So I can think of no good example of an evil character that does not kill, either directly or indirectly. The non-killing types just don't seem evil enough to earn the alignment.How about a character that wants all life to suffer in eternal painful immortality and believes death is an undeserved release from torment?
I struggled with something similar to this before. The issue was whether it is evil to torture someone just for fun. My rules for alignment were that to be evil you had to be willing to kill an apparently non-evil creature for fun. I decided that torture for fun implied a willingness to put the life of a victim at risk of death just for fun. However, if the torturer could use magic to guarantee death would not occur, it would be a hole in my alignment rules. The difficulty is roleplaying a character who would never, ever put someone's life at risk, but enjoys kidnapping* and torture. It was so hard to imagine a good roleplayer who would make that their character concept that I decided a little hole in the logic of my alignment rule would be fine.
Your example is kind of like that. Although the character wants everyone to suffer forever, I just don't think it wouldn't bother her much when rounding up her victims if she has to put one of them down for trying to get away, the serum didn't work, they fought back, or whatever. It is hard to imagine a good roleplayer choosing that concept without also deciding that they don't really care if one of the victims dies at their hands (frustration at not being able to cause more pain, perhaps, but not guilt that she caused the death). Trying to avoid getting her hands dirty is more of an act than genuine care that her actions would not increase the probability of causing death when she is resisted, and all because she just wanted to torture people.
Makes me think of a real-life poisoner, too. There was a woman who tried to poison people at her office. She was putting some stuff in their coffee for quite some time, and was eventually caught. She admitted she was trying to kill them, but the stuff she was putting in their coffee would never have killed them (she wasn't very bright). So she could not be convicted of attempted murder. Just like you can't be convicted of attempted murder for wishing someone dead or using voodoo to kill them, she couldn't be convicted because the tool she chose to do the murder was so incompetently chosen. Your example reminds me of this because the character seems to want everyone to suffer in hell, which requires death to get to, but wants to keep them alive. She's just not very good at picking the weapon to do the deed. :)
* I mention kidnapping because I also thought about that in the context of alignment where killing innocents for fun is a requirement to be evil. I decided that imprisonment during which a person ages is kind of like killing a portion of them (since lifespan is limited). You would still have to do it for fun to be evil. Your example kind of side-steps this, too, though because you use magic to ensure they are immortal. So you aren't really stealing a portion of their life for your own enjoyment.
So I can think of no good example of an evil character that does not kill, either directly or indirectly. The non-killing types just don't seem evil enough to earn the alignment.How about a character that wants all life to suffer in eternal painful immortality and believes death is an undeserved release from torment?
It seems a little mean to declare misanthropy in and of itself to be evil.
Hmmm. Now I think I see what Seeker was stumbling over. She was enraptured by CE, as if it were a beautiful work of art, and encouraged people to become that thing. However, she herself was not really that thing because she refused to kill the innocent, and didn't really seem to want to harm them either. It's a little confusing because she seems to want to send them to the Abyss, but really she just worships the CE form. Kind of like a serial killer groupie who wants to marry a death row inmate, but would never murder anyone themselves. It sounds like she doesn't really even want to do any harm to anyone. She just believes everyone should be free, and you can't be completely free until you are CE.
I notice, however, that Seeker suggests making her more *evil* rather than more *chaotic* for her to earn a CE alignment. That suggests that Seeker should be arguing she is CN, rather than NE. I hate to waffle, but I can see the CN now. I normally define alignment without reference to outer planar issues, and assume that outer planar issues trump. This character is interesting though, because it introduces the question can you idealize an alignment that is not your own? Maybe so.
Yep, that very logic is why I said that I could see her as borderline CN with evil tendencies as well. She would probably earn her "evil street cred" for all the murder, rape, and mayhem that she would stir up, though. And if not, then the way she would treat an Archon or other good-aligned Lawful Outsider that was pushy in its enforcement of law would be pretty horrifying, so that might do it. She is also cognisant of and not opposed to her sister's experiments that involved capturing people, releasing their ids, and transforming them into morlock-like Chaotic Evil creatures with insatiable appetites for everything.
