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I would love to see an Adventure Path that, for the most part, took place in one HUGE dungeon complex. It would be awesome to play through a well put together and congruent exploration like that. I think Paizo could do a great magacrawl that would appeal to old and new schoolers alike! (they could easily do better than that mess "World Largest Dungeon")
Anybody else be interested in an AP like that?
Like Rappan Athuk modules. I loved those.
from what i remember of the temple of elemental evil it was mostly like that
That would be interesting
How about an AP where each installment was a delegate dungeon crawl. In each adventure the party had to uncover a certain artifact
I'd like this depending on how it was done. I wouldn't mind a slightly more story oriented campaign dungeon as long as there was a lot of opportunities for more open-ended exploration.
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Not me so much.
I love giant dungeons occassionally but with Maure Castle and ToEE and Castle Greyhawk and Ptolus and Undermountain and Rappan Athuk and the Mud Sorcerer's Tomb and White Plume Mt and bazillions of small-time dungeon crawls that I can grab off my shelf whenever I'm in the mood, . . . Well, I don't want a 6 volume AP that's nothing but awesome dungeon rooms.
Continue to give me the fluff of story-lines and creative NPCs sprinkled with novel dungeon crawls.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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I think the idea of a paizo mega-dungeon is a great one, and would be something I would love to see happen as the result of, say, a Necromancer Games / Paizo partnership.
Necromancer's got the dungeon-building chops, AND a sincere love of old-school dungeon gaming. Paizo's got the sandbox and player base.
Not sure the AP is the right product to try out a megadungeon, but I do think you've got a good deal of interest in SOME kind of official paizo dungeon-crawl.
I got it!
Bards Tale.
You start out in the town of Skara Brae and have to clean out a tangle of alleys and buildings. Then you clean out the cellar under the tavern, and the sewers below that. You can then fight your way past the stone statues and into the castle and towers!
In all seriousness, I think a sprawling maze of halls, doors and rooms would be alright. A huge crawl that brought the characters into another world or crazy setting would be epic. Perhaps it is something like the old descent into the depths/against the drow, or a siege assault on a small corner of the first plane of Hell. Maybe the characters are shrunk down to 1" tall, and have to cross an abandoned wizards college. A really interesting, memorable setting that might not otherwise fit well into a campaign or work as a smaller one-off adventure.
... *suddenly has a mental image of a number of abandoned darklands cities connected by who knows how many chambers and tunnels*
Could be awesome. On the other hand...I'm wary of dungeon crawls. But I like the idea. ^_^
I think this would be great lots of people were worried how they would handle kingmaker and it was great.So id bet Paizo could handle a megadungeon AP and it would be just as great
I'd like to see this too. Especially if it had great interaction with the city/area around it. Like the type of interaction present in the Whispering Cairn(Age of Worms part 1), one of my favorite adventures.
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If we DO do a megadungeon AP... we absolutely won't be abandoning story or NPC interaction or roleplaying. In fact, presenting a megadungeon that works both as a megadungeon AND as an AP with strong story or NPC elements would be a fun challenge!
Megadungeon?
More like MegaFUNgeon!
Seriously though. A huge and vasty dungeon of warring elements (err factions) would be an interesting campaign to run. Treasure, monsters, insidious Rube Goldberg traps, and a team of hapless adventurers. It's the stuff nostalgia is built from.
I think Kaer Maga would be the best location for this, but a new city built atop a grand Megadungeon might be cool too.
What about Orv?
Or have we already had a mega-dungeon Adventure Path?
*camera pans out to show the River Kingdoms, then Golarion, then the entire Material Plane, all sitting on the floor of a dead-end room in a cosmic mega-dungeon* :P
They'd probably detail a certain amount of levels, perhaps 2-3, in addition to any sublevels, per volume. Theoretically the PCs might find they're way down to the lower levels before the next volume comes out, but since lower levels are more dangerous...
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They'd probably detail a certain amount of levels, perhaps 2-3, in addition to any sublevels, per volume. Theoretically the PCs might find they're way down to the lower levels before the next volume comes out, but since lower levels are more dangerous...Or have we already had a mega-dungeon Adventure Path?
*camera pans out to show the River Kingdoms, then Golarion, then the entire Material Plane, all sitting on the floor of a dead-end room in a cosmic mega-dungeon* :P
Each book could be a sandbox in and of itself, with defeating the final boss of the book unlocking the next area, like pretty much every dungeon based game of all time =p
They'd probably detail a certain amount of levels, perhaps 2-3, in addition to any sublevels, per volume. Theoretically the PCs might find they're way down to the lower levels before the next volume comes out, but since lower levels are more dangerous...It's the part where "the PCs might find their way down to the lower levels" that worries me. What is the GM supposed to do if the PCs go through the wrong door?
