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So after some recent talk about the Improvised Weapon feats (Catch Off-Guard, Throw Anything and Improvised Weapon Mastery), it's got me thinking about different uses of improvised weaponry.
Specifically, I'm wondering about odd-ball uses of weapons. Such as throwing a longsword, or beating someone with a bow.
Some questions:
Can weapons be used in atypical ways count as improvised weapons?
If yes, then does ammunition get used up still, or since improvised weapons aren't destroyed, can it be used over and over?
Also, if weapons can be used in improvised ways, do their magical enhancements still work in those uses?
A longsword is fairly big, sharp, etc. What if you wanted to knock someone over the head with the pommel, doing bludgeoning damage. Should this be considered similar to the sap or light mace (since the bludgeoning end is so small), or the club or warhammer (since the longsword itself is so big)?
If you have weapon focus (longbow), and/or weapon training (bows), do the apply when using the bow as an improvised club? How about if it's masterwork?
Do you still threaten normally with an improvised weapon? As in.. can you threaten around you with a ranged weapon cuz you can swing it like a bat if anyone gets close? Sure, you take a -4 penalty, but it's still an option and you don't need to drop your main weapon to do this.
Plus, you have a lot of magical enhancements on that thing that could hurt (a +1 orc bane bow being swung at an approaching orc that provokes for some reason).
Can you take Weapon Focus/Specialization (improvised weapon)? Would it be a bad idea as a GM to allow a fighter to have weapon training in "improvised melee and thrown weapons"?
No one knows? Or cares, I suppose.
Personally, I like the Legolas scene, and feel it should be something that can be replicated in the game.
Nice thing is that it seems like you'd be able to do all this without the feats, just with penalties (and lower damage). Then again, being high level and fighting CR 1 stock Orcs is when you can get off the wall, because your stats let you afford it.
Legolas had favored enemy orc, and a +1 Orc bane arrow. Even with the -4 penalty, that could be a one-shot melee stab.
If you have something on hand.. would you ever be considered without a weapon to threaten in combat, as long as you are willing to take the non-proficiency penalty?
I'm wondering about odd-ball uses of weapons. Such as throwing a longsword, or beating someone with a bow. Can weapons be used in atypical ways count as improvised weapons? Also, if weapons can be used in improvised ways, do their magical enhancements still work in those uses?
A longsword is fairly big, sharp, etc. What if you wanted to knock someone over the head with the pommel, doing bludgeoning damage. Should this be considered similar to the sap or light mace (since the bludgeoning end is so small), or the club or warhammer (since the longsword itself is so big)?
If you have weapon focus (longbow), and/or weapon training (bows), do the apply when using the bow as an improvised club? How about if it's masterwork?
Do you still threaten normally with an improvised weapon? Can you take Weapon Focus/Specialization (improvised weapon)? Would it be a bad idea as a GM to allow a fighter to have weapon training in "improvised melee and thrown weapons"?
This is outside the bound of standard rules, I think, but it seems a lot like the homebrew my gaming group uses for sundered or broken weapons; instead of getting a -2 on attack and damage rolls, it turns into the next realistically logical weapon, but with a -4 'improvised weapon' penalty.
For example, a sundered (and rendered 'broken') longsword becomes an improvised dagger. A broken dagger is treated as a fist-spike, and has the same damage and stats as a spiked gauntlet. Polearms and spears become quarterstaves, very large swords become small axes, etc.
We haven't ironed out hard'n'fast rules, but our GM usual describes the break and we go from there.
In terms of your question specifically, I would impose a -4 penalty on the attack roll, because they are improvised use of a weapon, and so would incur an improvised weapon penalty. Magical enhancements to damage or attack (such as a +3) would not work, because it wouldn't be used as intended. If it were a +3 icyburst, then I think the icy-burstiness would still occur, as it would be an all-over effect upon the weapon.
Hitting someone with a longsword pommel: I think this would be a club in terms of use. A sap is much much lighter.
Slapping someone with a bow: shortbow would be a club, longbow would be a quarterstaff, just because of how long and heavy it would be.
Weapon Focuses would only work if you are using the weapon normally. The person trained with a bow, to use it as a bow; they didn't train to use a bow as a club. Same with a longsword; they trained to slice, not to sling.
I think a Weapon Focus into improvised weapons would be hilarious and very fun to play. I don't see how this would break even a light portion of the game, considering how dependent PC's are on enhanced weapons by the 5th level.
Legolas had favored enemy orc, and a +1 Orc-bane arrow. Even with the -4 penalty, that could be a one-shot melee stab.
If you have something on hand.. would you ever be considered without a weapon to threaten in combat, as long as you are willing to take the non-proficiency penalty?
I think you could have a single use among the battle where you would not threaten with your improvised weapon, and then after the use you would, based on other people observing that use.
The arrow should be treated as a Small-sized +1 Orc-bane dagger, at a -4 improvised weapon penalty.
Bumpity-bump for more opinions, please.
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Your legolas arrow scene is already covered under the arrow description in the equipment section.
"An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier x2)."
As for magical bonuses to damage, no, I wouldn't allow magical bonuses on the weapon to be applied when using it as an improvised weapon. The whole point is that you're not using it the way it's designed to be used, so the bonuses won't trigger. Also, the improvised
You don't threaten with ranged weapons. I'd have to say that even as an improvised weapon, the fact it can still be used normally means that restriction stays in place. It's still a ranged weapon, even if you're using it incorrectly as a club.
