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Perhaps I misunderstand the Hell knights. I had assumed they were Lawful Evil in alignment. After all I believe they emulate Hell. To me it sounds like they only care for the application of the law in its harshest form, irregardless of mercy, irregardless of the “spirit” of the law, whose only concern is the letter of the law, and only if that can be fashioned into a cudgel or scourge.
They seem to be shock troops sent in to disperse a mob with the edge of their swords, at the order of a government or sovern, irregardless of weather this mob gathered for political reasons or because they were starving.
The ends justify the means. These are my impressions of the hell knights.
My impression is that the Hell knights, on the whole are a Lawful Evil leaning organization.
Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps my impressions are incorrect.
To me this would make sense. If Paladins are Lawful good, Hell knights are Lawful Evil, Anit Paladins are Chaotic Evil, well im sure we can figure out what might be Chaotic good, and anyways I digress.
I have noticed in the Faction guide, the Hell knights are listed as Lawful Neutral.
I have also noticed on page 62 of Pathfinder #17, in the article on the hell knights, there is a paladin listed in the ranks. This seems at odds with my understanding of paladins. how could a paladin serve the hellkinghts?
Perhaps I have missed something about the hell knights.
How is the organization Lawful Neutral? And how could a paladin serve in such a harsh unforgiving organization? Perhaps i have missed something.
Thanks
The are not evil as a whole, many are but the hellknights do not serve hell, in fact hell serves them. The see the Legions of hell as perfection of order, the strength of discipline. They are the law. They do not seek to twist the law, they do not seek to use loopholes, they are order without mercy, Law without pity, they are the fist of order they care nothing for circumstance or accident. For them, righteousness is a clear, a single path, and in a world of of corruption.
The orders of hellknights are the embodiment of Lawful neutral. They enforce the Law, instill order, maintain discipline. They do not seek to twist the laws in their favor as an evil group would. And some of them are evil, but each and everyone believes in the righteousness of the cause.They believe the hard road they walk is needed.
Order must be maintained and they will Maintain it.
As for paladins, it is really all in the order of hell knights and what they do rather paladins would fit in. The godclaw has one if I recall, but that fits with what the godclaw does,which is more or less a divine
crusade to set the world right
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Hellknights are LN. They believe in ultimate law detached from morality and other normative systems. They are, in essence, hardcore legal positivists. Morality is a "nonsense on stilts" for the Hellknights, for it clouds judgement, and any "spirit" of law is irrelevant as it has no normative character. Only rules as written matter.
Such view was commonplace in the legal theory up to WW2. You might want to check out the works and views of Jeremy Bentham, John Austin and H.L.A. Hart. Those great legal philospohers advocated a perception of law that many Hellknights would give an approving nod.
To that end, the Hellknights have adopted several methods of organizational and military aspects of Hell. They did not, however, sign any pacts with devils or swear loyalty to Asmodeus. They hold that the end justifies the means, and as such using tactics and ways born in the place of ultimate lawfulness - the Hell - is acceptable.
You should read the two articles on Hellknights that appear in the Council of Thieves AP. They explain the philosophy and membership of Hellknights, including how does a LG Paladin fit in there.
Also, Hellknights are independent from governments and take orders from none. They enforce their own vision of justice, and every Hellknight order has his own particular field of expertise. And order that hunts monsters or undead might be a great place for Paladin to hone his skills.
Perhaps I misunderstand the Hell knights. I had assumed they were Lawful Evil in alignment.
There we have it again: They're not evil, just misunderstood!
"Associates: While she may adventure with good or
neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters
or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code.
Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally
with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes
to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement
spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and
should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is
doing more harm than good."
If the hell knights have a large number of LE members it seems either very silly of the paladin to join or he has alot of atonement to do, unless he actually joins but does not work together which kinda goes against the Hell Knight philosophy I think.
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"Associates: While she may adventure with good or
neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters
or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code.
Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally
with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes
to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement
spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and
should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is
doing more harm than good."If the hell knights have a large number of LE members it seems either very silly of the paladin to join or he has alot of atonement to do, unless he actually joins but does not work together which kinda goes against the Hell Knight philosophy I think.
