Okay...
The other night we had a blast running through the Asmodean Knot in the CoT AP.
I'll try to avoid spoilers...
But after the party captured an adversary
But twice the paladin accepted this treatment of their captive, and he even dumped her in the hole as far as I recall...
I even stressed the point after they retrieved her the first time how she was suffering from the treatment...
And I think they are planning on letting her go, but they might still surprise me...
Now what would happen to a Paladin in your games doing a thing like this...? I might be really tempted at letting him loose his paladin-hood, but is that too harsh?
Any comments to help a fellow gamer is more than welcome... ;)
I would suggest first having some "sign" of his/her god's displeasure appear to the Paladin.
If he/she still fails to "get the message" then you would be within your rights as a GM.
A few questions?
How was she suffering?
Could the Paladin do anything to reduce that suffering?
Is there another way of securing her?
Do they have the option of leaving and releasing her?
If there is not a better way of securing her and no real opportunity of removing her from the area, stripping the Paladin of his powers would be harsh in my opinion.
If she's 'endlessly falling', then she's hardly in any danger, really, is she?
How much food and water was she left with and how easy is it to eat and drink while endlessly falling?
if it is needlessly malice or tormenting then yeah he should gain a warning, and if he keeps doing it he should fall or at lest need to atone
Well yea.. it isnt really paladinish and certainly a mark on his saintliness, but well generally my players are decent roleplayers just sometimes they like to have a bit of fun and go a little outside their stuffy RP.. possible that might have been the case ?
Aside from that it isn't a respectful way to treat a prisoner, I'd just subtly point out it is not very respectful way to treat a prisoner at this point, after a repeat I might hint at a slight wavering in his faith.
Good powers to act a bit quirky would be smite evil, detect evil and divine bond (a mount might rebel slightly, or makes the targeted weapon feel heavy in his hands (-2 attack) using detect evil might daze him for a round or make it harder to detect evil, make him concentrate for the full 3 rounds like the spell for instance, smite evil might not penetrate DR or ignore the charisma bonus to hit).
Alternatively you might have him sneeze when he is face to face with Sian again, hintin at his immunity to disease is failing.
Well yea.. it isnt really paladinish and certainly a mark on his saintliness, but well generally my players are decent roleplayers just sometimes they like to have a bit of fun and go a little outside their stuffy RP.. possible that might have been the case ?
Aside from that it isn't a respectful way to treat a prisoner, I'd just subtly point out it is not very respectful way to treat a prisoner at this point, after a repeat I might hint at a slight wavering in his faith.
Good powers to act a bit quirky would be smite evil, detect evil and divine bond (a mount might rebel slightly, or makes the targeted weapon feel heavy in his hands (-2 attack) using detect evil might daze him for a round or make it harder to detect evil, make him concentrate for the full 3 rounds like the spell for instance, smite evil might not penetrate DR or ignore the charisma bonus to hit).
Alternatively you might have him sneeze when he is face to face with Sian again, hintin at his immunity to disease is failing.
You may not want to be so subtle though. Sometimes a hammer is the right tool.
If she's 'endlessly falling', then she's hardly in any danger, really, is she?
Sounds about as gnarly as Superman putting General Zod in the Phantome Zone.
So it's all good.
You may not want to be so subtle though. Sometimes a hammer is the right tool.
Agreed, I tried the "little hints" years ago, and after about 10 had the paladin fall then the player whined endlessly about "having no warning"
Go bold and go very clear.
Okay...
The other night we had a blast running through the Asmodean Knot in the CoT AP.I'll try to avoid spoilers...
But after the party captured an adversary ** spoiler omitted ** They promised to let her go if she told them all she knew, or some such... Before that they had her tied her up securely. After that they dumped her in an endless falling place (you know what I mean if you've been there) so they could go back and retrieve her once they were done with the place. This they did twice, catching her the first time with an air elementals whirlwind...
But twice the paladin accepted this treatment of their captive, and he even dumped her in the hole as far as I recall...
I even stressed the point after they retrieved her the first time how she was suffering from the treatment...
And I think they are planning on letting her go, but they might still surprise me...
Now what would happen to a Paladin in your games doing a thing like this...? I might be really tempted at letting him loose his paladin-hood, but is that too harsh?
Any comments to help a fellow gamer is more than welcome... ;)
The exact terms of the release should have been bargained by the NPC. I used a paladin's righteousness against the group every chance I get. If I can create dissent between the pally and the group it might allow for me to get a chance to get away or have the group respect the pally's wishes to make sure I am let go at a certain time.
What type of torture, and to what extent. Were they making her stay there for their own safety? The motives should matter for this.