Anyways, I know she's a borderline case that reasonable GMs could say was not Chaotic Evil, which is why I brought her up--for me, worshiping evil and working to promote it in as many people as possible is already enough to be evil, even if all that mayhem is only second degree (and oh so much harder to pin on dear sweet Ally because of it. She's innocent, and you can believe her--her name means Truth).
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Heh I would say that the discussion has not properly characterized chaos. A chaotic character apparently can never do anything lawful ever without dropping to neutral. So if we are agreed on this then the thing is that the only way that a chaotic character can be consistent is if they happen to be by random chance. So the only way to play a chaotic evil character is to act randomly at all times since pursuing ones own interests would be lawful if that is the only thing that one does. However the most important thing to remember is that the random acting can not be something that the character has decided to do in character since that would be lawful.
In the end it is difficult to play a chaotic evil character since one must be lucky enough to have randomly done enough evil acts to be evil.
I don't think I can agree with that.
Nine distinct alignments define the possible combinations of the lawful-chaotic axis with the good-evil axis. Each description below depicts a typical character of that alignment. Remember that individuals vary from this norm, and that a given character may act more or less in accord with his alignment from day to day. Use these descriptions as guidelines, not as scripts.
So yes, a Chaotic character can do Lawful acts on occasion, the same as any other alignment.
Also, as I have stated before, a Chaotic character may act randomly. Not must act randomly.
I *think* he's just carrying out the obviously ludicrous descriptors of the "chaotic" part of the alignment in order to make a point - that applying equally ludicrous descriptors for ONLY evil on the CE topic is nearly *as* absurd, if not as easily/frequently encountered.
I disagree with putting forth any of his statements as "truth" but to take them as a point made against ruling in absolutes for a single alignment type where others have plenty of leeway is actually a good point to my mind anyway.
:shrugs:
I can't pidgeon-hole anyone/anything THAT absolutely in good conscience. Even CE character WILL experience the full range of human emotion - even if they express it in different ways. Arbitrarily saying "they can't do it 'cuz they're EVIL" doesn't jive with a *single* thing I've read or experienced anywhere.
I watched Watchmen for the third time last night. It struck me that the Comedian is another way to play CE. He got along pretty well with the rest of the costumed heroes, though he did beat up and attempt to rape one of them and he is referred to as having made a lot of enemies, even among his friends. He killed a woman pregnant with his child and blamed Dr. Manhattan for not stopping him. All in all, a pretty good movie to test your alignment system on.
I notice, however, that Seeker suggests making her more *evil* rather than more *chaotic* for her to earn a CE alignment. That suggests that Seeker should be arguing she is CN, rather than NE. I hate to waffle, but I can see the CN now. I normally define alignment without reference to outer planar issues, and assume that outer planar issues trump. This character is interesting though, because it introduces the question can you idealize an alignment that is not your own? Maybe so.
I thought I had covered why she was not chaotic. I could have divided things up however.
She needs to be more flexible, she too rigid in how she works or when and when she will not kill or harm folks. I don't think she is chaotic as she never acts it. She didn't go out of her way to "help" folks be free, she didn't have impulsive actions or "plans" she didn't seem to have any impulse at all.
She wasn't care free or adaptive in her planning at all, nor was she a "free spirit" or anything. She preached do what you will, but didn't really live by it.
So to me she needed to be more impulsive and spur of the moment in her 'advice" and setting up people to be corrupted, she would have taken every chance she had to corrupt someone in some way no matter who small or petty it was, any kind of misunderstanding or mistake that would hurt people the most is what she would try to make happen any chance she got.
She was far to restrained and rigid for any of the Chaotic AL's. Which is why I put her as NE.
I stumbled across this earlier and thought it might help...and I'm curious to see what people's views on the additional material is.
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I don't think alignment applies to how you treat your friends-they're your friends, of course you like them, otherwise you wouldn't be friends. I think it applies to how you treat people you don't know. It's easy to be good when your friends or family are watching you, but what you do when no one is looking is what defines you as a person.
I stumbled across this earlier and thought it might help...and I'm curious to see what people's views on the additional material is.
