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So... what the title says. I've encountered this scenario more than once before, but I've never quite known how to handle it.
Do you retain it's benefits? If a creature enters your scent radius, are you aware of it? It is possible (but difficult) to make Perception checks while sleeping.
It seems to me that scent never turns off, which is odd, because my cat can sneak up on my dog while it's sleeping; and I can sneak up on the cat while it's asleep.
This seems like a "corner case", but it comes up a lot in my games given that most (or at least many) parties will have some kind of animal companion, special mount, familiar, or some other source of scent - and I do like to spring encounters on any given PC's watch during camp. Keeps the players from handwaving "we rest and regain spells and hp" too casually.
I am interested in the RAW and RAI, but not particularly in houserules. How do you read this scenario? What do you think?
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I am interested in the RAW and RAI, but not particularly in houserules. How do you read this scenario? What do you think?
When a creature is asleep, they are not actively using their senses, meaning that something has to make a noise, shake them, or otherwise do SOMETHING that significantly triggers their sense. When someone is attempting to make stealth checks against a sleeping opponent it works just like any other stealth check only opposed to different senses that the player may/may not be prepared for.
They have to make a stealth check. If the person/thing sneaking up on them is smart enough to recognize that the creature has scent then they can do what they can to mask their scent or stay downwind of the thing.
The modifier for perception for being asleep is +10 to the DC. Meaning that whatever that player rolled for stealth (assuming he masked his scent) is increased by 10. Then this triggers an opposed perception at all the given modifiers.
Say the sleeping creature has a +13 to perception. They are given a roll. Lands on 7. They have a total perception of 20 to detect whatever stimulus set that check off.
Player uses stealth at +7, and rolls a 4. Add 10 to this because the creature is sleeping and you have a total of 21.
Sneaky creature beats the sleepy creature and gets by unnoticed. The reverse would occur if the player did not prepare himself specifically against the scent ability, as the 11 from the stealth check got nullified and only the +10 would remain.
But for instance say the player DOESN'T prepare himself for the event that the creature has scent and tries to stealth. This for whatever reason, they don't realize it has this great sense of smell or whatever, he failed to cover his smell. This would mean that his stealth check does a grand total of squat for these specific senses.
I don't know what would constitute an odorous stimulus that would wake something up, or how close/far away you would have to be, but the closest thing we have available to us from RAW is that you need a perception result of 10 to hear someone walking nearby. As scent allows them to effectively use smell as a tracking device then I would assume that a DC 10 would be appropriate to SMELL a creature nearby. (I.E. Inside it's radius) You add to the dc +1/10 feet they are away from as well.
As far as how "strong" any given... player smells... that much is up to you. How often does the that person bathe? Do they use cologne? Have they been in battle recently? All these things you would have to figure out on the fly.
I... don't know what else to say in terms of this, I hope this helped answer some questions, or at least get you on the right track.
The brain is a very funny thing, that scientists are only just beginning to understand. The senses aren't really turned off when you sleep, it is just that your brain has entered a mode where it is not consciously acknowledging all of the input from your senses. Part of your brain is still monitoring them, however, and will frequently act to awake you if certain poorly understood triggers are met. How deeply someone is asleep and how much it takes to awake them varies pretty widely from individual to individual and also depends on the stage of sleep someone is in. One thing the brain, developed over years of evolution, is pretty good at even unconsciously, is detecting danger. Thus people often wake from loud noises, or from softer ones that vary from the norm of what they are used to "hearing" while asleep. There are people I know who can sleep through the noise of a train going by outside their window because it goes by every night, but will awake instantly if someone says their name or if a board creaks in the room. I think smell works in much the same way, although the human sense of smell is nowhee near as developed as our sight and hearing. There are plenty of examples of people awaking from the smell of smoke, for example. I would give anybody a chance to notice very strong or unusual smells and awaken, and give bonuses to any creature with a highly developed sense of smell.
The brain is a very funny thing, that scientists are only just beginning to understand. The senses aren't really turned off when you sleep, it is just that your brain has entered a mode where it is not consciously acknowledging all of the input from your senses. Part of your brain is still monitoring them, however, and will frequently act to awake you if certain poorly understood triggers are met. How deeply someone is asleep and how much it takes to awake them varies pretty widely from individual to individual and also depends on the stage of sleep someone is in. One thing the brain, developed over years of evolution, is pretty good at even unconsciously, is detecting danger. Thus people often wake from loud noises, or from softer ones that vary from the norm of what they are used to "hearing" while asleep. There are people I know who can sleep through the noise of a train going by outside their window because it goes by every night, but will awake instantly if someone says their name or if a board creaks in the room. I think smell works in much the same way, although the human sense of smell is nowhee near as developed as our sight and hearing. There are plenty of examples of people awaking from the smell of smoke, for example. I would give anybody a chance to notice very strong or unusual smells and awaken, and give bonuses to any creature with a highly developed sense of smell.
Yeah, I'd say that what that amounts to is a massive penalty to the perception roll. So they still roll perception, but at -10 for being asleep or something.