If she's 'endlessly falling', then she's hardly in any danger, really, is she?How much food and water was she left with and how easy is it to eat and drink while endlessly falling?
See, this here is the problem.
There is probably a disconnect between what the DM feels and the Player feels on how much suffering the NPC is going through.
People create their own picture of what's happening based on the same set of words.. so it's best to be clear.
One could imagine the endless falling as a constant vertigo, like a neverending fall of doom causing feelings of terror each time they approach "the end", even if they know it won't actually be the end. In this case, it's no better than torture.
Another imagining could be that it's simply an endless fall with no ground in sight, and nothing causing physical pain. After an initial stomach churning leap, you'd get used to it and be fine.
Similar to walking into that room of all mirrors at the science exhibit. Feelings of vertigo like crazy, until you realize it's perfectly safe and those feelings die down.
Perhaps the Paladin is thinking this is like the second interpretation.
So yeah.. I'd tread carefully with laying down the hammer. If the DM wants to play it as torture, you better be sure that this is explain explicitly... perhaps the NPC can say so "This is horrifying! I'm in constant gut-wrenching fear! Why are you torturing me like this!".
That should grab the attention of the Paladin. Then again, he might assume she's lying to try and get into an easier to escape scenario.
The best way would probably be to just handle it out of game: "Hey Chuck, I'm considering this torture by the way. She really is scared spitless. You'll want to tread carefully here."
This prevents any misunderstandings or imagery disconnects.
If she's 'endlessly falling', then she's hardly in any danger, really, is she?
It is also a completely unnecesary effort to make the prisoner uncomfortable, how convinced are they anyway that it is infact harmless ?
I myself am not at all convinced endless falling is harmless. Cold, lack of breath, anxiety and unforeseen circumstances in the case of this twisted experiment might cause significant harm.
That seems a bit off to me. I don't think on its own that is enough to make the Paladin lose their abilities...but it might also depend who the character's deity is. Depending on which deity it is, I would suggest the paladin should be an exemplar of that particular deity's dogma in addition to being LG. A Paladin of Abadar, for example, should be more Lawful than Paladins of other faiths, IMO.
The quote in question might be "He tells the truth, keeps his word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice."
That a paladin would approve or aid that kind of treatment of a prisoner seems a bit strange to me. Especially twice. I don't really see a Paladin giving their word and then not letting the person go. Saying one thing and then doing another (even if they do intend on letting the NPC go later is more the sort of wordplay I'd expect from a LN or even LE character. I think most paladins will abide by both the letter and spirit of their word/oath/vows. Not just the exact wording.
If she's 'endlessly falling', then she's hardly in any danger, really, is she?It is also a completely unnecesary effort to make the prisoner uncomfortable, how convinced are they anyway that it is infact harmless ?
I myself am not at all convinced endless falling is harmless. Cold, lack of breath, anxiety and unforeseen circumstances in the case of this twisted experiment might cause significant harm.
They might not have any rope to tie her up with, or they may think she can get out of it.
That seems a bit off to me. I don't think on its own that is enough to make the Paladin lose their abilities...but it might also depend who the character's deity is. Depending on which deity it is, I would suggest the paladin should be an exemplar of that particular deity's dogma in addition to being LG. A Paladin of Abadar, for example, should be more Lawful than Paladins of other faiths, IMO.
The quote in question might be "He tells the truth, keeps his word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice."
That a paladin would approve or aid that kind of treatment of a prisoner seems a bit strange to me. Especially twice. I don't really see a Paladin giving their word and then not letting the person go. Saying one thing and then doing another (even if they do intend on letting the NPC go later is more the sort of wordplay I'd expect from a LN or even LE character. I think most paladins will abide by both the letter and spirit of their word/oath/vows. Not just the exact wording.
I agree with all of it, I don't think it can hurt to drop some subtle hints that the paladins conduct is less than expected of the deity's chosen champions. A sneeze might be a good first time warning for relatively minor transgressions, after that a minor mechanical hindrance, sooner or later he will see a pattern I think.. a deity's job got harder since paladins do not need wisdom anymore I suppose >_<
They might not have any rope to tie her up with, or they may think she can get out of it.If she's 'endlessly falling', then she's hardly in any danger, really, is she?It is also a completely unnecesary effort to make the prisoner uncomfortable, how convinced are they anyway that it is infact harmless ?
I myself am not at all convinced endless falling is harmless. Cold, lack of breath, anxiety and unforeseen circumstances in the case of this twisted experiment might cause significant harm.
Or more likely this was more convenient and fun..
I'd say it's time to hand the paladin that note card that says, "Welcome to being a fighter with no bonus feats."
