Have just been thinking about the ole metamagic rods and just how much they are really worth vs how much they cost.
Now while they're not cheap they can be quite powerful magic items in the hands of casters.
considering all metamagic feats make you pay with higher level slots (often better spent on higher level spells) does make you wonder how good a deal your really getting.
If you really break it down your basically paying to upgrade spells saving yourself a feat and the higher level spell slot. Or in another way your paying for a larger number of your higher level slots
From a metagaming view point a 5th level mage would have enough gold to buy a metamagic rod of empower and all his evoker blasties would be doing 50% more damage
now of course this is tempered by the GM since he'd have to be near insane to give such an item to a 5th level mage or plan on throwing high CR mobs at him.
The quintessential rod is of course the quicken rod. Which effectively doubles your actions in a round by letting you fire off 2 spells instead of 1. most often used as 1 offensive main spell and a quickened buff spell.
I guess what I'm really asking is do they cost enough ? should they be more expensive for what they are offering which is quite a lot when you think about it, (saves you a feat and a higher level spell slot)
considering the progressive increase in number of available spells at higher levels would there be cause for meta magic feats to use slots of the same or lower level to improve them ? or for meta magic rods to allow the use of multiple same level slots for higher level effects?
e.g. if quicken cost 4 spell slots of the same level to cast instead of 1 slot 4 level higher ?
out of curiosity are there any casters out there who wouldn't jump all over a lesser quicken rod the first chance they got over something else of similar value ?
Really, it depends on what sort of spellcaster you are, and what sort of campaign your DM is running.
Now, I grant you that most casters would jump on -any- sort of metamagic rod, regardless of having the feat or not. This is especially true for quicken rods. But, it should be stated that DC casters will arguably get more use from items that raise their spellcasting stat, blasters will benefit more from boosts to caster level, and battle casters would do well with items that keep them alive while in the fray.
Also, while it could be argued either way, pearls of power would be more beneficial for casters in games that don't subscribe to the 15-minute adventuring day.
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I have to admit, using Metamagic wands with either Quicken or Empower really can create havoc for our opposition.... and gives a headache for our DM.
We have two casters in our party.. and with our teamwork can virtually destroy a difficult CR.
Our Party:
x2 Wizards/Vampires 7th level
x1 Cleric 6th level
x1 Fighter 6th level
x1 Ranger 6th level
x1 Rogue 6th level
I know this makes for somewhat high-level play and using Metamagic wands creates a balancing act for the DM.
Does the DM use stronger CR's... staying with the campaign.. change up some of the NPC's with stronger magic? But if our party kills the enemy CR characters and we get their goods it just makes us stronger.
Its a fine line as you your CL gets higher. Should the DM all of a sudden ban Metamagic wands?
I have to admit, using Metamagic wands with either Quicken or Empower really can create havoc for our opposition.... and gives a headache for our DM.
We have two casters in our party.. and with our teamwork can virtually destroy a difficult CR.
Our Party:
x2 Wizards/Vampires 7th level
x1 Cleric 6th level
x1 Fighter 6th level
x1 Ranger 6th level
x1 Rogue 6th levelI know this makes for somewhat high-level play and using Metamagic wands creates a balancing act for the DM.
Does the DM use stronger CR's... staying with the campaign.. change up some of the NPC's with stronger magic? But if our party kills the enemy CR characters and we get their goods it just makes us stronger.
Its a fine line as you your CL gets higher. Should the DM all of a sudden ban Metamagic wands?
The DM is the facillitator of the game. If the party wizards are breezing through combats and making it very difficult on the DM, or making the game dull and listless for your fellow players, the DM has both the right and the obligation to approach said players and work out a solution. If that means banning the rods, so be it. It could also be as simple as nerfing them, or compensating the players with equivellent magic items.
Now while they're not cheap they can be quite powerful magic items in the hands of casters.
As opposed to how weak they are in the hands of non-casters? ;)
If you really break it down your basically paying to upgrade spells saving yourself a feat and the higher level spell slot. Or in another way your paying for a larger number of your higher level slots
I'm not so sure you're saving yourself a feat. Maybe. Especially if you have a crappy metamagic rod of a feat you would never take. But if you have a cool metamagic rod, Extend or Quicken for example, you probably won't be satisfied with just two extended spells per day, so you'll probably take the feat anyway (buying more and more rods can eat into the funds very quickly).
From a metagaming view point a 5th level mage would have enough gold to buy a metamagic rod of empower and all his evoker blasties would be doing 50% more damage
now of course this is tempered by the GM since he'd have to be near insane to give such an item to a 5th level mage or plan on throwing high CR mobs at him.
It's not as bad as all that. Empower is inherently weak because evocation is weak. So what if the 5th level mage Empowers a fireball. It goes from doing about 17 damage to about 25. And half the stuff he casts it on will save, so it really went from doing around 8 HP to around 12 to those guys. If they're not fire-resistant.
