pace with strength for the purposes of DPR no one would ever play a strength based character as the dexterity character gets so much more added in...
There was another thread on the subject of Weapon Finesse, and a feat that added Dexterity bonus to damage for finesse weapons (in addition to strength) was calculated to be not particularly more effective and in most cases slightly less effective than just grabbing the biggest weapon you could and hitting somebody with it.
The feat I used was this:
Improved Weapon Finesse
Your well-aimed blows inflict additional damage.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse and Combat Expertise.
Benefit: When attacking with a finesse weapon you add your dexterity modifier to your damage in addition to other effects and bonuses. This is precision damage, and will not affect creatures immune to critical hits or sneak attacks, and only applies to a single primary weapon (note that all a monk’s unarmed strikes count as their primary weapon). If you have a secondary weapon (from two weapon fighting or multiple natural attacks) you add only half your dexterity modifier to each of your attacks. Note that armour can restrict the maximum dexterity modifier you may apply.With it, your fighter/duelist could just about keep up in damage with your greatsword fighter, but was always slightly behind.
Ypu are missing the issue completely, ofcourse it won't add damage, but there is more to it than damage.
For example at level 20 you either have a strength 30 dex 18 con 17 fighter and a str 13 dex 28 con 24 fighter.
Strength has become a dump stat for the 2nd fighter and wears mithral breastplate comfortably using his full dex bonus.
two feats finesse and greater finesse end up giving it a big advantage over the strength fighter that those two feats can never remedy, strength skills are considered near useless.
+5 initiative, +5 reflex saves, +5 skill bonus (more if you take in the lighter armor), +3 AC, +80 hp, +4 fortitude saves.
I'll give you that the 1st fighter has two feats to spend and will likely outdamage the 2nd a bit, but the 2nd has to spread his resources over less stats and can gain a far better package
Okay, you also got me on the high reflex saves, too, but I don't really consider the skill checks to be a balancing factor in combat, because with the exception of Acrobatics, most of the rest of them aren't coming up in a straight fight, which means that high Str vs. Dex does become a choice between rocking in combat or rocking out of combat.
Why are you throwing out skills, again? Just the fact that a rogue gets more of these than a fighter demands a broader view of "balance" than this. Someone who focuses on Dex should be exploiting the advantages of her high Dex, not expecting it to do what strength does - isn't that WHY you pick Dex. over Str.? There are many ways to do this - from the game's earliest editions, DEX has always been a /GREAT/ stat - but if you want to pump your melee damage, it shouldn't be your go-to stat. Using your highest stat to do whatever you need done just seems a little too much like that OTHER game to me...
|
|
If adding Dex to damage were a feat or other finite resource, the advantage gained by consolidating your stat bonuses would be balanced out by the fact that a Dex fighter will always be 2 feats behind the strength-based one...one feat for Weapon Finesse, and one feat for add-Dex-to-damage. 2 feats is a lot, especially at low levels.
Two feats + a donkey to completely replace strength, with the exception of a few minor skills and CMB. Thats potent stuff, for a feat tax of 2 feats...
The feat I used was this:
Improved Weapon Finesse
Your well-aimed blows inflict additional damage.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse and Combat Expertise.
Benefit: When attacking with a finesse weapon you add your dexterity modifier to your damage in addition to other effects and bonuses. This is precision damage, and will not affect creatures immune to critical hits or sneak attacks, and only applies to a single primary weapon (note that all a monk’s unarmed strikes count as their primary weapon). If you have a secondary weapon (from two weapon fighting or multiple natural attacks) you add only half your dexterity modifier to each of your attacks. Note that armour can restrict the maximum dexterity modifier you may apply.With it, your fighter/duelist could just about keep up in damage with your greatsword fighter, but was always slightly behind.
Ypu are missing the issue completely, ofcourse it won't add damage, but there is more to it than damage.
For example at level 20 you either have a strength 30 dex 18 con 17 fighter and a str 13 dex 28 con 24 fighter.
Strength has become a dump stat for the 2nd fighter and wears mithral breastplate comfortably using his full dex bonus.
two feats finesse and greater finesse end up giving it a big advantage over the strength fighter that those two feats can never remedy, strength skills are considered near useless.
+5 initiative, +5 reflex saves, +5 skill bonus (more if you take in the lighter armor), +3 AC, +80 hp, +4 fortitude saves.
I'll give you that the 1st fighter has two feats to spend and will likely outdamage the 2nd a bit, but the 2nd has to spread his resources over...
I can see where you are coming from, but frankly it doesn't make as much difference as you think.