While I agree with you; in RL, it is better to give the player a second chance.
This is why I suggest the divine warning (again, use a "hammer" here).
At that point, if the paladin doesn't quickly change his/her ways; well their actions (as you have pointed out) have already justified the loss of their paladin powers.
It's fair to remember that paladins are not wimps. If he thinks it is fair to threat such a person like that, he will.
Aside from that, it seems like the person in question isn't in real danger, and she is not gonna stay like this forever, so, I wouldn't make her loose paladinhood.
"Justice" is the key point here, it may be just and fair to do just that.
Think about this, paladins can be just like the army or the police in some ways, they will sentence people to death, hard labor, prison for life or even worse things, depending on the crimes of said person.
Being a paladin means you must be good, it doesn't mean you must be nice.
Well, I'm clearly in the minority here, but given that the solution does no physical damage and neutralizes a potential threat in a non-lethal manner, I wouldn't penalize the paladin at all for a pretty reasonable "field" solution.
If he doesn't honor his/her word, then that's another story, of course.
Ninja'd by Xum
Well, I'm clearly in the minority here, but given that the solution does no physical damage and neutralizes a potential threat in a non-lethal manner, I wouldn't penalize the paladin at all for a pretty reasonable "field" solution.
If he doesn't honor his/her word, then that's another story, of course.
Ninja'd by Xum
I do enjoy when we agree :) It's hard to happen, but it's cool nevertheless. :)
Well, I'm clearly in the minority here, but given that the solution does no physical damage and neutralizes a potential threat in a non-lethal manner, I wouldn't penalize the paladin at all for a pretty reasonable "field" solution.
If he doesn't honor his/her word, then that's another story, of course.
Ninja'd by Xum
actually I am pretty usre putting a person in a skydive for a few hours of free fall is pretty detrimental to said person's health, at the very least you should consider there is a risk.. the prisoner is being a guinea pigged for kicks and even then catching her in an air elemental's whirlwind is pure torture which actually inflicts physical damage.
In any event it is the DM's call and in this specific case he made it apparent she suffers from the treatment... and then she is dumped back in.
I'll chime in and agree that the paladin has not broken his promise. Yet. At this point he is oath-bound to set this enemy free (IMO, even if he didn't say the words, his mere association with whichever PC promised to set her free puts the oath on the paladin to uphold that promise).
But he is not oath-bound to set her free immediately. Doing so would give her time to do all sorts of badness. Like sneaking up on them and attacking them while they're still exploring this area. Or running off to get help. Or telling the other bad guys (you know who I mean) that the PCs are in this place - I'm sure they wouldn't enjoy their reception when they finally find the thing they went in for, and then they step back out of this place and find the BBEG with 40 or 50 of his favorite hellknight troops waiting for them...
No, he is justified keeping her as his prisoner while he completes his quest. If that means putting her into a place from which she cannot escape, then retrieving her later, he is well-justified. She is an enemy. She is not to be trusted. He is on a very important quest for god and country. Her freedom can wait; it's for the greater good.
But he is oath-bound to free her when they leave.
You may not want to be so subtle though. Sometimes a hammer is the right tool.
Hammers are nice, bricks are even better.
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LG is not lawful stupid. Nowhere in the Paladin's code does it require a Paladin to make a prisoner comfortable. Of course torture is not allowed, but discomfort is fine. No physical pain is inflicted by a simulated fall (as a real fall always involves injury from landing). Psychological discomfort as a side effect of safely restraining a prisoner is perfectly in line with LG.
What i love is the logical disconnect many have when viewing paladins. its perfectly ok to cleave an evil-doers head in half during battle, but once prisoner they must be treated as my darling virgin niece. Part of a Paladin's job is punishing wrong doing. he promised to release the prisoner, but did not promise to avoid punishing them for their crime.
Essentially, a paladin is supposed to defend the innocent and smite evil. Being a prisoner doesn't make them 'not evil'. Needless cruelty would be innapropriate, but something that made the prisoner suffer in a non-critical way to pay for their crimes would be fine imo.
Well, I'm clearly in the minority here, but given that the solution does no physical damage and neutralizes a potential threat in a non-lethal manner, I wouldn't penalize the paladin at all for a pretty reasonable "field" solution.
If he doesn't honor his/her word, then that's another story, of course.
Ninja'd by Xum
The problem is not that she's in danger per se.
The problem is the Paladin is doing the following :
A) Putting her into at least a continuous scary situation (per DM)
B) Leaving her there helpless with no one to protect her.
C) Going off adventuring and possibly getting killed.