When I described CE exactly like that, most everyone got their panties in a twist.
This list is quite old and has many shortcomings.
The problem is twofold:
1. CE <-> NE
Many people take CE because it is iconic and then actually play NE because it is much more playable. These people can't usually describe the difference between CE and NE.
2. Chaotic as misnomer
Chaotic isn't necessarily pure randomnes as in "everything can happen with a chaotic character" as such this would be stupid and unplayable. WotC realised as such and changed the Chaotic Alignment in D&D 3e from how it was presented earlier. In such chaotic is a misnomer and should be replaced by something like "opposed to be given orders", maybe "unruly" would be better.
A Chaotic character will oppose laws. The best way to provoke a NO frmo such a char would be to say "it is the law, you must do so". As such the no may even be prompted if following the law might be beneficial.
With that interpration a CN char isn't one who is always totally unpredictable but one who opposes outside orders and as such follows his own laws. So he still can be quite predictable if his internal "law-system" is rather fixed.
What does that means for a CE character?
Well surely not that he is a loving and caring sort. He only does what he wants to do, and given that he is evil, will probably no good for anyone. He might be one who cares for a being or even a group of beings, but has no outside obligation to do so and may change his whims over time. I still so not that such a char can be part of a group for more than a few sessions.
Personally I think you have the same issue playing any alignment like CE, LG, LE, CG. People tend to play to the extreme with them.
Take the two parts of CE.
Chaotic you are just need to lack order or organization. You could go to the extreme with Chaotic but you don't have to. You could be an absentminded wizard who is so completely unorganized that they mix up their scrolls and spend more time digging for them or just end up grabbing on and hoping it works. This just an example of Chaotic. There are tons of ways to play Chaotic.
Evil is morally objectionable. You might steal from someone not because it's against the law but because you have no moral issue with taking something you want from another. That's as evil as you need to be.
So now combine the two and you have a chaotic evil character who can play fine in a group.
Now if you go extremes and everything you do has to be evil and chaotic and you end up with Chaotic Evil Stupid and that never works.
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So I can think of no good example of an evil character that does not kill, either directly or indirectly. The non-killing types just don't seem evil enough to earn the alignment.How about a character that wants all life to suffer in eternal painful immortality and believes death is an undeserved release from torment?I struggled with something similar to this before. The issue was whether it is evil to torture someone just for fun. My rules for alignment were that to be evil you had to be willing to kill an apparently non-evil creature for fun. I decided that torture for fun implied a willingness to put the life of a victim at risk of death just for fun. However, if the torturer could use magic to guarantee death would not occur, it would be a hole in my alignment rules. The difficulty is roleplaying a character who would never, ever put someone's life at risk, but enjoys kidnapping* and torture. It was so hard to imagine a good roleplayer who would make that their character concept that I decided a little hole in the logic of my alignment rule would be fine.
Your example is kind of like that.
I am at a loss as to how to take this.
Step 1 to being "neutral": Kidnap Person with intent to torture that person, just because you enjoy torture. Lets call this person a cleric of Zon-Kuthon. (LE god of Pain, Shadow, and Suffering, for those who don't recall.)
Step 2: Secure person (non-fatally) into torture spot, so as to prevent their ever leaving. Include death as a means of leaving.
Step 3: Torture them until the heavens ring with their screams and their mind is destroyed in the process.
Nothing in there allows for the death of the victim. They are cared for, fed, watered, kept clean, almost like a life-support machine to which they are hooked, involuntarily.
Any alignment system which allows for the practitioner of the above scenario to remain "Un-Evil" is one which I cannot work with.
1: Wanton disregard for the victim's well being, beyond basic "living and breathing"
2: Active desire to cause pain for no other reason than to cause pain.
3: Acceptance of the responsibility of caring for this person, up to and including resuscitation, to further pursue goal 2.
Please correct me if I misunderstood your statements.
Doubletruck avatar
I'll play devil's advocate here (or demon's advocate, as the case may be).
I submit that you can only play chaotic evil in a solo adventure. By that I mean that you have no companions who adventure with you. Slaves, servants, dominated minions, sure, just not companions who are there of their own free will.