Lets look at your two examples:
strength 30 dex 18 con 17
If he is looking to dish damage he is either duel wielding or swinging a 2-handed weapon, so he is getting at least +15 from strength (TWF and Double Slice gives him +20), and +18 from Power Attack in either case, for a total of +33. He's also going to get +4 from weapon training and another +4 from Weapon Specialisation feats, for +41. Assume he has a greatsword (or TWF and a pair of shortswords), and his average damage before magic and other factors is 48 per or 53 in a pair of TWF attacks with Double Slice.
str 13 dex 28 con 24
This guy is getting +1 from strength and +9 from dex, with another +18 from Power Attack, for +28 total on a finesse weapon, and +8 from the other abilities as the first fighter, for +36. Most finesse weapons are one handed and around 1d6 damage, so he's topping out at 39.5 damage per hit. He's +1 to hit over the TWF fighter, but -1 to hit behind the two handed weapon fighter using the stats above.
Clearly, strength is NOT redundant, the effect of this feat is merely to make the dex-based fighter less useless. Strength always counts more because there are multipliers to it for using two-handed weapons or multiple weapons that you do not get with dexterity. Not only does the strength-based fighter still do more damage, he also has three more feats to play with. He could reduce his strength, increase his constitution and still have those feats to play with while doing as much damage.
Edit: reset calculations above as I got my Power Attack wrong initially.
As for AC, despite armour training the dex fighter is still going to restricted to lighter armour, so the AC difference between the two will probably not be remarkable. What does that leave? he may be better at a few saves, and he has better hit points. Overall, not an unbalanced trade-off. The dex fighter is now a viable alternative to the strength fighter, that's all.
the 2nd fighter could go for dex 30 and go for TWF just as easy and there is basically nothing that reduces the damage compared to the 30 str fighter in that case.
I am not sure wether the bonus counts for two-weapon fighting, I went with the 28 dex assuming this fighter would go for a very defensive board and weapon build without giving it much thought. I am not sure you do not get the bonus with the elevn curved blade either for example, but that would be an excellent 2-handed weapon otherwise.
Try to look at what you can make from the dex fighter's perspective rather than just making the strength fighter look better, I really do not see a reason to play a strength fighter anymore.
Ofcourse it brings the rogue that goes dex and finesse by default much closer to the strength fighter, while the fighter takes specialization and greater specialization, the rogue takes finesse (x2) and combat expertise, sure that is 3 feats but this one feat will easily do +8 or +10 damage.
It seems a bit much altogether, can't really say I care all that much.. if it comes I will try playing with it, a new balance isn't necesarily a bad balance and I like the flair of dex based characters better than brute strength anyway.
the 2nd fighter could go for dex 30 and go for TWF just as easy and there is basically nothing that reduces the damage compared to the 30 str fighter in that case.
I am not sure wether the bonus counts for two-weapon fighting, I went with the 28 dex assuming this fighter would go for a very defensive board and weapon build without giving it much thought. I am not sure you do not get the bonus with the elevn curved blade either for example, but that would be an excellent 2-handed weapon otherwise.
If you read the feat description, you will see that in the case of TWF the bonus is halved for each weapon, so in your example 30 dex instead of 30 strength takes you from +10 per hit with Double Slice to +5 per hit from Dex. The best way to gain from it is to take the strength-heavy build and then take the feats to increase damage from Dex as well ... although that only gives you a +2-3 bonus per hit, not a game-breaker.
I believe the elven curve-blade has been errata'd and no longer allows weapon finesse. Even if it did, the strength build would still be ahead, because you are adding 1-1/2 x strength bonus vs 1 x dex bonus (we crunched the numbers in the other thread).
Try to look at what you can make from the dex fighter's perspective rather than just making the strength fighter look better, I really do not see a reason to play a strength fighter anymore.
The dex fighter gets to be a more rounded build, but otherwise is less effective in the full offence than the strength fighter. You are doing less damage with less chance to hit, basically. You gain a bit on saves and the like, but I think the Strength build would probably concentrate more on strength and Con than on Strength, Dex and Con together.
Also, bear in mind that the Combat Expertise requirement means you have to burn creation points on Intelligence, so your stats for the dex fighter are actually optimistic. The strength fighter, though, can use Int as a dump-stat if he wants to.
Of course it brings the rogue that goes dex and finesse by default much closer to the strength fighter, while the fighter takes specialization and greater specialization, the rogue takes finesse (x2) and combat expertise, sure that is 3 feats but this one feat will easily do +8 or +10 damage.
The rogue is a non-issue, he's already doing most of his damage at level 20 from sneak attack anyway. Admittedly it would help him when he couldn't use sneak attack, but it's not a game breaker especially as he's got far less feats to burn than the fighter and is squishy as hell.