I disagree on this, mainly due to the point that the LAWFUL part of the LE is what REALLY defines the order of the hellknights. The main reason they are viewed as evil is because they could care less about the implications of enforcement, intent of the thing or the execution. Good looks on such pitiless stringent crackdowns as stepping over some moral line. The hellknights are oblivious to said line and work outside of morality as a whole.
A pally with his pomp and air of grace and intent to do only good might find himself uncomfortable with such heavy handed bruisers occasionally, and questioning their methods but he should above all respect the role they are at least attempting to play.It is a matter of degrees.
Say Evil is south while Good is north.
Now lets say Lawful is east and Chaotic is west.
The Hellknights would end up being something like East-Southeast.
If hellknights are LAWFUL neutral, following Hell's strict codes of law without morals, might-is-right attitudes, I can't see a paladin lasting long in their ranks. Maybe he would start out there, but it would take long before lawful GOOD ends up clashing with LAWFUL neutral/evil.
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Thank you all for your thoughtful answers.
Seekersofshadowlight,
“They are not evil as a whole, many are but the hellknights do not serve hell, in fact hell serves them.
In my opinion, you have brought up one of “Hell’s” most useful tools of seduction, that is the illusion that hell serves you; especially if a LE outsider’s ultimate aim is to influence your characters actions and choices to gradually shift your character’s alignment to LE, and thus harvest another soul for hell.
"They see the Legions of hell as perfection of order, the strength of discipline. They are the law”
Hmm again this would be a misconception on the part of the Hellknights, they are seeing the Lawful, and orderly aspects of the legions of hell without taking their entirety into account, that they are Lawful Evil. Perhaps this is part of some subtle long-term plan of Asmodeus, which is to shift the application of law from evenness towards brutality which would certainly fit in with Asmodeus’s interest in tyranny.
“The orders of hellknights are the embodiment of Lawful neutral. They enforce the Law, instill order, maintain discipline. They do not seek to twist the laws in their favor as an evil group would. And some of them are evil, but each and everyone believes in the righteousness of the cause.They believe the hard road they walk is needed.”
Order must be maintained and they will Maintain it.
I do agree with you, this is the very example of how I might view Lawful Neutral.
As for weather paladins fit in, I think the harsh and unyielding lawful nature of these orders would conflict with the good nature of paladins rather then what the orders do.
Again Seekersofshadowlight, thanks for your thoughts.
Gorbacz, thank you for pointing out Jeremy Bentham, John Austin and H.L.A. Hart to me. Perhaps I should take a look at them.
“To that end, the Hellknights have adopted several methods of organizational and military aspects of Hell. They did not, however, sign any pacts with devils or swear loyalty to Asmodeus. They hold that the end justifies the means, and as such using tactics and ways born in the place of ultimate lawfulness - the Hell - is acceptable.”
Gorbacz, I would also put forth, that the Hellknights wouldn’t need to sign any pact nor swear allegiance to any devils or Asmodeus himself, in order to fulfill Asmodeus’s goals. I would guess a lack of direct links might prove an efficient tool of recruiting and seduction for hell. Gorbacz, while I can see that the Hellknights have adopted some of the organizational structures of Hell, in particularly the concept that the “ends justify the means, I would put forth that it is the Hellknights misconception that hell is the ultimate source of law. Abadar would probably disagree with this, and Asmodeus would enjoy such a subtle misconception. The ends justifying the means after all can lead many “good” characters to committing the greatest evil atrocities. It is often how villains justify their actions.
Gorbacz thank you for pointing my nose in the direction of the hellknights article, it has been most useful. Also thank you for pointing out to me that the Hellknights are not part of any governmental organization. I had previously thought they were a “paramilitary” arm of Cheliax, and actively supported by the Church of Asmodeus.
Yae Koss, thank you for injecting some humor into this. Heh Yes the Hellknights are simply misunderstood. Just as Darth Vader is simply misunderstood. He only wanted to save his lady love, He only wanted to “bring an end to this distructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy”. hmm would Darth Vader be a Hellknight? he certainly looks like one.