Why?
Good characters won't tolerate a CE character. Sure, Order of the Stick does, but really, that's a comic strip - it's there to make us laugh. In a supposedly pseudo-real world that has any verisimilitude at all, good characters won't keep a CE character around.
Neither will neutral characters. While they may be more willing to look the other way and not ask too many questions, it won't take them long to hang the term "psychopath" on the CE companion regardless of the intent of that CE character towards them. And once they do, they will conclude that their lives and their liberty are in constant jeopardy by an untrustworthy psychopath, and they will seek a more reliable companion.
Which only leaves other evil characters. And there is no way they will trust each other. They know their own twisted evil minds, and they know what's going through that CE guy's mind. They will expect the worst because they themselves would also cause the worst. No trust = dead adventuring group, so if they have a shred of intelligence, they will all ditch each other at their first opportunity (or just kill them and take their stuff).
Which leaves nobody.
No sane adventurer would put their neck on the line, time after time, trusting their very survival to a CE character.
So, what about deceiving the others? OK, you got me there. If you can truly deceive them and keep your companions thinking that you're not CE, then they will travel with you. Until they figure it out, find you out, or you give it away yourself. Then all the above applies. And if you never give it away, never act CE, never ever ever do CE stuff, then (arguably) you're not really CE, so your companions are not traveling with a CE character after all - but that's a different argument entirely...
Wouldn't that same logic applied to NPCs mean that there could never be a tribe of CE orcs, or any kind of CE henchman to a BBEG; or in fact a CE BBEG with any kind of hierarchy beneath him that he didn't personally hold together by regularly cowing them?
When I described CE exactly like that, most everyone got their panties in a twist.
Well, I think the key difference to me, and maybe I was misreading what you said before, is that they only betray friends when it's convenient/profitable to do so, but if they're relatively smart they'd know that it wouldn't really be profitable to betray their adventuring friends until they've decided to stop adventuring (or gotten a better offer from someone, but that seems uncommon).
When I described CE exactly like that, most everyone got their panties in a twist.Well, I think the key difference to me, and maybe I was misreading what you said before, is that they only betray friends when it's convenient/profitable to do so,
Being exactly what I said.
If your evil and chaotic, lie! Lie like hell!
No I'm totally lawful good my sword slipped three times into his face.[trip alot]
I'm deaf in one ear, did he surrender? [WHAT?]
That was you mom, I thought she was a shape shifting assassin sent to kill you! [Hire an assassin]
Chaotic evil can work it's just a lot of work. [hiding bodies can be a chore] But can be a rewarding experience untill the party figures you out then...well...good luck.
Chaotic evil runs on fear and pain. Poison your party before they lynch you, that way they feel bad about killing you.[untill the poison wears off.]
chaotic evil is probably the rarest alignment represented in the real world. Most die for obvious reasons and thats the biggest problem, they can't work well with others, they don't have the ability to subsume thier own needs to acomplish a greater goal liike NE or LE.
chaotic evil is probably the rarest alignment represented in the real world. Most die for obvious reasons and thats the biggest problem, they can't work well with others, they don't have the ability to subsume thier own needs to acomplish a greater goal liike NE or LE.
They can work well with others, just often it's more fun not to.
Another question to this is why haven't the Devils won the Blood War? It's still 50/50 last time i checked.
Kudos to Mr Fishy who presented the best explanation of how a CE char could be incorporated into a non evil party so far.
I am astonished by the fact that some people here have problems indentifiing torture as evil...
Come on! We pretty much can agree upon whats evil and whats not in 99% of all cases, that isn't the problem.
The problem is what is chaos - and in extension what makes a CE guy differnt from a NE or a CN guy.
Many see chaos as "lack of order" and here I disagree, a Chaotic person can be very orderly, BUT he does follow only his own order and not any external order - which he in fact opposes.
Many fruitless discussion arises between the two extremes, where one half is convince CE must be randomly acting homicidal maniac and the other says even maniacs can be nice.
BUT, I think we all can agree that a CE person is the one that you are the most hesitant to get into a group with.
