APG sorcerer class option too much?

[Remco Sommeling]

In addition to a host of racial traits, each race also receives a number of favored class options. These options are tied to a race's theme in most cases, meaning that races only receive options for classes that are racially common. Possessing one of these options just gives your character an additional choice whenever he gains a level in his favored class (instead of a skill point or a hit point). For example, take a look at this elven wizard favored class option.

Wizard: Select one arcane school power at 1st level that is normally usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the wizard's Intelligence modifier. The wizard adds +1/2 to the number of uses per day of that arcane school power.

Once an elven wizard takes this power twice, he gains an additional use of that ability. Want more, take a look at this gnome bard favored class option.

Bard: Add 1 to the gnome's total number of bardic performance rounds per day.

Of all the races, only humans have an option for all 17 classes. Here is the human sorcerer favored class option.

Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast.

> it seems about the power of a feat maybe, in 3.5 it actually was a feat now you get extra spells for just 1 hp/sp, take the toughness feat and around at lvl 12 you will have :

2 extra 1st level spells
2 extra 2nd level spells
2 extra 3rd level spells
2 extra 4th level spells
1 extra 5th level spell

at the cost of 9 hitpoints, or rather one feat (toughness) with 3 extra hp added.

[Lord Fyre]

How do you have this informaiton?

Most of us will not get this until two weeks from now.

[Remco Sommeling]

Lord Fyre wrote:

How do you have this informaiton?

Most of us will not get this until two weeks from now.

it is in the paizo blog, there are a total of 4 previews

[Mr. Swagger]

Remco Sommeling wrote:

In addition to a host of racial traits, each race also receives a number of favored class options. These options are tied to a race's theme in most cases, meaning that races only receive options for classes that are racially common. Possessing one of these options just gives your character an additional choice whenever he gains a level in his favored class (instead of a skill point or a hit point). For example, take a look at this elven wizard favored class option.

Wizard: Select one arcane school power at 1st level that is normally usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the wizard's Intelligence modifier. The wizard adds +1/2 to the number of uses per day of that arcane school power.

Once an elven wizard takes this power twice, he gains an additional use of that ability. Want more, take a look at this gnome bard favored class option.

Bard: Add 1 to the gnome's total number of bardic performance rounds per day.

Of all the races, only humans have an option for all 17 classes. Here is the human sorcerer favored class option.

Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast.

Why did you make two threads on the same topic within 2 minutes of each other, and there was already a thread on this so why not continue it there.

First I am going to delete this thread and then I am going to send you to bed without supper for wasting storage space. Let this be an example to the rest of you.

edit: Since you deleted your post from the other thread you are forgiven. Will someone go get Gorbacz so he is not alone over there.

[Swivl]

I think it would be difficult to quantify what bonuses equal each other for different classes, considering they all operate in their own way. Once we get characters made, and we see their options in play, it might be easier to tell. Frankly, since it must be a lower-level spell, I think it will work just fine (though I could be wrong).

[Remco Sommeling]

sorry, board was doing funny stuff, it seemed like it ate my first post, but it apeared a bit later anyway.

[Lord Fyre]

Remco Sommeling wrote:

Lord Fyre wrote:

How do you have this informaiton?

Most of us will not get this until two weeks from now.

it is in the paizo blog, there are a total of 4 previews

Ah!

In reference to your original question, I will wait until I can see the whole thing in context.

You may be right. When a bunch of new options are added, sometimes an unbalanced one can slip through.

[Stéphane Le Roux]

Remco Sommeling wrote:

it seems about the power of a feat maybe, in 3.5 it actually was a feat now you get extra spells for just 1 hp/sp, take the toughness feat and around at lvl 12 you will have :

2 extra 1st level spells
2 extra 2nd level spells
2 extra 3rd level spells
2 extra 4th level spells
1 extra 5th level spell

at the cost of 9 hitpoints, or rather one feat (toughness) with 3 extra hp added.

Well, level 12 is quite a good level to see the balance issue.