Remco, I agree, a paladin would find it difficult if not impossible to be a hellknight. A former paladin would be another thing entirely. Perhaps one who had lost his faith would make an excellent hellknight, persueing its order’s precepts with a trememdous amount of zeolocy. That would make an interesting NPC villan. Hmm this has possibilities. An NPC paladin who worked with the PCs, early in their carrier, has a crisis of faith, looses it, and leaves the party, and returns as a Hellknight. Yes this has possibilities.
Gorbazs you are correct, the text of the published materiel says that the hellknights are lawful neutral. I suppose this just means, that in our home games we can change things as we like. I think I will simply make an adjustment for my home games to LE.
TheMetricSystem
“I disagree on this, mainly due to the point that the LAWFUL part of the LE is what REALLY defines the order of the hellknights. The main reason they are viewed as evil is because they could care less about the implications of enforcement, intent of the thing or the execution. Good looks on such pitiless stringent crackdowns as stepping over some moral line. The hellknights are oblivious to said line and work outside of morality as a whole.
A pally with his pomp and air of grace and intent to do only good might find himself uncomfortable with such heavy handed bruisers occasionally, and questioning their methods but he should above all respect the role they are at least attempting to play.
It is a matter of degrees. 
Say Evil is south while Good is north. 
Now lets say Lawful is east and Chaotic is west. 
The Hellknights would end up being something like East-Southeast.”
I think you make an excellent point Themetricsystem. I like your directional analogy. Yes from a good perspective, a crackdown could be considered evil because they “could care less about the implications of enforcement intent of the thing or the execution.”
Now I can understand how the Hellknighs are “oblivious to said line” and how the Hellknights believe that they “ work outside morality as a whole”, however, all actions can be viewed through a moral lens, regardless of what the actual perpetrators of such actions believe themselves. The morality of actions of course comes into play with the alignment system, when Law Chaos Good and Evil are objectively observable qualities through detect alignment spells, and with various outer planes having qualities of the alignment system as part of their makeup.
I do like the alignment system because it is a short had for both describing a character, area, etc. I like that the system is open to our own interpretation, and we can choose if we want to interpret alignment strictly or loosely. If I may quite Obiwan Kenobi, “ a great many things depend on your perspective”. And I will admit my perspective is colored by both my beliefs and character. Personally I prefer the alignment system to represent a character’s tendencies, not for it to be a strait jacket. I do like how Golaron has plenty of ambiguity in it. However, I do however; prefer when I run a game world to paint in more definite strokes. The ambiguity allows me to apply my own personal interpretation.
While as written the Hellknights are LN. I think in my home games I will shift things slightly to fit my tastes. I will probably make the organization LE, and give it plenty of support from Cheliax and the Church of Asmodeus. It seems like it would make an excellent foil for the PCS.
Dabbler I agree. A paladin wouldn’t last long in the Hellknights as a paladin. He would either leave, or lose his abilities.
I suppose it comes down to this. I don’t believe the ends justify the means. And if you choose to model your organization after an extra planar model of Lawful Evil, that will leave its mark on your organization. If the Hellknights emulated Abadar, or some other extra planar LN embodiment of law, I cant think of one at the moment, then it would it would make sense to me that they strive to be the perfect representation and execution of the law. But they haven't, they have modeled themselves after Hell. My problem with them is that they look to Hell as their example, which is LE. This can’t help but influence the Hellknight organization.
Well those are my thoughts, and thanks for listening to my thoughts, and thanks for sharing with me your thoughts and helping me clarifying some things about the Hellknights.
Your looking as all orders as one group, they are not.Hell knights are not one single order. Paladins would not fit well with some orders but thrive in others such as the Godclaw.
Look at the leadership. Out of the 21 listed they brake down as follows
LG=5
LN=8
LE=3
Your still seeing them as evil where they are not. Think judge dread, they are about order, not evil. And yes hell has influenced them, look at the orders as a whole and you will see it, yet it is not evil they service. They serve law and order and believe that is it for the good of the many they enforce this order and walk the hard path.
Another note: you do yourself a disservice as a GM to only use them as evil, it is a rare thing to have a non-evil entity or group that puts the fear of the Gods into your pc's. The hell knights do this. Don't throw such a gem away simply because devils are evil.