If someone comes along and decides to take potshots at the eternally falling prisoner for fun (kobolds? That'd be the B issue), or if he gets killed, then she may not ever get rescued and starve to death (C).
Basically, the paladin is playing VERY fast and loose with the safety of a prisoner he is honor bound to release safely and unharmed. That means he's playing fast and loose with his word of honor. Which means he's playing fast and loose with his god's reputation.
Just so you know, I wasn't suggesting Lawful Stupid. Merely that a Paladin is expected not only to act in the interests of Justice and their god/goddess, but also with compassion, mercy and honor as well. Showing an enemy mercy isn't stupid. It might be the wrong choice depending on the enemy, since they might come back after your party again, but its still the right thing to do.
That said, no character can be expected to be perfect, not even a paladin. Restraining the NPC in question (who I don't know, since I have not read the material) could be perfectly justified depending on the circumstance and what evil deeds the NPC has committed. Of hand, I don't know what this NPC has done or who they have harmed.
To me, that Paladin hasn't broken any vows yet...but if they've given their word of honor, they'll need to keep it in a "reasonable" fashion. Keeping this NPC there until they think he/she is not longer a threat to what they are doing could count as reasonable, depending on the circumstances. The longer someone stays in a 'bottomless pit' of that sort though, the more psychological damage its going to do. That kind of thing is more than just subjecting a prisoner to 'discomfort'. In the short run it'll be fine. In the long run you'll drive the NPC stark, raving mad. That is detrimental, IMO. And for anyone who thinks that kind of thing isn't mentally damaging, I'd suggest you look and see how long people can handle sensory deprivation. Its not as long as you'd think.
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Just so you know, I wasn't suggesting Lawful Stupid. Merely that a Paladin is expected not only to act in the interests of Justice and their god/goddess, but also with compassion, mercy and honor as well. Showing an enemy mercy isn't stupid. It might be the wrong choice depending on the enemy, since they might come back after your party again, but its still the right thing to do.
That said, no character can be expected to be perfect, not even a paladin. Restraining the NPC in question (who I don't know, since I have not read the material) could be perfectly justified depending on the circumstance and what evil deeds the NPC has committed. Of hand, I don't know what this NPC has done or who they have harmed.
To me, that Paladin hasn't broken any vows yet...but if they've given their word of honor, they'll need to keep it in a "reasonable" fashion. Keeping this NPC there until they think he/she is not longer a threat to what they are doing could count as reasonable, depending on the circumstances. The longer someone stays in a 'bottomless pit' of that sort though, the more psychological damage its going to do. That kind of thing is more than just subjecting a prisoner to 'discomfort'. In the short run it'll be fine. In the long run you'll drive the NPC stark, raving mad. That is detrimental, IMO. And for anyone who thinks that kind of thing isn't mentally damaging, I'd suggest you look and see how long people can handle sensory deprivation. Its not as long as you'd think.
I hear you here. But here's the question. How many times has a prisoner been taken (or left unguarded due to time constraints in a mission) and released in games by a paladin only to return and torment them again? A paladin knows they will keep their word, but they should also know a prisoner will lie under duress, especially if evil. I consider ignoring that fact to be the epitome of Lawful stupid.
Not finding a secure way to restrain a prisoner who does not deserve immediate release, and whose release could jeopardize the party's mission (and thus achievement of greater good) is not smart.
Now, the final point to consider, is if the party did release the prisoner, how many DM's honestly would not have them bite the paladin in the ass? From reading these boards, looking at published modules, and 20+ years of experience I'd say not too many. We as Dms need to consider the positions we put our paladins in and be fair.
EDITED for clarity
I agree being fair is a good point. DMs should try and be fair, but in my opinion that really would depend on the NPC/villain involved.
For one, I regularly have cowardly villains run away, I've known lots of DMs who would never have goblins retreat. A lot of people run their games differently is my point and a lot of what is "years of history" with gaming isn't always right.
I suppose to me, not acting 'Lawful Stupid' because my DM might use it against us, is metagaming. I play my characters and also expect my players to act in game as their characters would act. Deciding to do an action for reasons of avoiding DM wrath is bad form, IMO. I'm sure some people will disagree with me on this, and thats fine. Everyone plays their games to their likes, dislikes and preferences.
My preference is that characters act as they would act without thinking about the players or DMs track record on such things. I give very healthy XP and story awards for players that do so. That is my way of encouraging it, I don't punish my players just because they acted to the beliefs of their deity and ethics.
However, yes, these things will sometimes come back to bite you and the party later. In my opinion, that is one of the foibles of playing a Paladin. And yes, I've had lots of players make paladin PCs throughout the years. Just make it clear that you will play the NPCs to the same expectations as you hold the players. I won't have an NPC who is scared to death of the PCs come back just to have a villain show back up later. If the NPC wouldn't do it, it won't happen. So, YMMV.