You have 2 more level 1 spells, on top of the 6 you already know. Great. Err... Not so great. A wand cost 750 gp; those two spells are useful only if it's spells that you must cast for yourself (because of DC, SR, or any effect dependent on CL): having identify or disguise is completely useless, you're basically trading 1 hp for a few gp. How many level 1 spells are there that you must know by yourself? Isn't 5 spells known+1 bonus spell known+wands+scrolls+other sufficient?

It's the same for level 2 spells (again, you know 5+1 of them, and can afford some wand and scrolls). It's almost the same for 3-rd level spells: there are many more very useful 3-rd level spells, but again, that's trading 2 hp for 2 spells on top of 4+1+scrolls, and maybe one wand (wand are expensive, but there's a good chance that you found at least one 3-rd level wand at level 12).

And, last but not least, you have two bonus spells of level 4 (on top of 3+1+scrolls and maybe one wand) and one bonus spell of level 5 (on top of 2+1 and maybe some scrolls). And still only 1 6-th level spell known.

I'd rather have something like 6 hp and three high-level bonus spells known; 6 hp is probably about 10% of my total hp. 10% of my total hp isn't great, but it's still better than "no bonus at all" (what is essentially a 1-st level bonus spell).

And the whole balance of the option is here. The bonus spell known is a bonus which becomes less and less useful as you level up. The HP or the skill ? Not so much, since you have d6 hp and 2 skill points. Bonus spells known become less and less useful as those spells become less and less potent, and your options to cast them without actually knowing them are more and more available. If you create a character from level 12, you shouldn't consider the option of having more spells known of level 0, 1 and 2, and take hp or skills instead. But if the character is created from level 1, and level up, the question at each level is "do I take a bonus that will be useful until level 20, or a bonus that is very useful here and now, but will eventually becomes useless ?"; personally, my response would probably be: "at odd level I take the spell, at even level I take something else"; and the sorcerer who take only spells won't be more powerful, because he will have more useless spells (and I can cast those spells without knowing them anyway) and maybe one more useful spell, and I will have more hp or skills. Since taking only the spells don't seems to be more powerful, the option is probably balanced. Maybe a little bit better than the normal option, because "taking the spell sometimes" is probably a little bit more powerful than "never taking the spell"; but far from "completely unbalanced".

And you already did that reasoning for 0-th level spells. At level 1, a 0-th bonus spell is great: daze is a very good spell at 1-st level, as are read magic, detect magic, light, dancing light, message, mending, mage hand, ghost sound, and one attack spell (acid splash or ray of frost); and you know only 4 of them: 1 bonus spell is great. But at level 12, it's so useless to add 3 spells of level 0 on top of 9 that you didn't even suggest to take the bonus spell.

[Gorbacz]

Guys, didn't we have a mamooth thread on this a few weeks back ? Full of romance and drama ?

[Yasha]

Thanks Gorbacz, I was just going to mention the same thing. The truth of the matter is this: we have no idea what the other favored class bonuses (aside from those mentioned on the Blog) are yet.

The Bulmahn has also expressed his support for this particular Sorcerer 'feature' as well and he does not think its overpowered. I know that some folks will disagree, thats fine. However, arguing about it before the book comes out so we can all take a look at the various options is kinda like beating a dead horse....in the third thread of this nature.

[Ravingdork]

Gorbacz wrote:

Guys, didn't we have a mamooth thread on this a few weeks back ? Full of romance and drama ?

Link or it didn't happen.

[Volaran]

Ravingdork wrote:

Link or it didn't happen.

APG Preview #1 Thread

And the OP for this thread is already posting in the preview thread (and is the most recent poster there at the time I typed this). As James Jacobs and Jason Bulmahn have already responded it that thread, it is probably best to continue any discussion there. That said, I think the topic has already been thoroughly covered there.

[Themetricsystem]

Volaran wrote:

APG Preview #1 Thread

And the OP for this thread is already posting in the preview thread (and is the most recent poster there at the time I typed this). As James Jacobs and Jason Bulmahn have already responded it that thread, it is probably best to continue any discussion there. That said, I think the topic has already been thoroughly covered there.

Very much so.