If I remember things right from the Council of Thieves AP, different orders of Hellknights are variously LE or LN.
LG could, theoretically, be a Hellknight, but you are correct, that individual wouldn't last long, as the Hellknights have no "good" about them, except incidental to the effect Law has.
Just remember, that alignment is not a straightjacket of an individual's actions. LN people can do good acts. LE people can do good acts. They could do chaotic acts, too. Hellknights, being what they are, are bound by a stricter code, much like paladins are to their LG alignment.
A Hellknight showing charity may earn the disapproval of his superiors, while someone acting in an emotional fashion (i.e. chaotic) would be shown the error of his ways, probably in a way that would leave scars.
LG could, theoretically, be a Hellknight, but you are correct, that individual wouldn't last long, as the Hellknights have no "good" about them, except incidental to the effect Law has.
This in incorrect really. The founder of the godclaw was a paladin, True ex as her god was dead, but 5 of the upper leadership are LG.
*Armiger Regan Vashan (LG female paladin 3) Order of the GodClaw
*Mistress of Blades Maidrayne Vox (LG female centaur fighter 3, ranger 3, hellknight 2) Order of the Nail
*Master of Blades Tros Garvhost (LG maledwarf fighter 4, cleric 2, hellknight 3) Order of the Pyre
*Master of Blades Uldrannas Haelcant (LG male fighter 7, hellknight 1) Order of the Scourge
*Paravicar Orlayn Khorelos (LG female cleric of Abadar 7, hellknight 2) Order of the Scourge
No lictor is LG however 3 being LE and 4 being LN. Both LE and LG are known to the order but LN dominate it
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Seekerforshadowlight, and Doug’s Workshop, Thank you both for your thoughts.
I have taken the time to re read the article on hell knights and their description in the faction guide. I do see that as written the hell knights are not evil. I also see that the orders are separate not a monolithic whole as I originally thought. I also see that they are separate from the state of Cheliax, and the church of Asmodeus.
And perhaps it would be worth while to use the hell knights as written. You make a good point about a LN opponent for the PCS being a rare thing.
Doug’s workshop I agree that alignment isn’t a strait jacket, merely the overall tendencies of the individual.
I would also point out, that while LN enforcing the laws of Cheliax would have to leave their mark on you.
And yes as written there are indeed LG members of the order of the god claw.
However I still feel that a paladin would not last long as a member of the hell knights.
While I do like the majority of what has been written by Paizo about Golaron, the new source book of Kaer Maga, and the sourcebok on Korvosa, being excellently written, I do feel free to modify what I want .
For example in my home games, the negative energy plane is evilly aligned, and the positive energy plane is good aligned. While I do allow clerics and Favored souls, now oracles to draw their spells from and worship, a god / pantheon/ spirits / ancestors / demon lords / arch Devils, I do not allow the cleric who worships a “concept” such as good or law or evil etc. Bards and rangers get their spells by nominally venerating a goddess of art beauty, for bards, and nature for rangers.
Again thank you both for taking the time for responding to my questions.
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A Paladin will stay in his order of Hellknights unless his god forbids it. He will try to change their way towards Good through his example but will still serve loyally.
After all, the greatest test of honor lies in serving honorably a dishonorable master.
Of course, it is not easy, but then, if you were looking for the easy way, you would probably not be a Paladin to begin with.
A Paladin will stay in his order of Hellknights unless his god forbids it. He will try to change their way towards Good through his example but will still serve loyally.
After all, the greatest test of honor lies in serving honorably a dishonorable master.
Of course, it is not easy, but then, if you were looking for the easy way, you would probably not be a Paladin to begin with.
Hellknight leader: "String these peasants up as an example to the others!"
Paladin Hellknight: "On what charges?"
Hellknight leader: "On charges of me making an example of them. I don't care if they are guilty or not, it'll send a message to the rebels we aren't to be trifled with - now do it!"
So, does he serve loyally and kill the innocent (welcome to the world of being a sh*tty fighter!) or remain a paladin and rebel?