But he does and has gone out of his way to protect and save them. He's not particularly CE. Maybe True Neutral to "Neutral Jerkface."
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I've done it before. I look at it the same as lawful good being lawful stupid if done too much. As a chaotic evil person you can still rob from whoever you feel like, get right into a battle and slice up enemies, go right ahead and capture some enemies and sell them into slavery. You don't have to run into holy sites and sodomize priest before decapitating them like a freak. Just be selfish and don't care about laws. You can still work with others, help good guys if it benefits you (after all you're chaotic, you don't need a reason), and just keep a low profile around authorities~
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The group that I run with are pretty much all Lawful Evil, with the exception of one of the Wizards and rogue... both of which are Chaotic Evil.
Wizard-Undead Vampire LE Me.
Wizard Human CE
Fighter Human LE
Cleric-Undead Vampire LE
Rogue Tiefling CE
Ranger Elf CE
Goal of our party: Continue to get rich seeking Necromantic artifacts, other magic items, to build a small glorious Empire and to have the weak serve us. In short.. LOL
We dont attack and kill needlessly, as we are not phsyco.. but have a set of laws if you will that we adhere to... such as for the feeding of the Vamps.. no feeding in towns etc.
As for the Wizard... well he just roleplays a very selfish concieted, and brutal wizard. Trying to cause the most harmful and painful damage when possible... he loves to see his enemies scream in pain.
The Rogue is pretty much out for himslef, although he obeys our laws for the most part.. (no bringing attention to us while in towns etc) However we let him steal and pillage when he can... he performs our scouting with the Ranger as required.
I've done it before. I look at it the same as lawful good being lawful stupid if done too much. As a chaotic evil person you can still rob from whoever you feel like, get right into a battle and slice up enemies, go right ahead and capture some enemies and sell them into slavery. You don't have to run into holy sites and sodomize priest before decapitating them like a freak.
The only people even putting forward such a suggestion are those people trying to deride the CE alignment and those suggesting that seeing CE as "sociopath" is wrong - like you. It's a fallacy.
I don't know about strict but at the base of the AL if you peel back the layers is a core behavior , they can have different goals, diffident likes and dislikes and different personality but at the root of it all is a person that does what his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do.Someone who is vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable.
A CE person isn't your friend, he isn't your buddy he is a user. All theses "kinder, gentler" CE versions are not CE unless you change what CE at it's core. And what it is by the book. which is a force of pure destruction of life,beauty and order. It is ruthless and it is brutal. It is uncaring of who it hurts or how it hurts them.
Aliments are not just two parts, they combine to become something unlike each part of the AL alone. If you try and look at each part alone you lose something from the joining of the two halves.
No ideal where your getting that, I said nothing that the CE Al entry does not say or imply. Aliments all have a basic form, the base of actions that makes you that AL. And yes Each AL have a hard wired base that makes up the core of that AL. The entry in the core book tells you that base nicely.
Aliments are a way to brake down reactions and base make up of someones personality.It is not the whole of that person but is the base on which that person's whole persona and moral compass is built.
You don't become vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable because your Chaotic evil. Your chaotic evil because your vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable.
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No ideal where your getting that, I said nothing that the CE Al entry does not say or imply. Aliments all have a basic form, the base of actions that makes you that AL. And yes Each AL have a hard wired base that makes up the core of that AL. The entry in the core book tells you that base nicely.
Aliments are a way to brake down reactions and base make up of someones personality.It is not the whole of that person but is the base on which that person's whole persona and moral compass is built.
You don't become vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable because your Chaotic evil. Your chaotic evil because your vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable.
Oh-kay, whatever you say man. You are so obviously right, which is why James Jacobs, Jason Buhlman, Erik Mona etc. have posted on this thread to back you up...
Oh-kay, whatever you say man. You are so obviously right, which is why James Jacobs, Jason Buhlman, Erik Mona etc. have posted on this thread to back you up...
Actually I'll call foul on that one, I might not agree with seeker, but JJ, JB and EM generally don't bother posting too much in these sorts of threads, especially with Gencon just around the corner, so their lack of comment isn't a huge deal in any direction.