It seems a bit much altogether, can't really say I care all that much.. if it comes I will try playing with it, a new balance isn't necesarily a bad balance and I like the flair of dex based characters better than brute strength anyway.
I do to, but I don't think this destroys the strength-based fighter. Strength also has multiple uses, after all, and in combat you get more mileage out of strength with regards to pure damage. The big problem with the dex-based fighter is that if you don't go duelist or rogue, your damage sucked donkey-balls. (For the record, the fighter 10/duelist 10 was still behind the two-handed fighter - his damage was up, but his to-hit was significantly down).
The Dex to dmg argument often comes down to is it ADDED to Str, or REPLACING Str?
If it's added, it's a hugely powerful feat.
Remember that typically Str won't be put below 13, and Dex won't be put above 18. That's a 5 pt spread...the dmg difference at low levels is going to be basically equal if it's a sub effect. It gives the low Str fighter effectively +3 dmg...decent for a feat.
The problem comes with the unlimited SCALING of the feat. A typical fighter with 13 Dex can get +6 Booster and +5 Inherent to max out mithral full plate at +7 Dex...a 24. A Mithral Bp maxes out at +9 Dex, or a 28, for the same AC. However, the max Dex fighter isn't going to stop at a 28...he's going for the 30+ arena, and he'll wear lighter and lighter armor to get there, at the same time his Dex abilities keep scaling. It's entirely likely he's going to end up with a 32 to 34, for +12 (for ease)
That's the same dmg as the Str fighter (keep in mind the Dex fighter will return the favor for the str fighter, and get a +6 Str pumper and +5 inherent to str, setting him at a 24).
With a 32 Dex, he's at +4 Init over the Str Fighter.
Dmg is the same...but only if Str and Dex DO NOT STACK. IF they do...the Dex fighter is his Full Str BOnus ahead of the STr fighter! (for the cost of two feats, this is HUGE).
He's probably wearing light mithral armor so he can use his full +12 Dex bonus, and has a point or two of AC.
Their fort saves will be the same, but hte Dex fighter has a +5 better Reflex save...better then Lightning Reflexes.
With missile weapons, the Dex Fighter is considerably more dangerous.
With Dex based skills, the Dex fighter has a +4 advantage. The few Str basd skills, Str is at +4...so what?
The key thing to this is if it stacks or replaces. If it replaces, Dex is about par...the advantages of high Dex cost two feats, which are replaced by effectively gettign Impr Init and Lightning Reflexes.
If it stacks...the Dex fighter is ahead on all counts. A +7 effective bonus to dmg more then takes care of any lesser dmg from a finesse weapon, and is better then any feat out there.
=Aelryinth
stuff
All your response was taken from the homebrew dex feat, I didnt really use this feat for my viewpoint, but rather a fictional feat replacing damage from str mod for dex mod as is.
So using the same rules as a strength weapon as long as it is finesable, also I do see rogues doing alot of damage as a problem even if they are squishy as hell, being able to hit for huge damage and not being able to take it is never a good balance, better to just not allow for builds that could kill themselves twice over in a single round.
The Dex to dmg argument often comes down to is it ADDED to Str, or REPLACING Str?
If it's added, it's a hugely powerful feat.
{snipped}
I see your logic, but the numbers we crunched in the other thread said otherwise. We constructed a number of hypothetical characters using 25 point buy and wealth-by-level, and the addition of dex damage to strength damage for finesse weapons only did not break the the system, lead to over-powered characters or any such. It made dex-based, rather than strength based characters more effective, but the only character that came out ahead was the TWF build, and it wasn't significantly so.
Using Dex instead of Strength leads to silly, as you can treat strength as a dump-stat, and everyone plays halflings with rapiers and miniscule strengths.
All your response was taken from the homebrew dex feat, I didnt really use this feat for my viewpoint, but rather a fictional feat replacing damage from str mod for dex mod as is.stuff
Not a lot of point discussing it, then. If I'm using one feat and you are using another, the comparisons are not relevant.
So using the same rules as a strength weapon as long as it is finesable, also I do see rogues doing alot of damage as a problem even if they are squishy as hell, being able to hit for huge damage and not being able to take it is never a good balance, better to just not allow for builds that could kill themselves twice over in a single round.
Rogues can do that already, with +10d6 sneak attack damage in the hands of a TWF rogue flanking. An extra few points here or there will make no appreciable difference.
As I pointed out above, replacing strength with dex for damage is not a good idea. Paradoxically, it's actually worse than adding them together.
Well, the fun thing about adding Dex to dmg is that it encourages a Str fighter to take the feat, too...it's the only level-scaling dmg feat in the game! It thus also skews the whole paradigm towards Dex-based and finesse fighting, if Dex to dmg is ONLY allowed with finessable weapons! (or you could go with Monte Cook's Exotic weapons that are always finessable...)
