My RP group and I have been playing Council of Thieves, and last week we found out that we will be adding a Kingmaker campaign to our gaming schedule, so that we can alternate GMs. We have read the Kingmaker players' guide and begun tossing build ideas around via email. Most of us have settled on something pretty firmly, but the last I heard from my friend, he sounded a little stuck. He has a vision; he's just not sure what class he should pick in order to realize it. For my own curiosity as much as for his edification (just being honest, C!), I thought I'd ask the boards for advice on his behalf.
Ftr, our group is looking a little lopsided. It's pretty hilarious, actually. In Council of Thieves, we ended up with buffers and debuffers and support casters out the wazoo, with almost nobody interested in doing any *hitting.* Probably because our group members want to make new builds that contrast with their CoT characters, we are now finding ourselves in the opposite situation. It's not dire, but it is a little unbalanced. So far, we have:
-A relatively fragile Transmuter with a very high Intelligence, quite good Dexterity, dumped Strength, and no significant penalties or bonuses to Charisma or Wisdom. The Wizard is played by an experienced player aiming for Loremaster. He'll get pretty decent numbers of skills/level, but he's going to put most of them into knowledges.
-A well-rounded Ranger with 18 STR, no dump stats and modest bonuses to DEX, CON, INT, and WIS. The Ranger is going to emphasize ranged combat but be prepared to do some melee, as well. He has committed to putting ranks in Disable Device, because we do not have a Rogue at this time.
-A Barbarian with excellent STR, DEX and CON, but dumped everything else. This isn't an optimized build, but rather the result of my friend's RP concept. He wants to play half of a Dumb Barbarian/Wise Druid pair. I am the Druid. We haven't defined our bg yet, but we are going to be family members.
- A quite Wise, no-animal-companion (sob!) Weather Domain Druid, built primarily for battlefield control casting, not for hack and slash melee. They're not required by my class, but I gave myself decently high INT and CHA in addition to the high WIS, because we need skills and the campaign setting seems like it's going to call for Charisma. (Which none of us have, LOL). This has meant my STR is dumped, my CON is average, and my DEX is not as high of a bonus as I'd like. But hopefully several beefy fighting guys and some animal summons will be enough to keep me away from the action. Eep! Also, I am currently the only party member with Cure or Heal spells on her spell list.
Probably optimizers can find plenty to quibble with on our list, but most of us are new to RPing, and we're all of the mindset that we let each other play what we really want to play and go from there. At least we're becoming more mindful of the need to talk about things like what skills and stats everybody has. (Hey, guys, remember that time when we realized that *nobody* had Disable Device?)
Now for my friend: he reports that he would like to play a Gnome, obsessed with power in all its forms. In his mind, says my friend, this Gnome wants to be a fighter but his Small size and Gnome stats aren't especially well-suited to the purpose. My friend doesn't want to make a Small fighter if it will hold the group back, however. I've been trying to figure out what class he could play that would a) fulfill his vision of a small Napolean, perpetually grasping for power, and b) possibly shore up some of the party's weaknesses.
We don't obviously need another good hitter, but we could *really* use a wheeler and dealer with a high CHA and some of the more civilized skills. (My CHA is only 14, and so far that is the best in the entire group). If my friend were to play a caster, not a fighter, though, he could in theory focus on using his magic to buff himself up for battle, then go to town. A CHA-based caster would plug the group's yawning personality hole and benefit from that high CHA score at the same time. He'll need a better BAB and hit dice than a Sorcerer, however, and a Paladin would be too moral, with casting benefits too delayed.
So I have been thinking (perhaps counter-intuitively, as to flavor): Bard?
With a high Charisma and a mix of buff and mind-control spells, this Gnome can be powerful and grasping, while serving the group's interests just as long as he benefits from them. He can affably ingratiate himself to the group members in power, moving ever closer to the throne. He can also make himself a somewhat better hitter in order to play out his combat fantasy. (Disadvantage: Enlarge Person and Bull's Strength won't be on his spell list, which both seem like natural choices for this character. I guess he could acquire the cooperation of the Transmuter for those, or max UMD?)
The performance aspect of Bard isn't an obvious fit for my friend's character, but maybe he could pick a really unpredictable style of Perform (he is a Gnome, after all; Gnomes are weird), or maybe he could have a bg with classical performance training, which he is willing to use to his advantage but not-so-secretly hates.
We have 25-point buy with which to create our characters. I was thinking something like STR 14 (16, -2 Gnome, 10 points) DEX 14 (5 points) CON 14 (12, +2 Gnome, 2 points) INT 12 (2 points, wish this were higher) WIS 7 (-4 points) CHA 18 (16, +2 Gnome, 10 points)
So, questions: What about this won't work? (I'm a total no0b). It's not optimized, but is it playable? What other class options are there for this Gnome? Bard wouldn't be the easiest route to Eldritch Knight, but how doable would that be for my friend? Would it be worth it? How else would you suggest synching the power hungry gnome with the rest of our Kingmaker group?
Stuff like that. Very interested in what everyone has to say!