It's not as though you can just add impenetrable barriers dividing the dungeon into six parts. In addition to being painfully arbitrary, that turns the AP into six separate, consecutive dungeons instead of one cohesive mega-dungeon.
I'm afraid I don't quite get what you mean. It's not like you'd have the whole mega-dungeon prepared if you were doing a homebrew one. You'd prepare like, the first three levels or so and then develop it as you go along. Same thing with the AP, except Paizo would be making the dungeon for you. It's not like they'd get to a high enough level to actually face the challenges on the lower levels in a month's time anyway.
Creative Director
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IF we do a megadungeon AP, the methods of keeping the PCs relatively contained in their own levels would certainly be an issue; lots of folks run the APs as they come out, so we try to keep them self-contained. Frankly, I think it'd be easier to keep a megadungeon self-contained from volume to volume than it was to keep Kingmaker contained.
And a megadungeon AP certainly doesn't have to be only one dungeon per volume; it could be 3 or 4 or 5 or whatever, and between those levels there can certainly be plenty of stumbling downstairs before you're ready for that level of mayhem.
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Creative Director
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The trick there is to provide interesting and compelling encounters and dungeon stuff for the players TO explore. Hell, even putting in some "what if the PCs decide to dig through stone and get to another level" optional encounters might be cool.
But the main way to combat this is to simply put more encounters in a single adventure than most groups can get through in a month, so that by the time they ARE digging deeper, the GM will have the next volume.
I'd prefer to see every important area of the mega-dungeon mapped out and explored in the first module, with the entire mega-dungeon being re-purposed in each later module.
For example, maybe six modules like the following:
1) The PCs earn fame and fortune clearing the entire mega-dungeon of vermin.
2) The PCs are called out of retirement to stop marauders that are using the empty dungeon as a base.
3) The marauder's demonic allies invade. The PCs conduct raids while sheltering squabbling refugees in the dungeon.
4) Oops. The dungeon was designed to be a forward operating base for the demonic invasion, and is recalled to the Abyss. The PCs defend the refugees in the dungeon while searching for a way to return home.
5) The mega-dungeon crashes on the Material Plane and shatters into pieces linked by portals. Factions from numerous nations compete to control access to the mega-dungeon and its world-spanning gateways.
6) The portals through the mega-dungeon are diverted to the Abyss by a powerful demon lord. The PCs defend the many nations touched by the portals and seal the mega-dungeon before it becomes another Worldwound.Now that's the sort of mega-dungeon AP I'd like to see.
I'll pretty much buy any AP Paizo put out - however my players would hate this and I'd never run it. They like mapping new dungeons, not exploring the same one six times.
Then again, my characters have a tendency to tear dungeons apart stone by stone. Unless the dungeon is arbitrarily resistant to divination, teleportation, and numerous other kinds of magic, my character is going to convince the party go straight through the place with total disregard for all intervening barriers.
And if your party is able to utilize such powerful magics before the... fourth or fifth chapter or so, there are bigger issues at hand.
If you can complete a dungeon in three levels time, it's not a megadungeon.
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Creative Director
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I'd have to agree with Steve—an AP where the entire dungeon, more or less, was explored in the first volume would get boring. Exploring new and deeper and more powerful dungeons as you gain levels is kind of the whole point of a Megadungeon. And while we can do lots of things to prevent PCs from "skipping ahead" (we do that in EVERY AP, actually, and I like to think we've gotten pretty good at it), in the end if a GM is worried that his PCs will do just that, all he has to do is wait 6 months and the whole AP will be out anyway.
They like mapping new dungeons, not exploring the same one six times.Except a dungeon like the one I propose isn't the same in any of the four hypothetical dungeon crawl modules. (Admittedly, hypothetical modules two and three aren't dungeon crawls.)
Maybe I misunderstood then.
Ideally what I'd be looking for is something like the two old Undermountain boxed sets, except without all the empty rooms 'left for the DM'. As I say though - I'll buy anything as I'm sure Paizo would make a good job of it. It's just your concept didnt sound like a megadungeon to me (especially if the second and third modules aren't dungeon crawls).