Stat buffs tend to work out with:
+16 to Primary Stat (+5 Levels, +6 Booster, +5 Inherent)
+11 to Secondary Stat(+6 booster, +5 Inherent)
+6 Tertiary stat.
+4 (all other stats)
All scores increase to +11 in Epic, when it becomes cheap to get the inherent bonuses. It should be a house rule that you just give everyone +5 Inherent to all ability scores as the 'gift' for reaching level 21.
For a Str Fighter, these scores are Str, Dex, Con, else. Dex is primary over con so PF Fighters can max out Dex to AC w Armor. In 3.5, Con is Secondary for hit points.
For a Dex Fighter, these scores are Dex, Str, Con, else, with potential for Dex, Int, Str, Con if they are going for a triple stack. If Str doesn't stack, Con or Int move up to Secondary, Str falls to Tertiary or Else. After all, if you don't want to use Power Attack and are wearing light armor, you only need a str of 10.
Armor also works out better for the Dex fighter at most levels. Keep in mind he's going to be gettin to 24 Dex likely by level 10 (with a +4 booster), so he'll easily maxing out his Dex to AC mod long before the Str fighter, and likely won't ever get past breastplate for that reason.
==========
The primary arguments against this are actually thematically valid...a big strong hefty brute wielding a greatsword should do a lot more dmg then some nimble bastard wielding a dagger. Weapon finesse is not and was not ever intended to allow dex-based fighters to surpass or even equal Str fighters...it was created to allow Rogues an excellent chance to hit their enemies. The TH bonus provided by weapon finesse can easily net +7 to hit by level 20 over a Rogue's Str score. There's no single feat in the game which can duplicate that effect. It's what the feat was designed to do, and people should really be content with that.
===Aelryinth
Well, the fun thing about adding Dex to dmg is that it encourages a Str fighter to take the feat, too...it's the only level-scaling dmg feat in the game! It thus also skews the whole paradigm towards Dex-based and finesse fighting, if Dex to dmg is ONLY allowed with finessable weapons! (or you could go with Monte Cook's Exotic weapons that are always finessable...)
Stat buffs tend to work out with:
+16 to Primary Stat (+5 Levels, +6 Booster, +5 Inherent)
+11 to Secondary Stat(+6 booster, +5 Inherent)
+6 Tertiary stat.
+4 (all other stats)All scores increase to +11 in Epic, when it becomes cheap to get the inherent bonuses. It should be a house rule that you just give everyone +5 Inherent and +6 Enhancement to all ability scores as the 'gift' for reaching level 21. +11 to all stats should really convey the meanign of an Epic character.
For a Str Fighter, these scores are Str, Dex, Con, else. Dex is primary over con so PF Fighters can max out Dex to AC w Armor. In 3.5, Con is Secondary for hit points.
For a Dex Fighter, these scores are Dex, Str, Con, else, with potential for Dex, Int, Str, Con if they are going for a triple stack. If Str doesn't stack, Con or Int move up to Secondary, Str falls to Tertiary or Else. After all, if you don't want to use Power Attack and are wearing light armor, you only need a str of 10.Armor also works out better for the Dex fighter at most levels. Keep in mind he's going to be gettin to 24 Dex likely by level 10 (with a +4 booster), so he'll easily maxing out his Dex to AC mod long before the Str fighter, and likely won't ever get past breastplate for that reason.
==========
The primary arguments against this are actually thematically valid...a big strong hefty brute wielding a greatsword should do a lot more dmg then some nimble bastard wielding a dagger. Weapon finesse is not and was not ever intended to allow dex-based fighters to surpass or even equal Str fighters...it was created to allow Rogues an excellent chance to hit their enemies. The TH bonus provided by weapon finesse can easily net +7 to hit by level 20 over a Rogue's Str...
Well, the fun thing about adding Dex to dmg is that it encourages a Str fighter to take the feat, too...it's the only level-scaling dmg feat in the game! It thus also skews the whole paradigm towards Dex-based and finesse fighting, if Dex to dmg is ONLY allowed with finessable weapons! (or you could go with Monte Cook's Exotic weapons that are always finessable...)
Nope.
Oh, certainly, it's a feat that scales in game, but if we go with "replaces strength," then guess what scales with the game? The pre-existing mechanics.
So certainly the strength fighter could take the feat because hey, now if he builds up his dex, it scales to his damage! Or he could not take the feat, because strength already scales.
The fact is, right now, strength rogues are better damaging then dex rogues. Weapon finesse does not do the job, not fully.