I just assume that all sleeping creatures "Take 0" on their Perception checks unless there is a reason for them not to. This is quick and easy and still allows those with high Perception checks to still be able to detect others. For strong scents, I might add +2 to the Perception check and for weak scents I might apply a -2 to the Perception check.
I just assume that all sleeping creatures "Take 0" on their Perception checks unless there is a reason for them not to. This is quick and easy and still allows those with high Perception checks to still be able to detect others. For strong scents, I might add +2 to the Perception check and for weak scents I might apply a -2 to the Perception check.
+1
I call this "passive" perception in my games. It just shows how alert someone is without trying. It saves on rolling sometimes which speeds things along.
The -10 while sleeping is a fine abstraction. The brain is still alert and it leaves it open for a light sleeper type feat.
Wow...that simple?
There is another thread with almost 100 posts on if someone can use Evasion while unconscious...
I am surprised none of those rules lawyers haven't showed up to say something about how the rules don't say Scent doesn't functions when you are sleeping, etc, etc.
Bravo to reason winning out quickly. :)
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Thing is, there is no check necessary to use Scent, and no roll that opposes it, so there's no "taking 10".
The same can be said of seeing somebody standing right in front of you in day light (or otherwise if you have lowlight/darkvision) You don't need to roll perception to notice the obvious. To creatures with the scent ability, smells within 30 feet ARE obvious to them. I would assume sleeping would function in the same way on scent that it does on hearing, giving you a -10.
The only hardship comes from the fact that perception does not have a specific table indicating how weak/strong certain smells are to notice. This is where you have to be creative and up your DM license and wing it.
Quick and dirty table
Base scent within range---------------------------------------------+0
Every day the passed without bathing-------------------------------+5
Every creature of tiny or greater size slain in past day----------------+2
Differs in creature type---------------------------------------------+2
Each size category above medium-----------------------------------+2
Presence of cooked food per item------------------------------------+2
etc...
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Thing is, there is no check necessary to use Scent, and no roll that opposes it, so there's no "taking 10".The same can be said of seeing somebody standing right in front of you in day light (or otherwise if you have lowlight/darkvision) You don't need to roll perception to notice the obvious. To creatures with the scent ability, smells within 30 feet ARE obvious to them. I would assume sleeping would function in the same way on scent that it does on hearing, giving you a -10.
A -10 to what, is the question. Perception has nothing to do with Scent, and there is no such thing as a Scent check, or a check opposed by Scent. Scent functions on a true-or-false basis.
A -10 to what, is the question. Perception has nothing to do with Scent, and there is no such thing as a Scent check, or a check opposed by Scent. Scent functions on a true-or-false basis.Thing is, there is no check necessary to use Scent, and no roll that opposes it, so there's no "taking 10".The same can be said of seeing somebody standing right in front of you in day light (or otherwise if you have lowlight/darkvision) You don't need to roll perception to notice the obvious. To creatures with the scent ability, smells within 30 feet ARE obvious to them. I would assume sleeping would function in the same way on scent that it does on hearing, giving you a -10.
We're discussing a house rule that would make sense for a sleeping creature to use its scent ability to detect creatures. So we are suggesting that the creature would use Perception with some modifiers. There is no reason why a sleeping creature with the scent ability should be able to detect creatures 100% of the time while sleeping. I have been able to walk up to a sleeping dog (not my dog so it's not familiar with me) and surprise it. Dogs have excellent hearing and sense of smell yet they can be sneaked up on. We want to replicate this in the game.
A -10 to what, is the question. Perception has nothing to do with Scent, and there is no such thing as a Scent check, or a check opposed by Scent. Scent functions on a true-or-false basis.
You should consider reading the text for the Perception skill, again.
Perception (Wis)
Your senses allow you to notice fine details and alert you to
danger. Perception covers all five senses, including sight,
hearing, touch, taste, and smell.
Creative Director
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Scent is treated like any other sense when you sleep—it still works, but something has to be VERY noticeable in order to wake you up.
The Perception skill doesn't just cover vision and hearing—it coves scent as well. If something strong scented approaches a sleeping creature with scent, it should get a Perception check to notice. What that DC should be should vary on the scent, of course, and then that DC should get a +10 bonus because the creature is asleep. A creature WITHOUT scent probably wouldn't really get a check at all unless the approaching scent was so undeniably horrific that it actually has game effects (such as a troglodyte's stink, or a stinking cloud).
There are plenty of examples of people awaking from the smell of smoke, for example. I would give anybody a chance to notice very strong or unusual smells and awaken, and give bonuses to any creature with a highly developed sense of smell.
I think there is an order in which the senses leave awareness and come back into awareness.
I believe that smell/taste is (for humans) the very first sense to leave awareness, and the very last sense to come back.
Hearing is exactly the opposite, the last sense to leave awareness and the first sense to come back to awareness.
Thus the modern Smoke Detector; it maps an important function of our weakest sleep-sense into our strongest sleep-sense, for safety's sake.