I wouldn't allow a fighter to take weapon focus or specialization in improvised weapons.
It would have to be very specific, such as weapon focus: Improvised longbow as a club.
And it would only function when using the bow as a club, and it wouldn't stack with plain old weapon focus: club.
When using normal weapons as improvised weapons, I think it entirely depends on the specifics. Weapon category should go to simple, probably down to the unarmed damage table. Slapping with a longsword just doesn't hurt that much. Using the pommel would take you to the light mace, since it shares a weight with the longsword.
For bludgeoning weapons, look for similar weight. For piercing weapons, look at whether the source item is 2-handed, 1-handed, or light, and use the appropriate damage. For slashing weapons, stick with the sickle stats :P
An orc has 6 hp and an ac of 13. The arrow would deal 1d4+str+any favored enemies. Give legolas a 14 strength and even a 1st lvl favored enemy and he's got a 50% chance of killing them. Make him a 5th lvl ranger, and if he hits with his improvised arrow, they die. :p
A weapon that is magical is always a magical weapon -- even if you don't use it right.
Otherwise being non-proficient(aka unable to use it right) would mean that you also don't get the magic bonuses (since you can't use it right since you don't know how to).
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Well, the poster requested opinions :P
In my opinion, using a longsword as a bludgeoning device negates the magical bonuses. Is the hilt flaming? Is the hilt magically improved to swing more accurately and magically enhanced to bring more force to bear?
It doesn't make sense to me in this context, which I why I wouldn't run it that way. Definitely my opinion and not raw, but as requested, thus as granted :p
Being non-proficient is in my mind different than intentionally using a weapon in a way it's not designed to be used.
For example, the farmer trying to use the magical longsword is still going to strike with the pointy end, though he might not have the training to get the most mileage out of the blade. He'll still do better than the guy attacking with the pommel and ignoring the long sharp part on the other side of the hilt :D
Actually, I never mentioned opinions, and I'd actually like to know if any actual ruling applied to any of this (like the arrow bit that I missed).
Not that I don't want opinion though! Opinions help me decide as a DM what I want to actually run the rule in my game, so it's always welcome of course.
I could see some magical enhancements not making sense, such as those that are described in a specific way (I think the brilliant energy specifies what part is changed to energy, etc).
A flaming longsword whose blade is on fire, probably shouldn't do fire damage when knocking someone with the pommel (light mace), but probably should if you use the flat of the blade (which might be closer to a sap or whip, and thus nonlethal on the physical damage).
It would probably make sense to take it on a case by case basis for this sort of thing.
While normally it probably doesn't come up often, if I decide to make a PC or NPC that deals in unarmed/improvised combat, it could come up quite a bit.
Well, the poster requested opinions :P
In my opinion, using a longsword as a bludgeoning device negates the magical bonuses. Is the hilt flaming? Is the hilt magically improved to swing more accurately and magically enhanced to bring more force to bear?
Actually hilt-bashing is considered a "proper" use of the weapon, as is using the flat of the blade. Not so much with a rapier but with a long sword such maneuvers are standard tactics (especially if they get within your reach with the long sword).
I share the OP concern about "legality" since this situation came up in a Pathfinder Society Scenario I played in. Another player with the Throw Anything feat was tossing around greatswords. The DM didn't seem to have a problem with it, but I don't know if this would hold up in every case.
If you look at the wording of improvised weapon, it says "objects not crafted to be weapons." Yes, a greatsword is not meant for throwing, but to be nitpicky, it is a weapon.
I'm inclined to go with the whole -4 penalty when using a weapon in a fashion it isn't designed for (improvised).
As far as the question of a flaming longsword still getting the added flame damage if used in a "blunt" fashion... yes. Just use the flat of the blade. :oP
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Actually, hilt-bashing was only considered proper tactics for a very small number of swords, which were built with *temple crackers*, a small metal nub at the end of the grip.
And in game terms, you can count those as double weapons. If you want the enhancement bonus to apply to both, you can pay for both :p
To be fair, the alternative attack of the pommel is more like using a Halberd for piercing or slashing... two different parts of the same weapon to be used for one type of damage or the other.
You can enchant a halberd as a single weapon, and the piercing or the slashing both use that enhancement.
Double weapons kind of need to be two-handed to function as a double weapon. They allow for two weapon fighting, which is why the separate enhancing is there, ultimately.
I wouldn't allow someone to use a longsword by itself with two weapon fighting, for example...
Striking with the flat of the blade is striking for nonlethal (which carries it's own penalties) not using it as an improvised weapon.
I agree that using the pommel of the longsword should be an improvised weapon, and should probably deal 1d4 lethal damage.
A longbow would be an Improvised quarter staff, a short bow would be a club.
Only weapons wielded in two hands can be wielded as double weapons (in response to magicdealers comment).
Finally, I would say most magical bonuses would still work (remember the 3.5 picture of the balor with his whip and sword?).
P.S. As a DM, I would allow Weapon Focus (Improvised weapons) and Weapon Spec. (improvised weapons) so long as you had Catch off Guard or Throw Anything and Improvised Weapon mastery, just because of the number of feats you are already devoting to it.
Just noting that there's an older discussion on this issue here:
USING AN ACTUAL WEAPON AS AN IMPROVISED WEAPON