Thematics is a bad argument. Zorro wasn't a greatsword welding brute, but he sure did defeat a lot of them.
dexterity replacing strength to damage does not make strength a total dump stat. you still need a 13 str for power attack. and that does not save you any points whatsoever. strength still determines carrying capacity and a few ESSENTIAL skills, climb and swim actually DO matter. you would be a fool not to invest in these 2 skills. so even if dexterity replaced strength, it will still have at least some importance. if you dumped strength below 10, then you would have a hard time wearing armor. everything has weight, armor, weapons, ammunition, gold, potions, scrolls, and every other piece of gear has weight. so the 5 Strength halfling with a rapier isn't really that viable.
dexterity replacing strength to damage does not make strength a total dump stat. you still need a 13 str for power attack. and that does not save you any points whatsoever. strength still determines carrying capacity and the essential climb skill. in most campaigns, expect your fair share of climb checks.
near useless anyway, climb, swim aren't the most popular skills and maybe happens rarely.. and then there is a good chance you either can deal with it another way or pass your check with str 13 still. The dex warrior will end up with lighter armor so that makes up for something, armor checks, weight and possibly arcane spellfailure.
str 13 will not be dumped completely but it does allow to focus on dex and con mixed in with a bit of int.
A strength fighter will have need to up str, dex, con and a bit of int, using a bit more resources, overall it seems dexterity will be a superior build, though there will be archetypes in the APG shifting the balance between strength and dexterity choices yet again. the dexterity fighter doesn't really bother me, the barbarian can already cover the brute strength, specifically other classes that have even more use from dex will get a more significant boost. monks and rogues will get a notable boost, possibly rangers as well.
|
I used to play "Star Wars Saga" and in that system there was a talent in one of the PrC talent trees that allowed a character to add their dex bonus to damage rolls instead of strength. I was wondering if there is a PF feat or class ability that does the same thing.
As someone else mentioned and spoke true on, if you use a scimitar the answer is yes.
The Dervish Dance feat lets you use a scimitar in one hand (and nothing in the other hand) and gain dex to damage instead of strength. I see this as the MOST viable method to allow dex to damage without it imploding and if there is a feat coming out in the APG for this, I see it resembling this feat. As it stands a duelist is a better duelist if he uses a scimitar over every other weapon (which I think is kind of silly).
Oh and in case you're curious, the same feat also allows the scimitar to be treated as a finessable weapon (which I kind of think it should have been to beging with).
I used to play "Star Wars Saga" and in that system there was a talent in one of the PrC talent trees that allowed a character to add their dex bonus to damage rolls instead of strength. I was wondering if there is a PF feat or class ability that does the same thing.As someone else mentioned and spoke true on, if you use a scimitar the answer is yes.
The Dervish Dance feat lets you use a scimitar in one hand (and nothing in the other hand) and gain dex to damage instead of strength. I see this as the MOST viable method to allow dex to damage without it imploding and if there is a feat coming out in the APG for this, I see it resembling this feat. As it stands a duelist is a better duelist if he uses a scimitar over every other weapon (which I think is kind of silly).
Oh and in case you're curious, the same feat also allows the scimitar to be treated as a finessable weapon (which I kind of think it should have been to beging with).
I think you might be right, as I recall there is a one-hand fighter archetype which could use such a feat.
Well, the fun thing about adding Dex to dmg is that it encourages a Str fighter to take the feat, too...it's the only level-scaling dmg feat in the game! It thus also skews the whole paradigm towards Dex-based and finesse fighting, if Dex to dmg is ONLY allowed with finessable weapons! (or you could go with Monte Cook's Exotic weapons that are always finessable...)
Level scaling damage, you mean like with Power Attack?
I don't think it skews the the paradigm at all - finesse weapons do less damage than two-handed strength weapons to begin with.
Two-handed brute-force weapons: Gain +50% from Strength and Power attack. Do more damage initially.
One-handed finesse weapons: Do less damage initially (about half as much) and get only the basic from power attack and strength.
Stat buffs tend to work out with:
+16 to Primary Stat (+5 Levels, +6 Booster, +5 Inherent)
+11 to Secondary Stat(+6 booster, +5 Inherent)
+6 Tertiary stat.
+4 (all other stats)
I take it this is at level 20? I don't follow your logic here, can you give me an example of actual stats? Further, if these are what Remco's stats above were based on, then we've already demonstrated that the strength fighter gets out ahead in damage by a fair hike.
Armor also works out better for the Dex fighter at most levels. Keep in mind he's going to be gettin to 24 Dex likely by level 10 (with a +4 booster), so he'll easily maxing out his Dex to AC mod long before the Str fighter, and likely won't ever get past breastplate for that reason.
Well he's also doing less damage in combat, so getting better AC is a balancing factor, not a broken one.