And what if he uses it on his Magic Missiles? Even worse.
And even if he does get good use out of it, well, that's only twice per day. He might have gotten much better and more consistent use out of a +1 Cloak of Resistance, +1 Ring of Protection, +2 Bracers of Armor, and 3 Pearls of Power for 3 extra daily uses of Magic Missile or Enlarge Person or Color Spray, or whatever - for the same cost.
Me, I would take that list of many items over a two-use Metamagic Rod of Empower.
The quintessential rod is of course the quicken rod. Which effectively doubles your actions in a round by letting you fire off 2 spells instead of 1. most often used as 1 offensive main spell and a quickened buff spell.
Now you're onto something here. Economy of Actions. Anything you can do to get an extra action in a round is worth its weight in gold.
I guess what I'm really asking is do they cost enough ?
Absolutely.
Even the Quicken rod at 35,000 gp costs enough. According to the Wealth-by-Level table, by the time a mage can afford even one of those (or by the time it is appropriate for him to find one in a treasure hoard), he will only be able to quicken two of his lowbie spells - he will certainly be whipping around Cloudkills and Disintegrates and Chain Lightnings, so a quickened Haste or two won't really be too big a deal.
should they be more expensive for what they are offering which is quite a lot when you think about it, (saves you a feat and a higher level spell slot)
Nope.
Being limited to two uses/day is a big limitation, unless your DM likes to just give you one encounter each day and let you go Nova with all your best stuff in every fight. Heck, if I had a rod of Quicken, I would probably not use it in most fights; I would want to save it for the really deadly fights. I might go to bed some nights with my rod unused because the fight I was saving it for never happened.
That's a big limitation. Casters are used to conserving their resources. It's very easy to conserve a Metamagic Rod right into near-uselessness.
Even if used perfectly, two great uses and then it gets put away in the backpack until tomorrow - that's when a clever DM whips out the BBEG...
considering the progressive increase in number of available spells at higher levels would there be cause for meta magic feats to use slots of the same or lower level to improve them ? or for meta magic rods to allow the use of multiple same level slots for higher level effects?
e.g. if quicken cost 4 spell slots of the same level to cast instead of 1 slot 4 level higher ?
Absolutely positively not. There is no way I would give up a total of FIVE third-level slots to cast one Quickened Haste. Not a chance.
Never.
No Way.
out of curiosity are there any casters out there who wouldn't jump all over a lesser quicken rod the first chance they got over something else of similar value ?
I wouldn't.
Not even close.
For example, if I'm starting a new campaign and my DM says "Roll up a 9th level wizard and you have 46,000 GP to spend on gear" (according to the Wealth By Level chart), there is no way I would blow 35,000 of that on a Rod of Quicken.
That would only leave me 11,000 to defend/protect myself. And that is assuming I don't spend any of it on spells (a 9th level wizard might want more than 2 5th level spells, 4 4th, 4 3rd, 4 2nd, and 10 1st level spells in his spellbook).
No, that 46,000 GP will go into several key defensive items, a couple wands, a few spells, some pre-made scrolls, a little emergency healing, and maybe even a magic bow for those fights when I just don't want to expend any more spells.
Now, on the other hand, if I were making a 15th level wizard with 240,000 GP to purchase gear, then yeah, I might get one. But that hardly counds as "the first chance they got" (which is what you asked).
In my opinion the real beauty of thies rods is where all mages shine, that is when they have prep time.
There is no reason not to apply the avalable feat to aney and every creation project the mage undertakes.
stuff
Metamagic rods are usable 3 times per day by the way.
Otherwise I mostly agree, the quicken rod is a good use of your gold at any level, but alot of good stuff is actually very cheap.. for 35k you can have a hoard of lesser items that doesn't eat spell slots and are continuously active / can not be dispelled (not easily anyway).
cloak of resistance +3 (9k)
belt of physical might +2 dex/con (10k)
headband of intelligence +4 (16k)
I am not so sure you would want to trade this stuff for a metamagic rod of quicken, main trouble is that you are a bit of a glass cannon, the metamagic rod is not fixing your major weaknesses not in every encounter of the day at least.
stuffMetamagic rods are usable 3 times per day by the way.
Ahh, good catch. I guess I was mixing those up in my head with Eternal Wands.
One extra time per day doesn't really change my opionion of them though.
out of curiosity are there any casters out there who wouldn't jump all over a lesser quicken rod the first chance they got over something else of similar value ?
Given a 35k magic item budget (8th/9th level) and a Magicmart down the street. I don't think any of my casters would select the quicken rod among their magic items.
Given a 70k (10th/11th level) magic item budget it does not fit in.