*Forgot to say, early indications are that the Charisma-only feature for Ruler skill-checks will likely be house-ruled away. Will probably be Charisma or Wisdom, perhaps Charisma, Wisdom or Intelligence.
With his criteria, I'd say go bard, but I think a fighter/rogue would work well with the rest of the party.
Oh, yeah. Other thing I forgot to say: this guy plays the Rogue in our other campaign, which is the only reason we're not nudging him that way here, LOL. I'm not sure he'd mind being a multi-classed Rogue here, too, but we - uh - made the Paladin choose a new class, so it might make us hypocrites. Hee hee.
Also Cha based, Summoner
Crappity crap, another thing I forgot to say: No APG classes allowed. Otherwise I'd probably be an Oracle. Good idea, though. A Summoner or an Alchemist would be awesome for the group.
Bard, Perform: Oratory, splash of fighter, then step into ElKn at level 8 (bard 7/fighter 1). If he wants to be serious in melee, he's going to working uphill with the Str penalty, but the Con bonus will help and if he takes the fighter level early (possibly even at 1st leve) he can get a greatsword or similar and do fairly well with it even so. Rolled scores, or point buy?
Bard, Perform: Oratory, splash of fighter, then step into ElKn at level 8 (bard 7/fighter 1). If he wants to be serious in melee, he's going to working uphill with the Str penalty, but the Con bonus will help and if he takes the fighter level early (possibly even at 1st leve) he can get a greatsword or similar and do fairly well with it even so. Rolled scores, or point buy?
25 point buy. I came up with that array myself, and I have no experience with fighters - or bards, for that matter - so feel free to propose an alternative! I've just been playing around.
Just to clarify in case it's needed, according to this array he won't have a STR penalty, he'll just have to buy a high STR and not get to use it all (because he'll lose 2 for being a Gnome). But perhaps you are referring to the built-in Gnome penalty that results in an only medium-ish STR? I'm probably not using all the right terms, because everything I know about RPG jargon I've picked up by listening in around here!
Paladin deals good damage AND is rather social. Kingmaker needs a king, right?
Paladin deals good damage AND is rather social. Kingmaker needs a king, right?
We do need a King! But I don't think the power hungry Gnome wants to be lawful good.
Just to clarify in case it's needed, according to this array he won't have a STR penalty, he'll just have to buy a high STR and not get to use it all (because he'll lose 2 for being a Gnome). But perhaps you are referring to the built-in Gnome penalty that results in an only medium-ish STR? I'm probably not using all the right terms, because everything I know about RPG jargon I've picked up by listening in around here!
I meant the racial penalty, not your array. (I missed that you said it was point buy, sorry!) And Str 14 is roughly where I would expect someone in his position to be, but you could definitely go higher if you wanted. A bard doesn't really need Cha 18; Cha 16 is plenty, and you could probably shuffle those points around somewhere else. I'd probably go for (final stats here) Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 7*, Cha 16. The odd scores give some options for advancement at 4th and 8th levels.
If he starts as a fighter, I'd recommend beginning with Power Attack. If he begins as a bard, he can start with a longsword (used two-handed) and trade up when he does take his fighter level (probably wouldn't wait much past 3rd level) and go for Arcane Strike. Future feats should probably be martial in nature (likely choices include Weapon Focus, Toughness, Improved Initiative, and others depending on the fighting style he wants), for concept reasons; if he plans to use some spells for dominating people, Spell Focus (enchantment) is an option, if a risky one. On the other hand, if he wants self-buffs, Combat Casting can be very helpful at low levels (though it gets less so as the levels go up).
*I wouldn't normally suggest starting with a Wisdom anywhere near this low, but it really seems to fit the character you've described...
This guy could be a magician. Perform (Magic Tricks). It will be funny and interesting all the same time.
FYI, the reason I suggested Perform: Oratory is that it works really well in my mind for "giving the kinds of orders people listen to." Well, that and having Sense Motive based off of Charisma instead of Wisdom would really, really help this guy out.
Just to clarify in case it's needed, according to this array he won't have a STR penalty, he'll just have to buy a high STR and not get to use it all (because he'll lose 2 for being a Gnome). But perhaps you are referring to the built-in Gnome penalty that results in an only medium-ish STR? I'm probably not using all the right terms, because everything I know about RPG jargon I've picked up by listening in around here!I meant the racial penalty, not your array. (I missed that you said it was point buy, sorry!) And Str 14 is roughly where I would expect someone in his position to be, but you could definitely go higher if you wanted. A bard doesn't really need Cha 18; Cha 16 is plenty, and you could probably shuffle those points around somewhere else. I'd probably go for (final stats here) Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 7*, Cha 16. The odd scores give some options for advancement at 4th and 8th levels.
If he starts as a fighter, I'd recommend beginning with Power Attack. If he begins as a bard, he can start with a longsword (used two-handed) and trade up when he does take his fighter level (probably wouldn't wait much past 3rd level) and go for Arcane Strike. Future feats should probably be martial in nature (likely choices include Weapon Focus, Toughness, Improved Initiative, and others depending on the fighting style he wants), for concept reasons; if he plans to use some spells for dominating people, Spell Focus (enchantment) is an option, if a risky one. On the other hand, if he wants self-buffs, Combat Casting can be very helpful at low levels (though it gets less so as the levels go up).