In addition to the initial dungeon crawl, modules four, five, and six would have hard-core dungeon crawl elements in locations the PCs have never previously explored. The plane-hopping mega-dungeon would move by splicing itself onto another dungeon that exists at its destination, giving the PCs entirely new areas to explore each time it shifts around.
EDIT: And that, of course, is just one possible example of what I'm talking about. I'd like an AP where you literally finish the mega-dungeon in each module, only to discover in the next module than entirely new sections have been added to the original.
It makes no sense to arbitrarily declare that PCs can't travel between dungeon areas that are separated by space. It makes perfect sense that they can't go into dungeon areas that are separated by time. If the area you haven't prepared literally doesn't exist yet, there's a perfectly good, non-railroady reason that the PCs can't go there.
I agree that one shouldnt arbitrarily declare "Oh you can't open that door yet". However it seems to me that's a problem in any adventure path:
CoTCT Spoiler:
In my opininon, part of what makes a megadungeon a megadungeon is the history behind it and the fame which will come from conquering it. In my mind, everyone knows there are miles and miles of corridors going ever deeper below ground though as to what's at the bottom there's nothing more than rumour and wild speculation. As I see it, no matter how much you explore, you've still only scratched the surface.
Personally, I like the idea of the players gradually uncovering the story behind the dungeon as they work ever deeper through more and more inaccessible levels and sublevels - the politics of the inhabitants, the hidden secrets as to what's going on and some glimmering of how that ties in with the world's history as a whole. Hopefully all leading up to some kind of 'Ah-Ha!' moment when the PCs learn the true story - both in history and in current happenings. A dungeon which they keep finishing, then discover new areas may play the same functionally, in that it's a series of dungeon rooms and indoor encounters one after the other, but it feels different to me (though admittedly that may be my lack of imagination more than anything).
All of the above is just a preference, of course. I don't pretend to be any authority as to "what makes a true megadungeon".
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World's Largest Dungeon managed to keep certain areas to certain level ranges quite well (it suffered by not having interesting NPC interaction and story [addendum: although that stuff has been successfully implemented by some GMs, I prefer having those springboards built into the adventure as written]). There are plenty of non-handwavey ways to do this.
1) Limit the stairs down to the edges of the map. If you want to go down a level you're going to have to get through a bunch of encounters to get there. Encounters that take time.
2) Final Fantasy Weapon: Characters go down a hole and discover a creature that is far beyond their ability to defeat handily. Mark it on the map, come back later. Golems, Undead, Dragons all live very long times and are notoriously difficult to deal with.
3) Random Encounters: If the characters can't rest up are they really likely to go deeper into that dungeon? Keep the pressure on them and they'll leave the dungeon before going deeper.
4) Story: Exploring a dungeon is only as fun as your reason to be in it. Once the characters have the McGuffin, rescued the princess or killed the terrible boss monster, why wouldn't they hit up their home town and rest up for a bit, get drunk and regale the town with tales.
5) Side-Quests: If there's still more stuff to do on level 2, then why look for more trouble on Level 3?
A Megadungeon should be an AP of lots of little paths just as Kingmaker was, otherwise it can get stale very quickly. Multiple, evolving quest goals will keep the characters going back in, and you can spice it up with the occasional town encounter.
A dungeon level that's an entire village of subterranean creatures who wish to trade peacefully with the surface and require the PCs to act as ambassadors between the two worlds would make for an excellent adventure (and good rest stop at the half-way point of the dungeon).
The more I hear about this, the more I hope Paizo puts this on its schedule somewhere.
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Seems I was misunderstanding the term "mega-dungeon." So carry on. Don't mind me.
What do they say about Mega-dungeons? If you build it - they will come!
The Problem is that Megadungeon plus Adventure Path does not always equal Railroad.It will be very hard for the Adventure to be about 'exploring the megadungeon' when you are chasing the cultists down corridor B through rooms J, K, L, P, R, T, K, P...in an attempt to stop them from sacrificing Little Kimberly Rauth on the Altar of Pain and summoning the Demon Faluria.
However, if you are looking for the King's Crown (thought lost in the megadungeon) then you have a time limit to search the megadungeon and get it to Baron Goadvin so he can declare himself monarch...all the while assisted by his bastard brother who secretly intends to take the crown for himself.
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1) Limit the stairs down to the edges of the map. If you want to go down a level you're going to have to get through a bunch of encounters to get there. Encounters that take time.