I seem to recall that "My Honour is Loyalty" was the motto of a group of people who committed the worst atrocities against humanity in the 20th century ... and THAT is what is the scary thing about the hellknights.
Creative Director
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A Paladin will stay in his order of Hellknights unless his god forbids it. He will try to change their way towards Good through his example but will still serve loyally.
After all, the greatest test of honor lies in serving honorably a dishonorable master.
Of course, it is not easy, but then, if you were looking for the easy way, you would probably not be a Paladin to begin with.
Hellknight leader: "String these peasants up as an example to the others!"
Paladin Hellknight: "On what charges?"
Hellknight leader: "On charges of me making an example of them. I don't care if they are guilty or not, it'll send a message to the rebels we aren't to be trifled with - now do it!"
So, does he serve loyally and kill the innocent (welcome to the world of being a sh*tty fighter!) or remain a paladin and rebel?
I seem to recall that "My Honour is Loyalty" was the motto of a group of people who committed the worst atrocities against humanity in the 20th century ... and THAT is what is the scary thing about the hellknights.
See... the thing is that Hellknights wouldn't string up peasants in the first place to set examples. They would certainly string up a bunch of criminals to set examples, but not innocents. So this situation likely wouldn't occur. Unless it were LEGAL to just string up innocent peasants. Which, even in Cheliax, it's not.
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Another interesting point from the Council of Thieves AP, in the article on Asmodeus, it is briefly touched on that Asmodeus has had Paladins in his service... whether they get their powers from Asmodeus or from another Lawful Deity that Asmodeus has brokered a deal with is left the DM.
From the Faction Guide, it indicates that high ranking Hell Knights are basically leadership positions tied to cities and citadels. So being a lower rank Hell Knight means you will be out and about smiting chaos, and thus not rubbing shoulders with the members of the order who might be evil.
See... the thing is that Hellknights wouldn't string up peasants in the first place to set examples. They would certainly string up a bunch of criminals to set examples, but not innocents. So this situation likely wouldn't occur. Unless it were LEGAL to just string up innocent peasants. Which, even in Cheliax, it's not.
And yet on CoT the Hellknights are definitely presented as a tool of oppression. Cheliax is a place where it is almost impossible to not break some law, which makes some of those laws clearly unjust. The leader of the Children of Westcrown was en-route to be tortured by Hellknights in the opening scenarios, and last time I checked torture was an evil act. Sorry, but the Hellknights are not presented as an organisation where it is easy to be a LG Paladin. I genuinely think, given the presentation there, that a paladin would eventually be confronted with performing a legal but evil act, or leaving.
Reading the entire article on Hell Knights, I too was utterly unconvinced that they were LN order. I tend to look at the LN alignment listing as marketing in game: it's what they believe, it helps attract recruits, but it's not really true.
The Hellknights in CoT belong to the Order of the Rack, which is focused on hunting down heretics, rebels and insurgents. There are other Orders, focused on stuff far easier for a Paladin to handle, such as hunting monsters or undead (remember, it's D&D, Undead are Eeeevil !)
That's fair comment, perhaps other orders do work that way.
Reading the entire article on Hell Knights, I too was utterly unconvinced that they were LN order. I tend to look at the LN alignment listing as marketing in game: it's what they believe, it helps attract recruits, but it's not really true.
That's the impression I got as well. If you are LN, but enforcing LE laws, well, you aren't really LN.
That's the impression I got as well. If you are LN, but enforcing LE laws, well, you aren't really LN.
If they are enforcing LE laws along side LG laws they are still Lawful Neutral. Hellknights have been repeatedly referenced as the "Judges" from Judge Dread. I Am The Law... They are the epitome of the old Paladin viewpoint of Lawful stupid sometimes. They are filled with zeal for it.
If they are enforcing LE laws along side LG laws they are still Lawful Neutral. Hellknights have been repeatedly referenced as the "Judges" from Judge Dread. I Am The Law... They are the epitome of the old Paladin viewpoint of Lawful stupid sometimes. They are filled with zeal for it.
That's the impression I got as well. If you are LN, but enforcing LE laws, well, you aren't really LN.
Neutral != sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent, but may lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.
Emphasis mine.
