Just had a look at the artificer on the SRD.
have searched through the forums so I've worked out most of what I wanted to know however.
Am I right in assuming that each spell on the weird science object is treated separately i.e. separate DC.
and that there is no way to increase this DC above the basic
10 + Spell Level + related stat (I assume INT in this case ? )
Since feat that increase DC are specific to spellcasters or creatures with spell like abilities
I also assume this is true for the spell penetration feats since your not actually casting spells.
Seems a bit like the Mystic Theurge problem, lotsa spells but they have a low chance of working offensivley.
but like the MT defensively you can buff like crazy which feels a little cheeze as well.
Lastly I also assume that you can't make weird science weapons or armor. e.g. putting shocking grasp on a sword so it fires off when you hit
On a side note simple errata I would have added would have been limit of 1 level of each spell on any given device, so at most you can have 4 effects firing off at the same time.
That aside I could see myself playing a multi classed artificer with fighter, no arcane spell failure when using items, plus the jack of all trades is kinda nice for the skill gimped fighter, could be fun esp if its a gnome fighter :)
Perhaps in its current form it would make a better Prestige class, get to 4th level faster but have far fewer multiples of spells each level
I take it no one has realy play'd around much with this class ?
Aren't almost all the "spells"/formulae on the Alchemist list self-buff-type spells? Why would you want to up the DC of spells that have a save line of "Save: Negates (harmless)"?
Because he said artificer not alchemist.
Two different classes.
Now to answer the question:
An artificer has access to both arcane and divine spell lists, but only up to 4th level. Any number of spells can be combined into a single device. Spell statistics (casting times, etc.) remain unchanged, although no components are required and the artificer is considered the “caster” for the purposes of CL.
Now spell DC is a spell statistic, and as such it would be figured as if it would be for the class that can cast that spell:
Namely if it was a cleric spell the DC would be based off of the character's Wisdom modifier, and if it was a wizard spell it would be based off his intelligence.
Aren't almost all the "spells"/formulae on the Alchemist list self-buff-type spells? Why would you want to up the DC of spells that have a save line of "Save: Negates (harmless)"?
Because he said artificer not alchemist.
Two different classes.
Now to answer the question:
An artificer has access to both arcane and divine spell lists, but only up to 4th level. Any number of spells can be combined into a single device. Spell statistics (casting times, etc.) remain unchanged, although no components are required and the artificer is considered the “caster” for the purposes of CL.Now spell DC is a spell statistic, and as such it would be figured as if it would be for the class that can cast that spell:
Namely if it was a cleric spell the DC would be based off of the character's Wisdom modifier, and if it was a wizard spell it would be based off his intelligence.
What about feats that modify DC ?
I'm pretty sure they are referring to the Tome of Secrets Artificer. I am playing a dwarven shotgun wielding artificer as a matter of fact. My DM just has me basing all DC's off of INT.
They don't get may High DC abilities but they can create some pretty powerful effects (Burninator: Produce Flame+Scorching Ray+Fireball= 10d6+5 damage at level 5 while only allowing a save for half on 5 of the d6's). But you quickly cut into your versatility by creating combo effects and also hamper your ability to gain extra uses from high UMD checks.
Buff's are a good way to go. At 4th level I ran Shield of Faith+Magic Weapon+bark skin. It did fairly well for turning me into a combat monster. Or I could just spend time launching the Inquisitor in our party's Judgment boosted AC into the stratosphere.
As was mentioned by the OP, The DC's tend to drop off since you stop at 4th level spells. At that point it is best to rely on DC-less spells like scorching ray, or use buffs to good effect.
A really good question is whether a artificer can stack multiple instances of the same spell in an Item but that might get downright ridiculous.
What artificer is this? The only one I know of is from Eberron and he's definitely not on any SRD.
It's over on the pathfinder SRD.
As to the feats:
I'm willing to say yes they would work based on the same line I quoted above -- the weird science isn't actual items so the fluff behind them from the player's stand point doesn't really matter for the mechanics behind it.
Besides at this point you are looking at needing 3 stats for your weird science DCs -- wisdom for divine spells, intelligence or charisma for wizard spells and charisma for the bard spells.
If you use the oracle you could reduce most of your DC requirements to Charisma (using sorcerer spells instead of wizard and oracle instead of cleric). Over all I don't think this is a horrible thing since Cha is one of the weakest stats in the game and the only thing it can do is raise your DCs... not quite the power level other casters type get out of it.