2) Final Fantasy Weapon: Characters go down a hole and discover a creature that is far beyond their ability to defeat handily. Mark it on the map, come back later. Golems, Undead, Dragons all live very long times and are notoriously difficult to deal with.
3) Random Encounters: If the characters can't rest up are they really likely to go deeper into that dungeon? Keep the pressure on them and they'll leave the dungeon before going deeper.
4) Story: Exploring a dungeon is only as fun as your reason to be in it. Once the characters have the McGuffin, rescued the princess or killed the terrible boss monster, why wouldn't they hit up their home town and rest up for a bit, get drunk and regale the town with tales.
5) Side-Quests: If there's still more stuff to do on level 2, then why look for more trouble on Level 3?
A Megadungeon should be an AP of lots of little paths just as Kingmaker was, otherwise it can get stale very quickly. Multiple, evolving quest goals will keep the characters going back in, and you can spice it up with the occasional town encounter.
A dungeon level that's an entire village of subterranean creatures who wish to trade peacefully with the surface and require the PCs to act as ambassadors between the two worlds would make for an excellent adventure (and good rest stop at the half-way point of the dungeon).
The more I hear about this, the more I hope Paizo puts this on its schedule somewhere.
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Dudemeister, great examples! your 1-5 is exactly the type of thing I would love to see.
In my experience, there is/was a built-in barrier to player's "skipping ahead" in that if PC's headed down to the next level before they were the appropriate character level, they'd get demolished by the first encounter on the next level. It was built in discouragement and helped encourage players to finish a level before heading down to the next one. Either that or have the first encounter on the next level down really depend on some item that was discovered on the previous level to be defeat-able. Yes its a bit heavy-handed but I was always ok with that. You generally know/knew you better find everything you can on one level before heading down the stairs to the next level or you are likely to be making new PC's very shortly after heading down.
IF we do a megadungeon AP, the methods of keeping the PCs relatively contained in their own levels would certainly be an issue; lots of folks run the APs as they come out, so we try to keep them self-contained. Frankly, I think it'd be easier to keep a megadungeon self-contained from volume to volume than it was to keep Kingmaker contained.
And a megadungeon AP certainly doesn't have to be only one dungeon per volume; it could be 3 or 4 or 5 or whatever, and between those levels there can certainly be plenty of stumbling downstairs before you're ready for that level of mayhem.
Surely that's continually the situation in Kingmaker? Sandboxes don't have to be in the wilds!
The trick there is to provide interesting and compelling encounters and dungeon stuff for the players TO explore. Hell, even putting in some "what if the PCs decide to dig through stone and get to another level" optional encounters might be cool.
But the main way to combat this is to simply put more encounters in a single adventure than most groups can get through in a month, so that by the time they ARE digging deeper, the GM will have the next volume.
How many DM's are always running the AP's as they are released? I can't wait to run Kingmaker but my group have only just gone into the Cinderlands in CotCT!
I certainly can't keep up with the pace that you're releasing the AP's, which I think is a good thing because it gives me options. Not every AP is suited to my group and some just don't do anything for me [CoT for example].
I'd have to agree with Steve—an AP where the entire dungeon, more or less, was explored in the first volume would get boring. Exploring new and deeper and more powerful dungeons as you gain levels is kind of the whole point of a Megadungeon. And while we can do lots of things to prevent PCs from "skipping ahead" (we do that in EVERY AP, actually, and I like to think we've gotten pretty good at it), in the end if a GM is worried that his PCs will do just that, all he has to do is wait 6 months and the whole AP will be out anyway.
Assuming the DM explains that he is running an AP, the players should accept a drgree of rail-roading and story following, otherwise, frankly, they're in the wrong game!
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I would be more than interested in such an AP centered on a mega-dungeon. UnderMountain and Rappan Athuk are two of my all time favorite D&D adventures.
I mirror someone's previous comment that Kaer Maga sounds like an ideal fit to be the city above the dungeon.
Other ideas:
Darklands
The lost continent of Azlant. (A dungeon beneath the waves of lost civilizations.)
Robert
If we DO do a megadungeon AP... we absolutely won't be abandoning story or NPC interaction or roleplaying. In fact, presenting a megadungeon that works both as a megadungeon AND as an AP with strong story or NPC elements would be a fun challenge!
Yes. Yes it would. Why don't you guys ever take on challenges anymore? ::Laces track cleats::
Monte Cook's Dungeon-a-Day is pretty much what we're talking about here, so anyone who is interested should check it out. It's got a nice story & background, interesting encounters, and some built-in "going too deep" prevention.