Eh I don't need backed up,read the CE entry in the book.Or the whole Aliment entry's Each and every one of the nine Alignment have a base core value. Something that makes them that Alignment.
All LG people tale the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. They are not all robots, they have different persona's but that is why they are LG because they are like that. The fact that they tell the truth, help those in need and speak out against injustice pegs them as LG, no matter if they are a street whore or a nobleman.
You are that Alignment when you act the way that Alignment covers and represents. At the base CE is vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable.
And if you are not these things you simply are not CE.
Same difference, either way it seems chaotic evil is a mass of copies of the same character
Incorrect. Core values are not the same as copies. Your saying everyone of the same faith are just copies or people of the same race or sex because they have base components that are alike. All woman are female{image that} so they must be just alike right?
Two people can have the same base values yet be nothing alike. All AL's have things that make them that AL. If you do not have that base structure then your not that AL.
Let me put it like this . Alignment is a role playing tool. Your Character is not an Alignment because you picked it. He is that Alignment because his views and values match that Alignment's views and Values.
No I am viewing them how the book presents them. Alignments are base values. Your LG person does not have to tell the truth all the time but they would try to do so. If he started no caring about telling the truth and just trying to do the best he could , then he would slip toward NG as his core values have changed.
Your CE pc might try not to be vicious and arbitrarily violent and two things will happen, he'll fail or he'll change AL as he is working to overcome his base values and instincts
It is what makes them CE.
But apparently one of the core values of chaos is all acting the same since as I said you set absolute requirements on alignment.
Chaos alone no, Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility also recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility
However you can't be simply Chaotic and the Alignment system combines two parts to make something neither is alone. And Chaotic evil is vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable.
Now notice the Unpredictable, he might be friendly with you then cut you down out of anger or malice, you just never know what they will do which is why they are Unpredictable. That alone with being vicious and arbitrarily violent are the defining values and markers of a CE person.
Dude - he's clearly NOT going to change his mind. Let him have his carbon-copy sociopaths that act primarily out of madness and move on with your life.
Seriously ... the OP asked *how* can CE be played well in a party.
For how many pages have people been trying to convince this yahoo it's *possible* to play out the game this way?
Who cares for his thoughts?? Help the OP with some ideas, and, frankly, ignore anything irrelevant to that (including insistence that it's NOT playable as clearly, this view violates the premise of the thread in the first place).
To wit: I say, "not a nice guy, who doesn't play by the rules" is a good starting point for *how* to approach the CE business. Avoid the sociopath "must be played this way" nonsense and look to humanize the character rather than demonize him.
Play him up cowardly somehow - spineless maybe?
Figure out who his friends are ... what's he willing to do for them? What is he not? Why does he have them?
By NO means does this make him an easy person to be around, or have around - but that's part of the challenge in the first place, no?
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Same difference, either way it seems chaotic evil is a mass of copies of the same character
Incorrect. Core values are not the same as copies. Your saying everyone of the same faith are just copies or people of the same race or sex because they have base components that are alike. All woman are female{image that} so they must be just alike right?
Two people can have the same base values yet be nothing alike. All AL's have things that make them that AL. If you do not have that base structure then your not that AL.
Let me put it like this . Alignment is a role playing tool. Your Character is not an Alignment because you picked it. He is that Alignment because his views and values match that Alignment's views and Values.
What if my views and values are not consistent with ANY of the 9 aligments, not even CN or N?
Stuff like this is why I sometimes ponder a third axis (although I don't really think it's necessary): Rational vs emotional.
An RLG character is likely to consider the deeper ethical implications of a good and lawful act before acting. An ELG character serves good and law for the feeling of righteousness and justice and may not ponder too deeply, acting swiftly.
An ECE character is your typical nutcase, doing evil and causing horror for the fun of it without a great deal of thought put into why or how. An RCE is a schemer. One that is and able to make plans yet provokes chaos and destruction. Characters such as Kefka and the Joker fall into the latter, I think.
Stuff like this is why I sometimes ponder a third axis (although I don't really think it's necessary): Rational vs emotional.
Heh, I don't even want to think about the arguments over a three axis alignment system :)