LG is not lawful stupid. Nowhere in the Paladin's code does it require a Paladin to make a prisoner comfortable. Of course torture is not allowed, but discomfort is fine. No physical pain is inflicted by a simulated fall (as a real fall always involves injury from landing). Psychological discomfort as a side effect of safely restraining a prisoner is perfectly in line with LG.
What i love is the logical disconnect many have when viewing paladins. its perfectly ok to cleave an evil-doers head in half during battle, but once prisoner they must be treated as my darling virgin niece. Part of a Paladin's job is punishing wrong doing. he promised to release the prisoner, but did not promise to avoid punishing them for their crime.
Essentially, a paladin is supposed to defend the innocent and smite evil. Being a prisoner doesn't make them 'not evil'. Needless cruelty would be innapropriate, but something that made the prisoner suffer in a non-critical way to pay for their crimes would be fine imo.
Your reasoning holds true to short falls, jumping from a plane in your casual wear dress might very well be hazardous for your health, freefalling for hours at a time might very well leave you in very bad shape if not outright dead. I am not at all that much for punishing paladins unnecesarily, but this seems to border on torture more than anything.. and in this case it is something that the DM communicated to them, ofcourse that might have been because they stopped her fall by sucking her up in a whirlwind created by an air elemental.. which is plainly inflicting physical damage to a prisoner in his care.
Nowhere in the paladin's code does it state a prisoner has to be comfortable, but LG enforces a respect for life, when practically possible ofcourse.
Some collateral damage : Psychological discomfort as a side effect of safely restraining a prisoner is perfectly in line with LG.
- Well that is probably a side effect of the deluded image the american government is LG.
Twisting his promise : He promised to release the prisoner, but did not promise to avoid punishing them for their crime.
- something devil kind is very fond off, is it evil.. no, but it sure isn't good, it wouldnt warrant an alignment change but it isnt the high standard paladins are kept to either, there is in this case no reason he could not have been clear on his intentions.
- Essentially, a paladin is supposed to defend the innocent and smite evil. Being a prisoner doesn't make them 'not evil'.
Thus he should smite the prisoner, except he made a promise.. but well at least I can make her suffer a bit before I let her go MuhaHAHAhaha (selfrighteous saintly chuckling)
You all have some pretty good points, both for and against him loosing his Paladin mojo...
But again I described how disturbed she looked after the first time they let her fall. And she's bound and gagged, (so she wouldn't make so much noise and attract other things, they argued) I'm considering having her have an 'accident' during the fall, since it's not a place with vacuum, and therefore windresistance and such might make her fall unstable and being tied up she'd probably have a hard time steering.... I dunno, Is that too evil? To make him not keep his word that way and then hit him with the hammer...?
"I hear you here. But here's the question. How many times has a prisoner been taken (or left unguarded due to time constraints in a mission) and released in games by a paladin only to return and torment them again? A paladin knows they will keep their word, but they should also know a prisoner will lie under duress, especially if evil. I consider ignoring that fact to be the epitome of Lawful stupid.
Not finding a secure way to restrain a prisoner who does not deserve immediate release, and whose release could jeopardize the party's mission (and thus achievement of greater good) is not smart.
Now, the final point to consider, is if the party did release the prisoner, how many DM's honestly would not have them bite the paladin in the ass? From reading these boards, looking at published modules, and 20+ years of experience I'd say not too many. We as Dms need to consider the positions we put our paladins in and be fair.
EDITED for clarity"
The paladin then shouldnt have given his word so lightly perhaps, a major point in rp for a paladin is that being the saintly sucker is hard. He might very well realize it isn't the most practical thing to do all the time, but he has to hold himself to higher standards.
Personally I might or might not have it bite a paladin in the ass in a way, but rarely will it end up punishing the player for his RP.
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I suppose to me, not acting 'Lawful Stupid' because my DM might use it against us, is metagaming.
I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but wanted to reply to this. I wasn't suggesting that the Paladin react to knowledge of the Dm's likely actions, but knowledge of the prisoner's likely actions. your prisoner is evil, or chaotic, or neutral but working for bad guys. You are on a vital mission to improve the position of "goodness" in the world. A paladin should be able to look at this situation, and consider the likely response of their prisoner, not the behavior the paladin themselves would engage in. An evil prisoner would definitely lie. Even a LE prisoner would likely twist their words so that the end result would likely resemble a lie. If a paladin can't release a prisoner now, and can't exact summary justice (execute them) because of a promise made, then they would be LS (lawful stupid) not to take appropriate precautions to avoid the evil-doer's escape. Allowing them to escape by your own negligence would increase evil in the world. Seems pretty clear to me, yet many seem to hold Paladins to a ridiculously extreme code of conduct that most often works out to the bad guy's benefit. I've never known why, and it always irritates me.