The primary arguments against this are actually thematically valid...a big strong hefty brute wielding a greatsword should do a lot more dmg then some nimble bastard wielding a dagger.
Because we all know that splitting somebody down the middle is far more deadly than stabbing them through the heart! Well, actually, it's not. Hitting somebody with a two-handed sword is an easier way to do lethal damage, but if a combatant knows what he is doing the dagger is as deadly. In D&D this is represented by feats.
Sorry, but IRL it's true: It's not the size of your weapon that counts, it's how you use it.
Weapon finesse is not and was not ever intended to allow dex-based fighters to surpass or even equal Str fighters...it was created to allow Rogues an excellent chance to hit their enemies.
Have you a source for that? because I always considered it as a way to make the less-strong combatants of all classes more effective.
Is is funny, but I got a rather different impression from that other thread. As things stand, over half of the core base classes work at least as well with high Dex as with high Str. Sometimes a high Dex build can even beat a high Str build head to head (Monk/Druid comes to mind). Stuff like AC and Reflex saves matter a lot, so making Dex based characters equal or superior to Str based characters in damage output is a big deal.
Still, if this many people want something I suppose Paizo will eventually have to supply it in some form or another. The Dex scimitar feat seems very well balanced as such feats go. Limiting the scope is a great idea for preventing unexpected consequences. A feat which allows you to add Dex to damage while using a scimitar doesn't affect Monks, for instance. If the APG feat/ability is limited to just certain archetypes that would offer a similar control and probably some built in checks and balances.
Keeping the bonus damage on a single attack would prevent people from multiplying it in unexpected ways. A finesse eidolon with a super high AC and a bunch of Dex to damage attacks might be "broken", for instance, whereas one with the bonus damage on just one attack probably wouldn't be. Adding the damage to a single weapon also seems more on theme with a feat meant to help simulate cinematic fencing ala Zorro (which is what I think people are saying they want)
Zorro wasn't a greatsword welding brute, but he sure did defeat a lot of them.
Did Zorro really fight a lot of dudes with greatswords? Either way, while some people want to have fun playing Zorro others want to have fun playing Conan. If Zorro is better at Reflex saves and probably AC then Conan needs to be better at something (other than flexing) if those people are going to have fun in the same games. It sounds like right now the Zorro players are feeling outclassed. I'd rather not see the situation reversed so that the Conan players feel like they are being relegated to treasure carriers.
Hopefully the APG has something to enhance swashbuckler archetype characters rather than something which just makes Dex an uberstat (more than it already is). I guess whatever is in the APG has already gone to the printer though, so arguments here are really kind of pointless until the book is out.
The Dex to dmg argument often comes down to is it ADDED to Str, or REPLACING Str?
If it's added, it's a hugely powerful feat.
I agree.
As I pointed out above, replacing strength with dex for damage is not a good idea. Paradoxically, it's actually worse than adding them together.
Also a good point. I think a better solution is to make strength a prerequisite for the DEX=Damage feat. This keeps strength from being a dump stat, but does not increase the damage. Additionally if I were making the feat I would give it a requirement of BAB +6 which is another incentive to have SOME strength, so the first 6+ levels don't suck.
I hope there is some feat along these lines in the APG, because I think it makes the dex fighter a more viable/competitive build. Thanks to everyone who pointed out related feats from 3.5 and else where.
Paizo recently published a nice feat for dex fighters to increase their damage output. It's part of the new companion covering the jungle area. It mimics Power Attack, but requires no strength and provides no two-handed wielding bonus damage.
Paizo recently published a nice feat for dex fighters to increase their damage output. It's part of the new companion covering the jungle area. It mimics Power Attack, but requires no strength and provides no two-handed wielding bonus damage.
Hmmm ... now this just sounds interesting. Do you have the source it's from?
PA ... but dex-based. Weird. I mean, what are you doing? giving up dex for damage? Just gaining a flat +2/full 4 points of dex damage?
Anyway ('sup Dabbler?) here's a quick linky-link to the long-arse thread where we beat this all out before for convenience.
I'm backing Dabbler on this as, ultimately, he's taking the end-result of all the investigations. I *think* the twf-guy had *maybe* like 2 points more in damage total from this path? Pretty bad, IMO, given that it was like 3-4 feats deep to get this "huge advantage" in the first place.
On the front of not replacing the str-goons out there as "damage is king" types, for MY games, I'm adding feats with both str minimums and bab minimums that will increase the 2-handed bonus damage they get (ie: they'll *always* remain kings of damage). Basically, it's like the "overhand chop" stuff, but instead of working on just one hit, it works for all your hits period (nonsense for just 1 strike for a feat - rubbish!). I scaled it up with 2 boosts: 1.5xstr ==> 2xstr ==> 2.5xstr.