When you don't care if you hurt people or not, you aren't being neutral, you are being evil. Not horribly evil, but still evil. Imposing the law without caring if it is good or evil is slanting toward evil. Evil is like that - it doesn't ask you to do anything to be evil, except nothing. It's easy, and it's convenient.
To be neutral, you at least are looking after your own, and you want things to be good, you just aren't going to stick your neck out over it.
Neutral != sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Yep, I think this resolves a lot of the issue.
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I think here is a good example of Hell Knights in action.
A Lord needs assistance restoring order to his lands after he imposes new tax's and food rationing as he must now feed and pay for his Army that is now engaged.
The workers, peasants begin vandalizing the Lords property and assaulting the Local Magistrate, page, and Herald for example. They have also assaulted some of the Milita and the town is in complete Chaos.
The Hell Knights arrive and tell the Lord they will restore order, and they do... They Hang a few of the instigators in the Town Square, however the townsfolk riot more, the Hell Knights then use "Drastic" action and Kill several townsfolk.
The Townsfolk seeing that they cannot win at all, submit and order is restored.
The Hell Knights have accomplished their mission by restoring order and Law to the land. In a really simple way.. Brute force and possibly some low level Paladin spells if they have any.
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When you don't care if you hurt people or not, you aren't being neutral, you are being evil. Not horribly evil, but still evil. Imposing the law without caring if it is good or evil is slanting toward evil. Evil is like that - it doesn't ask you to do anything to be evil, except nothing. It's easy, and it's convenient.
You might care about hurting people (ie, not evil) or even feel real bad about it (ie, good), but still do it nonetheless because it is required for the greater good and/or you have been ordered to do it by your legitimate superior and/or not doing it will bring a punishment all its own (they torture and kill you and your family in addition to hurting the first victims).
I don't see Hellknights hunting down your family because you did not do you duty. You yes, but that is because you broke your code and was delict in your duty.
Hell knights are not evil. The law is the law, good or bad, it is there to keep the land from lawlessness and chaos.. It does not matter why you broke the law, you broke it. They enforce the law, they enforce order. They do not unlawfully kill folks, or main them for kicks. They follow the letter of the law.
If you think laws are unjust then work to change them, and once changed the Hellknights will enforce the new law, but until it is changed someone needs to hold back the lawlessness and chaos.
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Personally, I think that more Evil Hellknights makes them a lot more interesting, as more evil Pathfinders would have made the Seekers After Secrets book more interesting.
It seems to me that enjoying the pain and suffering of others would be no barrier to being a Hellknight, because in Cheliax there will always be someone nearby breaking the law. I am not sure why there wouldn't be more LE Hellknights than appears to be the case, given that the context is enforcing the laws that to some extent originate Hell or at least overlap with the interests of Hell, which is, to most people's minds, not a Nice Place.
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I don't see Hellknights hunting down your family because you did not do you duty. You yes, but that is because you broke your code and was delict in your duty.
Hell knights are not evil. The law is the law, good or bad, it is there to keep the land from lawlessness and chaos.. It does not matter why you broke the law, you broke it. They enforce the law, they enforce order. They do not unlawfully kill folks, or main them for kicks. They follow the letter of the law.
I quite agree with you here, seeker. However, there are many real-life occurrences of cultures, the most well-known being asian cultures and especially Japan, where the group you belong to (your family, clan, whatever) is considered responsible for your actions and is morally or even legally expected to be punished for your offenses. Obviously, the greater the offense, the greater the collective punishment.
In fact, I would expect such a system to be prevalent in Lawful countries such as Cheliax, where the individual is considered less important than the group.
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Personally, I think that more Evil Hellknights makes them a lot more interesting, as more evil Pathfinders would have made the Seekers After Secrets book more interesting.
I do not see it in the same light. I feel that the most interesting situations arise when you break the mold.
I agree that more evil Pathfinders would make things a lot more interesting because players tend to consider the Pathfinder Society as a good organization (or neutral at worst).
However, since most players think of the Hellknights as an evil organization (or neutral at best), the situation is reversed and more good Hellknights would make things more interesting.