You all have some pretty good points, both for and against him loosing his Paladin mojo...
But again I described how disturbed she looked after the first time they let her fall. And she's bound and gagged, (so she wouldn't make so much noise and attract other things, they argued) I'm considering having her have an 'accident' during the fall, since it's not a place with vacuum, and therefore windresistance and such might make her fall unstable and being tied up she'd probably have a hard time steering.... I dunno, Is that too evil? To make him not keep his word that way and then hit him with the hammer...?
I wouldnt go hammering right away, maybe discuss it briefly with the player and tell him what you expect from a paladin, constantly hammering on how to play a character isnt much fun for anyone in the end.
Killing the prisoner might be an option, not entirely unlikely.. being gagged it is likely she will exhaust herself in short time trying to breath, might lose conciousness and turn bluish and eventually die a simple non-spectacular death if you want to go that way.
I wasn't suggesting that the Paladin react to knowledge of the Dm's likely actions, but knowledge of the prisoner's likely actions.
Yeah, I know what you were saying, and I agree with it. Just to be clear, if my previous post wasn't: I'm not saying that acting that way because you believe the prisoner is lying is bad...only if the player were using past experiences as a player to determine their reaction.
I don't think you were advocating Metagaming...just saying that thinking about it in those terms while making your decision would be metagaming...a fine line, I know.
That aside...even an evil NPC might be telling the truth given the circumstances. So again, without knowing the entire story of the OPs situation, this whole talk comes around to the hypothetical. I think you and I have differing opinions on what would classify as "Lawful Stupid", Underling. To be honest, we're I playing a paladin, their reaction to this situation (at least as much as I know of it) would greatly depend on the Paladin's deity, faith and personality. I can see holding back the prisoner if the paladin is a gritty veteran of many battles with a somewhat jaded view of people...
But for the young, impressionable paladin with dreams of sainthood or some other faith-related ambition/goal...I could see them letting the NPC go without a second thought, because this character might want to always see the best in people...even the evil ones.
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LG is not lawful stupid. Nowhere in the Paladin's code does it require a Paladin to make a prisoner comfortable. Of course torture is not allowed, but discomfort is fine. No physical pain is inflicted by a simulated fall (as a real fall always involves injury from landing). Psychological discomfort as a side effect of safely restraining a prisoner is perfectly in line with LG.
What i love is the logical disconnect many have when viewing paladins. its perfectly ok to cleave an evil-doers head in half during battle, but once prisoner they must be treated as my darling virgin niece. Part of a Paladin's job is punishing wrong doing. he promised to release the prisoner, but did not promise to avoid punishing them for their crime.
Essentially, a paladin is supposed to defend the innocent and smite evil. Being a prisoner doesn't make them 'not evil'. Needless cruelty would be innapropriate, but something that made the prisoner suffer in a non-critical way to pay for their crimes would be fine imo.
Your reasoning holds true to short falls, jumping from a plane in your casual wear dress might very well be hazardous for your health, freefalling for hours at a time might very well leave you in very bad shape if not outright dead. I am not at all that much for punishing paladins unnecesarily, but this seems to border on torture more than anything.. and in this case it is something that the DM communicated to them, ofcourse that might have been because they stopped her fall by sucking her up in a whirlwind created by an air elemental.. which is plainly inflicting physical damage to a prisoner in his care.
Nowhere in the paladin's code does it state a prisoner has to be comfortable, but LG enforces a respect for life, when practically possible ofcourse.
Some collateral damage : Psychological discomfort as a side effect of safely restraining a prisoner is perfectly in line with LG.
- Well that is probably a side effect of the deluded image the american government is LG....
Wow you seem a little bitter here, huh? The US government comment is WAY unnecessary. I could snarkily reply that for every negative you could point out that the US has done world wide, there is a positive I could reply with. I'm talking about Paladins and trying to avoid personal (or national) aspersions. Lets both try that, ok?
At no time, anywhere did I say discomfort was 'perfectly in line with LG'. I suggested it was not optimal, but acceptable. In this described circumstance, it seems the Paladin is constrained to make the decision that will result in the most good.
Lets take your logic into a different position. We don't know what the prisoner did, do we? Does their crime affect the Paladin's decision in your eyes? It likely should, since justice is based off of an appropriate punishment for the crime.