So at the high end there, if you're running w/the #'s of +12 as a modifier, then the secondary guy w/his +6 modifier, in best case scenario the dex-monkey fighter will have a +18. The "str is king" 2-handed build, on the other hand, will have a +30 to his damage from strength.
{*sigh* yes it makes them more powerful - and that's the point. I want them to be *THE* best at damage dealing. They won't get the crazy bonuses until SO much later in the game anyway, though, it doesn't really matter - IMO. Keeping them in the "high damage dealing" position is key to me for their trade off. Sword and Board = AC and 2-wpn kings *cheese to the extreme* and dex-guys are getting their dex-damage boost, so the 2-handers need something to emphasize their weight class, IMO).
Why not a feat with limitations mentioned above (finessable weapon and so on) that adds dex to damage, not only limited to precision damage but only on sneak attacks? (or rather, on sneak attack opportunities)
It's powerful, but for a fighter it still requires a bit of tactics to use.
You know, I can't see a serious problem with this. Most people seem to be looking at fairly high level examples, and a +5-10 damage bonus is hardly breaking at higher levels of play (15-20 When things have 250-500 hp). Even at lower levels you're not seeing that much of a spike... 5th level fighter 22 str +1 greatsword 2d6+18-ish w/Power attack and specialization, with a higher to-hit bonus... Figure an average of 25(ish) vs. Scimitar, only weapon this currently works with 1d6 + 6 (dex) + 3d6 (SA) + 4 (Power attack, but you're not likely to hit much)for an average of 24(ish). Looks pretty in line for a melee character of that level, and without sneak attack you're only looking at 14(ish) damage a hit from Sneaky McRogueface.
I'm not even reading this again, but just for the sake of argument for those who say a finesse weapon guy must take power attack and thus need Str 13, there is this:
Piranha Strike
Source Sargava: The Lost Colony 24
You make a combination of quick strikes, sacrificing accuracy for multiple, minor wounds that prove exceptionally deadly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
So, yeah, strength becomes a dump stat.
I'm not even reading this again, but just for the sake of argument for those who say a finesse weapon guy must take power attack and thus need Str 13, there is this:
Piranha Strike ...
So, yeah, strength becomes a dump stat.
Well ... for those that intend to use str as a dump stat, I direct you to the 2nd to last page of the OLD thread where I clearly articulate all of the problems of using str as a dump-stat via encumbrance. (pg 13 - bottom)
Yes, it's that "nagging little" equipment tracking thing, but you know what? Makes perfect sense to track and peck on the moron front-liner that *thinks* it's a great idea to dump str.
More over, the biggest nay-saying point seems to be "adding str and dex = the brokens!!!" That little feat above lets you get the PA effect with no 2-handed boons, and lesser effect in general. So, if str is a "dump" stat, then str+dex = better idea. Now, you "dump" to str of 7, and pick up a big, whopping -2 dmg. It's added into the dex bonus (let's go 18 for a +4 ok?) of +4 you net a +2 ... because he/she/it decided to "dump" str.
Combining them is minimal in net gain over the long haul unless you're really dedicated, IMO. Even so - there's better feats out there.
Power Attack also is a "no feat" cost feat. Ie: you just need the bab and the str to pick it up.
Piranha Junk up there - you need wpn finesse. So ... yeah. -1 Feat cost to qualify. Granted, it's one the light fighter is likely to want anyway, but now we're talking 2 feats spent *just* to get a PA-like effect going where evey other class type can go for just a flat 1 feat cost. Of course, that's not even taking into account the additional feat req's to get the improved finesse thing going (2-3 more), so ... with the investment of 4-5 feats I'd damn well expect to see something showing some results for the investment.
IMO, that's a step towards "balanced" near as I can tell.
Thanks Speaker!
I don't like 'dump stats' myself, and Piranha Strikes is not a particularly good feat - if you have the strength for Power Attack, take it because it is the better feat even with finesse weapons.
Piranha strike is fine, it is power attack for those melee guys and girls that dont have str 13, power attack is a must have feat and piranha strike could save you 3 point in point buy for str 10 if you limit yourself to light weapons.
We will just have to wait for the APG to see what they did for dex fighters to discuss it further, too much speculation as it is now.
dexterity replacing strength to damage does not make strength a total dump stat. you still need a 13 str for power attack. and that does not save you any points whatsoever. strength still determines carrying capacity and the essential climb skill. in most campaigns, expect your fair share of climb checks.near useless anyway, climb, swim aren't the most popular skills and maybe happens rarely.. and then there is a good chance you either can deal with it another way or pass your check with str 13 still. The dex warrior will end up with lighter armor so that makes up for something, armor checks, weight and possibly arcane spellfailure.
str 13 will not be dumped completely but it does allow to focus on dex and con mixed in with a bit of int.