Given a 105k (12th level) magic item budget it starts to get possible consideration.
Given a 140k (13th level) magic item budget it gets serious consideration.
Of course, throw in a "I can craft this myself" 50% discount, and suddenly, for 35k I can get 70k worth of magic items. 17.5k for a rod of quicken, and 17.5k for headband of int+4, belt of con/dex +2, and cloak of resistance +3.
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Of course, throw in a "I can craft this myself" 50% discount, and suddenly, for 35k I can get 70k worth of magic items. 17.5k for a rod of quicken, and 17.5k for headband of int+4, belt of con/dex +2, and cloak of resistance +3.
out of curiosity are there any casters out there who wouldn't jump all over a lesser quicken rod the first chance they got over something else of similar value ?
Given a 35k magic item budget (8th/9th level) and a Magicmart down the street. I don't think any of my casters would select the quicken rod among their magic items.
Given a 70k (10th/11th level) magic item budget it does not fit in.
Given a 105k (12th level) magic item budget it starts to get possible consideration.
Given a 140k (13th level) magic item budget it gets serious consideration.
Good point why buy it when you can make it. I think at Higher levels this is more appropriate anyways as the party may have a safe haven, Lair, or stronghold, or even a large house in some town where they can take a few weeks off to make alot of worthy magic items. Which would be a Priority for any Mage in the first place.
Good point why buy it when you can make it. I think at Higher levels this is more appropriate anyways as the party may have a safe haven, Lair, or stronghold, or even a large house in some town where they can take a few weeks off to make alot of worthy magic items. Which would be a Priority for any Mage in the first place.Of course, throw in a "I can craft this myself" 50% discount, and suddenly, for 35k I can get 70k worth of magic items. 17.5k for a rod of quicken, and 17.5k for headband of int+4, belt of con/dex +2, and cloak of resistance +3.
out of curiosity are there any casters out there who wouldn't jump all over a lesser quicken rod the first chance they got over something else of similar value ?
Given a 35k magic item budget (8th/9th level) and a Magicmart down the street. I don't think any of my casters would select the quicken rod among their magic items.
Given a 70k (10th/11th level) magic item budget it does not fit in.
Given a 105k (12th level) magic item budget it starts to get possible consideration.
Given a 140k (13th level) magic item budget it gets serious consideration.
Actually, the crafting rules let you spend a small amount of time per day crafting while you travel. 8 hours march, 4 hours crafting, 4 hour watch, 8 hours sleep. I think crafting on the march is half as efficient(4 hours crafting on the march = 2 hours crafting at home)
The only place where this can't be done is when you have campaigns with strict deadlines. IE "The goblin army will be here in 3 days, we have to get the city defenses ready...."
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It's also super handy if you have it constructed to double as a light mace. :)
I've found a rod of extend to be quite useful, especially at lower levels. The one conjuror I played got one in a treasure pile and it was very handy with his summoned creatures (summoner, varisian tattoo and extend made for creatures that stuck around for a while).
Plus you get to make all kinds of immature jokes about using your rod of extend. :)
Just on the crafting
when you do start being able to make metamagic rods consider that making the normal and greater rods isn't that expensive
37'750 get you a rod of quicken that can quicken 6th level or lower. thats a considerable step up in available spell power for double the price of the lesser rod.
which means at 11th/12th this is well within budget reach and is quickening your best spells.
first thing that came to my mind
swift transmute rock to mud
move, allow enmies to sink a bit
std, cast transmute mud to rock
and gotcha 1 round and the enemy is quite effectiley imobilised.
or
2 walls of force to breakup a numerically superior enemy force or make the flying space avilable quite cramped to impreed flying enemies with poor manuverbility.
Swift dimension door, which is basically get out jail/grapple free ;)
or
swift DDoor
use you move action to pick somthing up or drop somthing at your detination
std action DDoor away again
there's alot more intersting combos within these levels.
I don't know. The lesser rod has quite a bang for the buck.
Just looking at useful 1-3 spells that are still useful at higher levels.
Wizard
Haste - Really good offensive buff
Slow - Great save or suck spell
Grease - Always halves movement speed.
Obscuring Mist - Good battlefield control
True Strike - Make sure your disintegrate hits, especially against concealment.
Glitter Dust - Best anti-invisible/anti-stealth
Invisibility/Fly - Good escapes, quickened to not provoke AoO
Blink/Displacement/Mirror image - Good defensive buffs
Dispel Magic
Cleric
Prayer - Decent buff/Debuff all in one spell
Invisibility purge - Great anti invisibility spell
Deeper Darkness - Battlefield control
Cure Serious - Quickened for an emergency self heal
Stone Shape - Battlefield control
Some of these spells are useful all the way up to level 20.
If I get into 3 fights a day, a lesser quicken rod lets me open with a quickened haste + some other spell.