Now imagine your prisoner is released (or escapes) since restraining them in the falling place was too cruel. They go out and commit another crime. That crime is now on the Paladin's hands, right? After all, the Paladin had apprehended the villain, and because of a moral quandry took the easy out and let them go. His conscience is clear- he was a nice guy. Except for that niggling voice in his head that tells him those 23 orphans would still be alive if he had ensured that the prisoner couldn't escape, even if they had to be exposed to some discomfort.
There is no such thing as a behavior that is always LG. A paladin must demonstrate discrimination and judgment in always pursuing their ideals. Thus, questions like the OPs are always circumstantial, and must be judged accordingly.
How long the prisoner has been falling there? The time of exposure to this at least unpleasant and at worst horrific experience. And the availability of water/food too.
Oh, this reminds me that preventing prisoner from using bathroom is considered part of psychological tortures. However silly it might appear at first thought it can cause some suffering if trying to hold and be very humiliating if don't (or cant anymore).
On the other hand serious discomfort can be part of punishment even according to Lawful Good character - if character plans to deliver the prisoner to some sort of justice and thinks to plea in the name of prisoner to consider her experience as a part of punishment and reduce further punishment accordingly, or if he judge and punish her herself with imprisonment accounted then it should be fair to not reduce his powers.
And if the Paladin only fault is underestimating her experiences during the imprisonment think about following option: whenever the character uses class powers describe him a moment of vertigo and experience of falling through the endless void, feeling of eternal loneliness, etc. As the imprisonment extends make the flashes longer and more intense, add halucination often associated with sensory deprivation or anything you can think bad about prisoner experience. You may also describe as the endless void slowly gnawing at the light and holines of the Paladin during those episodes while his powers diminish - less lay on hands dice, additional ues consumed when activated, weaker smite evil.
You all have some pretty good points, both for and against him loosing his Paladin mojo...
But again I described how disturbed she looked after the first time they let her fall. And she's bound and gagged, (so she wouldn't make so much noise and attract other things, they argued) I'm considering having her have an 'accident' during the fall, since it's not a place with vacuum, and therefore windresistance and such might make her fall unstable and being tied up she'd probably have a hard time steering.... I dunno, Is that too evil? To make him not keep his word that way and then hit him with the hammer...?
I wouldnt go hammering right away, maybe discuss it briefly with the player and tell him what you expect from a paladin, constantly hammering on how to play a character isnt much fun for anyone in the end.
Killing the prisoner might be an option, not entirely unlikely.. being gagged it is likely she will exhaust herself in short time trying to breath, might lose conciousness and turn bluish and eventually die a simple non-spectacular death if you want to go that way.
Also never said he should get his powers taken away. I think his god should indicate a minor concern with how the prisoner is being treated, with their safety. Give him a sign (something clear, but not something taking away his powers, like a symbol of his god appearing next time he throws her into the room that explodes and deafens him for 10 minutes).
Also, rather than hurt her, use realistic things. Have her sweaty, soiled (urine and feces) from not being able to go to the bathroom. Have her dehydrated and incoherent next time they go back. She's not getting food or water, she's unable to take care of basic needs, she should look the part. If that doesn't cause the Paladin's player to change, then have his god start removing powers.
EDIT: Partially Ninja'd. :) I do like the example of giving him vertigo when he uses his powers.
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I wasn't suggesting that the Paladin react to knowledge of the Dm's likely actions, but knowledge of the prisoner's likely actions.Yeah, I know what you were saying, and I agree with it. Just to be clear, if my previous post wasn't: I'm not saying that acting that way because you believe the prisoner is lying is bad...only if the player were using past experiences as a player to determine their reaction.
I don't think you were advocating Metagaming...just saying that thinking about it in those terms while making your decision would be metagaming...a fine line, I know.
That aside...even an evil NPC might be telling the truth given the circumstances. So again, without knowing the entire story of the OPs situation, this whole talk comes around to the hypothetical. I think you and I have differing opinions on what would classify as "Lawful Stupid", Underling. To be honest, we're I playing a paladin, their reaction to this situation (at least as much as I know of it) would greatly depend on the Paladin's deity, faith and personality. I can see holding back the prisoner if the paladin is a gritty veteran of many battles with a somewhat jaded view of people...
But for the young, impressionable paladin with dreams of sainthood or some other faith-related ambition/goal...I could see them letting the NPC go without a second thought, because this character might want to always see the best in people...even the evil ones.
all true. There are many ways to play a Paladin and stay within LG's tenets. the god and the character can both influence what qualifies as acceptable, as well as circumstance.
How long the prisoner has been falling there? The time of exposure to this at least unpleasant and at worst horrific experience. And the availability of water/food too.