A strength fighter will have need to up str, dex, con and a bit of int, using a bit more resources, overall it seems dexterity will be a superior build, though there will be archetypes in the APG shifting the balance between strength and dexterity choices yet again. the dexterity fighter doesn't really bother me, the barbarian can already cover the brute strength, specifically other classes that have even more use from dex will get a more significant boost. monks and rogues will get a notable boost, possibly rangers as well.
dexterity replacing strength is the best route. strength already has huge penalties or being dumped. carrying capacity is ESSENTIAL if you want to wear any armor at all. adventuring gear is heavy, an extradimensional bag is not a good argument to counter this, as those weigh quite a bit more than a backpack and don't account for weapons, worn armor, worn clothing, any slotted magic items and anything left upon your person for easy access. everything has weight, and its easy to end up with a medium load. a pack animal is never willing to enter the dungeon with you. so you have to go back outside, just to get your stuff and it could take a potentially long time.
Dex replacing strength leads to six inch tall creatures with a strength of 1 and a dex of 25 to inflict massive damage instead of merely noticeable damage.
Dex replacing strength leads to six inch tall creatures with a strength of 1 and a dex of 25 to inflict massive damage instead of merely noticeable damage.
sorry, but to be fine size requires you to be something akin either an ant, cockroach, or similar creature, all of which have merely a fraction of a single hit dice, and the vermin type. the fractional hit dice would normally allot them a single feat (weapon finesse), but the vermin type removes that right, as vermin never have intellegence scores and thus cannot take feats, earn skill points, or even advance in power in any way. because they have no intellegence score of thier own.
|
|
o-O
Medium
Small
Tiny
Diminutive
Fine
So, starting with a small character * lets go halfling*, reduce person can drop you down one size category to tiny.
Polymorph any object, however, can change the base form permanently without a size restriction, and opens up a big size range.
You wouldn't have a level 1 character that was permanently changed. However, the cost of getting the 8th lvl spell cast on you is caster levelxspell levelx10gp. so 8x17x10 = 1360g
That's third level range :p
Note that it goes both ways. You can go up just as easily as going down.
o-O
Medium
Small
Tiny
Diminutive
FineSo, starting with a small character * lets go halfling*, reduce person can drop you down one size category to tiny.
Polymorph any object, however, can change the base form permanently without a size restriction, and opens up a big size range.
You wouldn't have a level 1 character that was permanently changed. However, the cost of getting the 8th lvl spell cast on you is caster levelxspell levelx10gp. so 8x17x10 = 1360g
That's third level range :p
Note that it goes both ways. You can go up just as easily as going down.
but that is nowhere near as bad as doing the reverse and making your strength fighter colossal.
dexterity replacing strength is the best route. strength already has huge penalties or being dumped. carrying capacity is ESSENTIAL if you want to wear any armor at all. adventuring gear is heavy, an extradimensional bag is not a good argument to counter this, as those weigh quite a bit more than a backpack and don't account for weapons, worn armor, worn clothing, any slotted magic items and anything left upon your person for easy access. everything has weight, and its easy to end up with a medium load. a pack animal is never willing to enter the dungeon with you. so you have to go back outside, just to get your stuff and it could take a potentially long time.dexterity replacing strength to damage does not make strength a total dump stat. you still need a 13 str for power attack. and that does not save you any points whatsoever. strength still determines carrying capacity and the essential climb skill. in most campaigns, expect your fair share of climb checks.near useless anyway, climb, swim aren't the most popular skills and maybe happens rarely.. and then there is a good chance you either can deal with it another way or pass your check with str 13 still. The dex warrior will end up with lighter armor so that makes up for something, armor checks, weight and possibly arcane spellfailure.
str 13 will not be dumped completely but it does allow to focus on dex and con mixed in with a bit of int.
A strength fighter will have need to up str, dex, con and a bit of int, using a bit more resources, overall it seems dexterity will be a superior build, though there will be archetypes in the APG shifting the balance between strength and dexterity choices yet again. the dexterity fighter doesn't really bother me, the barbarian can already cover the brute strength, specifically other classes that have even more use from dex will get a more significant boost. monks and rogues will get a notable boost, possibly rangers as well.
carrying capacity.. ? really, it is really never an issue in a game where you can get some handy haversack for 2,000 gold and a mithral breast plate will go fine with that, you do not need a pack animal you have your barbarian companion anyway. I am still assuming a str of 10 at least by the way, I do not think penalties for low strength should be negated. I am not saying it couldn't be an issue, but not something that has to be taken on the same level of consideration as more active game mechanics.