*I wouldn't normally suggest starting with a Wisdom anywhere near this low, but it really seems to fit the character you've described...
This is really good detail, especially as to the stats and combat feats. I am terrible at combat feats!
This guy could be a magician. Perform (Magic Tricks). It will be funny and interesting all the same time.
That *would* be funny! And I think we could use someone with Sleight of Hand, too.
FYI, the reason I suggested Perform: Oratory is that it works really well in my mind for "giving the kinds of orders people listen to." Well, that and having Sense Motive based off of Charisma instead of Wisdom would really, really help this guy out.
Like, 'Perform: Drill Sergeant'! That would be hilarious and potentially awesome!
"Stabra, stabra, Cabdabra
I want to reach out and grab ya
Stabra, stabra , Cabdabra
Stabracabdabra"
paladin 2, sorcerer 4, DD 3, EK to end. A charisma based fighter that augments with spells...quite a bit of spells :) . I am currently away from my books so I´m unsure if paladin 2/sorcerer 4 is enough for DD but I remember it being so.
She said the concept wasn't paladiny enough to go that route.
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How about a monk? Yeah you suffer from a slightly smaller unarmed strike die but you get the extra +hit and AC. You can't get strength too high but that isn't that big of a deal, a +3 to damage at low levels is still nothing to snuff at.
Lawful means respect of tradition and order so you can play pretty much him how you want to, seeing as how you are in control of the local laws and culture :D Plus what is better than an ageless king who reigns with an iron fist for order?
This is really good detail, especially as to the stats and combat feats. I am terrible at combat feats!
I would generally say that any Small character is too penalized to make combat maneuvers a good idea, so (despite his Int 13) Improved Trip/Disarm, etc., are probably not worth it. If he wants to make a mobile fighter, Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack might be worth it, particularly in combination with expeditious retreat; Spring Attack also makes Wind Stance (if/when he picks up some more Dex) a decent plan. Combat Reflexes always makes me happy, and also opens up Stand Still as a possible option, which could work well for the "pintsize Napolean" if the player is decent with tactics.
I would not even bother with EK and go straight DD.
Fighter 2 Sorc 3 into Dragon Disciple. Its not the best arcane caster, but your party already has one. He will get a lot of fun abilities and will be a decent front line character.
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Bard is right / fine. If he must play a gnome, I'd personally recommend a Paladin in your scenario... You have buffers, and gnome chargers are excellent damage (and work in dungeons).
Str: 15 (13 points)
Int: 7 (gain 4)
Wis: 7 (gain 4)
Dex: 10
Con: 18 (10 pts)
Chr: 18 (10 pts)
Skills: Ride, and with his "favored class" Diplomacy.
Focus on spirited charge ride-by type feats, and he and his Riding Dog animal companion (with training help from Druid) will output massive damage, while his high con and saves will make him feel invincible. The smaller animal makes it much easier to charge indoors.
If he must be a gnome bard, focus on middle weapons is far preferable...in fact, since bard AC sucks this is always preferable. Oratory is the best perform skill..
How about a monk? Yeah you suffer from a slightly smaller unarmed strike die but you get the extra +hit and AC. You can't get strength too high but that isn't that big of a deal, a +3 to damage at low levels is still nothing to snuff at.
Monks are already MAD as it is. Multiclassing a monk with a sorcerer loses his only dump stat.
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How about a monk? Yeah you suffer from a slightly smaller unarmed strike die but you get the extra +hit and AC. You can't get strength too high but that isn't that big of a deal, a +3 to damage at low levels is still nothing to snuff at.Monks are already MAD as it is. Multiclassing a monk with a sorcerer loses his only dump stat.
No, he still has int. But with 25 point buy, you have to worry a bit less about dump stats.
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paladin 2, sorcerer 4, DD 3, EK to end. A charisma based fighter that augments with spells...quite a bit of spells :) . I am currently away from my books so I´m unsure if paladin 2/sorcerer 4 is enough for DD but I remember it being so.She said the concept wasn't paladiny enough to go that route.
Okay fine, then sub out paladin 2 for fighter 2. You get less out of the charisma...but you do get 2 feats so still not bad.
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I think the real power with any true power broker is that they get others to fight their battles for them or bluff/intimidate their way to god-hood. Buffing your allies and debuffing your enemies goes alot further than being the BSF. Sorcerer definately has the role-play feel you're looking for depending on the bloodline. I suggest infernal or undead although destined would be the most appropriate from a fluff perspective. The bloodline powers, while not uber-great, fit for a PC destined for glory. For combat, using summon spells (with augment) and animate dead, you can create short-term armies to get the job done. And it doesn't really cost you anything. Metamagic rods (extend, quicken) would be your best friend. Keep the barbarian close by as your body guard. Massive hit points are not really necessary, but you can still look pretty good with toughness and diehard (with a decent Con)if that matters to you.