Oh, this reminds me that preventing prisoner from using bathroom is considered part of psychological tortures. However silly it might appear at first thought it can cause some suffering if trying to hold and be very humiliating if don't (or cant anymore).
On the other hand serious discomfort can be part of punishment even according to Lawful Good character - if character plans to deliver the prisoner to some sort of justice and thinks to plea in the name of prisoner to consider her experience as a part of punishment and reduce further punishment accordingly, or if he judge and punish her herself with imprisonment accounted then it should be fair to not reduce his powers.
And if the Paladin only fault is underestimating her experiences during the imprisonment think about following option: whenever the character uses class powers describe him a moment of vertigo and experience of falling through the endless void, feeling of eternal loneliness, etc. As the imprisonment extends make the flashes longer and more intense, add halucination often associated with sensory deprivation or anything you can think bad about prisoner experience. You may also describe as the endless void slowly gnawing at the light and holines of the Paladin during those episodes while his powers diminish - less lay on hands dice, additional ues consumed when activated, weaker smite evil.
Dont forget the irresistabke urge to pee LOL
"Wow you seem a little bitter here, huh? The US government comment is WAY unnecessary. I could snarkily reply that for every negative you could point out that the US has done world wide, there is a positive I could reply with. I'm talking about Paladins and trying to avoid personal (or national) aspersions. Lets both try that, ok? "
no not bitter, I wouldnt even consider the US government immoral, but a solid LN alignment rather.
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"Wow you seem a little bitter here, huh? The US government comment is WAY unnecessary. I could snarkily reply that for every negative you could point out that the US has done world wide, there is a positive I could reply with. I'm talking about Paladins and trying to avoid personal (or national) aspersions. Lets both try that, ok? "
no not bitter, I wouldnt even consider the US government immoral, but a solid LN alignment rather.
fair enough. I was primarily reacting to the meaning and context of deluded. It suggested a lot of things, not many of which were pleasant. If the US is LN, does that give us +2 Econ and +2 Stability by Kingmaker rules? :)
fair enough. I was primarily reacting to the meaning and context of deluded. It suggested a lot of things, not many of which were pleasant. If the US is LN, does that give us +2 Econ and +2 Stability by Kingmaker rules? :)"Wow you seem a little bitter here, huh? The US government comment is WAY unnecessary. I could snarkily reply that for every negative you could point out that the US has done world wide, there is a positive I could reply with. I'm talking about Paladins and trying to avoid personal (or national) aspersions. Lets both try that, ok? "
no not bitter, I wouldnt even consider the US government immoral, but a solid LN alignment rather.
lol lets hope so, economical stability sounds pretty damn good right now :p
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I think this is one where you should take the player aside, and say 'your character should be being concerned about this'. It's possible that they haven't thought through all the ramifications of this. It's always worth talking to the player about potential problems like this, so as to prevent acrimony later on if you feel the need to fall them.
Seems that every time I ask for advice in a moral-ish direction people begin to discuss politics... hehe, go figure!
Oh! did I mention that they stripped her almost naked? just to make sure...
Giving him a sense of vertigo every time he uses his powers seem like an excellent idea ;) "I smite that evil bad guy!" Me: "M'kay.. you feel strange and all your dex-based skills suck and reflex saves are down a notch, and you get a strange urge to hurl... But smite away... "
Well, the whole idea is that his divine patron gives him hints about the unpleasentness of the prisoner's experience - after some time it should start to get enough bad that he understands that his action (or inaction) borders torturing helpless (albeit not innocent) victim and should think of more Lawful Good methods of resolving the situation.
However for it to work you have to describe it in the way that let him quickly link own experiences with that eternal falling thing suffered by the prisoner.
I do not know that adventure and thus don't know the specific qualities of that eternal fall nor the vileness factor of the villain nor what actually Paladin knows about her crimes and what his divine patron thinks of her crimes thus hardly can I say how quickly divine hints should occur and how intense should they be.
I'd say it's time to hand the paladin that note card that says, "Welcome to being a fighter with no bonus feats."While I agree with you; in RL, it is better to give the player a second chance.
This is why I suggest the divine warning (again, use a "hammer" here).
At that point, if the paladin doesn't quickly change his/her ways; well their actions (as you have pointed out) have already justified the loss of their paladin powers.
+1 for Lord Fyre.
Though, I'm not knocking Morgen's sentiment. Get their attention very quickly in terms of how you, the GM, take the paladin role seriously.
But a lot of bad GMs teach players bad habits. Offer a teachable moment that doesn't nuke the character concept on the spot.
You don't have to do any more hand-holding after the first stern warning.