Otherwise, the Hellknights will quickly end up as one more 2-dimensional villainous organization that the PCs end up fighting.
I can not see a paladin putting the hellknights before their own morality, they are supposed to question unjust laws and unless I am wrong the ends should not always justify the means for a paladin.
That said a paladin is not all 'perfect' paragons of good either and the hellknights are not an obviously evil organization, as long as they do their duty most of the evil hellknights will not pick up on the paladins radar, unless they are at least 5th level. It does seem to me to be a challenge for a paladin to maintain their moral viewpoints in such an organization though.
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I do not see it in the same light. I feel that the most interesting situations arise when you break the mold.
I agree that more evil Pathfinders would make things a lot more interesting because players tend to consider the Pathfinder Society as a good organization (or neutral at worst).
However, since most players think of the Hellknights as an evil organization (or neutral at best), the situation is reversed and more good Hellknights would make things more interesting.
Otherwise, the Hellknights will quickly end up as one more 2-dimensional villainous organization that the PCs end up fighting.
Well, my point about them being more interesting would be as a functional, feared-and-respected law enforcement group that was evil, rather than as a villainous organisation that the PCs inevitably end up fighting. An evil organisation that isn't just there to be a foe is the sort of interest I think Paizo products can offer that other, less sophisticated producers generally don't.
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lets say 3 hellknights catch a small child stealing an apple...
1 hellknight is LG, 1 LN and the last is LE
the law clearly states the punishment is 10 lashes and a fine up to 10gp
the LG hellknight suggests 10 lashes and a small fine(but explains the child what he did was wrong.. the gives the 10 lashes as sofly (nonlethal)
the LN hellnight administers the 10 lashes (normal damage) and a 5gp fine(avg from 1-10)
the LE hellknight gives the 10 lashes as hard as he can (power attack) and the full fine 10gp
all 3 administer justice.. but their vows and ethics alter their view.
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Gotta say, it's hard to see any paladins getting by in the Order of the Nail after reading the Citadel Vraid entry in Castles of Golarion.
Ironically, it is easier to see them getting by in Cheliax, like in the order and AP Gorbacz mentioned.
So wait, what is told about Citadel Vraid and such?
I always thought the Order of the Nail was a less Evil one.
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So wait, what is told about Citadel Vraid and such?
I always thought the Order of the Nail was a less Evil one.
Their policy towards the Shoanti got bumped from suppressing the culture and keeping them confined past certain borders to outright genocide.
That and the sacrificing, sending innocnet souls to Hell, etc.
That's not Lawful Neutral. The second-in-command couldn't be Lawful Good with that kind of behaviour. However, I'm more curious as to who wrote that entry in Castles of Golarion. I want to know who ruined my favourite Hellknight Order while also missing the point of the organization. I'll also ignore Castles of Golarion's entry concerning Citadel Vraid, as it is clearly non-canon and probably just political slander written by some ignorant agent of Andoran who saw one rotten LE Hellknight killing Shoanti instead of doing something more in line with the Order's goals.
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As the resident Brit, please may I request that all references to the UK's (and indeed, the world's) finest and most consistently-written strip, from the Galaxy's Greatest Comic, and first alien editor, be made to Judge Dredd.
Judge Dread is a now-deceased white reggae star. And I don't think he'd have lasted five minutes in the Hellknights, of any Order.
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The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that really, he's more about being LAWFUL than about being EVIL, so you know, he must not be all that bad.
In my take on the setting, whatever alignment the Hellknights pretend to be, their actions will out. You cannot practice "order without mercy, law without pity" (to quote an earlier poster) and get justice on the other end. You cannot emulate Hell without reflecting its nature. And whatever they may believe (or whatever Asmodeus may have allowed them to believe), Hell definitely does not serve the Hellknights.
The Hellknights were originally founded by a man emotionally devastated by his son's suicide. He became obsessed with the idea that his son had been consigned to Hell for his sins, and spent the rest of his life searching for a way to set his son's soul free -- which is to say, for a way to cheat Hell. And at the end of his life, the founder of the Hellknights set fire to his library and rode out into the night, never to be seen again.
There is a very intriguing story implied between those lines, if you look for it.