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In the errata thread for the Tome of Secrets, the author has said that all spell DCs are treated like wand or scroll DCs....minimum DC. The Artificer can have an intelligence of 8 and a wisdom of 16 and it won't impact the weird science DC for a Fireball/Inflict Serious Wounds artillery gun. Or DCs, rather, since each would have a separate DC.
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That's from a third party product, Tome of Secrets if I'm not mistaken. Posting that on the SRD might be an infringement if the material is not designated open for such.
The Artificer is from Tome of Secrets and is Open Game Content, specifically created/converted to PFRPG. As one of the missions/goals of d20pfsrd.com is to be a central storehouse of OGC created for PFRPG, it is certainly legal (as are the Ratkin, Saurian, and other Tome of Secrets elements we have added), and seems an appropriate addition to the site.
In many ways it seems that it has much of what Eberron's artificer with thee exception that instead of getting the item creation feats when a wizard would be elligible it's about a level or two later. The invention table confuses me. Is it meant to say how many total inventions the character might know at the given level? Or have around at once until the slot is "freed" by an inventions's destruction?
Also given the midrange BAB shouldn't his hit dice be D8?
There may be some errata we have missed. If someone/anyone is aware of something that is incorrect, please bring it to my attention and it will be updated.
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There may be some errata we have missed. If someone/anyone is aware of something that is incorrect, please bring it to my attention and it will be updated.
From the errata thread:Errata and Questions from Tome of Secrets
Hey there-- I've been laid low by the con crud, but I'll drag myself to the keyboard long enough to answer. :)
1) The Artificer doesn't seem to have a primary ability score. You could argue that it's intelligence, due to their focus on crafting and the craft skills, but really, it's never mentioned.I envisioned them as a sort of Jack of All Trades -- but yes, with the concentration on Craft, Intelligence makes the most sense.
1b) Extending from that, what ability score does an artificer use when using her Weird Science abilities? Is it like a magic item, which uses the lowest possible DC? Do you have to rely on multiple ability scores (Wisdom/Charisma/Intelligence) depending on where you took the spell? Can you rely on a single attribute chosen at 1st level?It's handled like a magic item, using the lowest possible DC.
2) Weird science items rely on the artificer's "caster level" when activating them, but is that set when you USE the item, or when the item is created?
2b) If it's when you use the item, how can another character activate and effectively use your ability? That doesn't seem to make sense, especially if the item is directly keyed to your character (and not an independent magic item).
The caster level is determined when the item is created, not when used.
3) Do artificers suffer any failure related consequences from working in armor heavier than light? If not, then why aren't they granted higher proficiencies? It seems that an artificer would have a lot to gain from dipping into a class like Fighter.No, they don't suffer from failure-related consequences in armor -- but they weren't granted more proficiencies as a reflection of their academic nature. (So yes, an artificer/fighter combination would be a good one.)
I think it is a weird class mainly due to the fact that it has some things that are unprecedented. A d6 hit die with the +15 Bab, as well as 5 skill points a level.
The other weird thing is that at 20th level they can have a total of 20 spells in various items, and each item can be used 11 times + more with a Use Magic DC of 20 + 1 each extra time.
So if they have 20 ranks in Use magic, and get the +3 class skill bonus, then they can actual use each item 5 extra times without risk of failure.
That means that if, and this would be limiting, but if they made 1 item per spell, then they would get to use 20 items 16 times a day each. That is casting 320 spells per day.
If they had ten items, each with two spells, they could use each items 11 times plus an additional 2 times for free. So 130 spells item uses per day, but each item has two spells for a total of 260 spells per day. Still A LOT of spells per day.
That being said, I think the flavor is great, and may still try to use them. Anticipating hearing more about gameplay from others who have actually played the class.
In the errata thread for the Tome of Secrets, the author has said that all spell DCs are treated like wand or scroll DCs....minimum DC. The Artificer can have an intelligence of 8 and a wisdom of 16 and it won't impact the weird science DC for a Fireball/Inflict Serious Wounds artillery gun. Or DCs, rather, since each would have a separate DC.
So a side note... is the minimum DC for a fireball item then DC 15 or is it DC 17 since a "creator" magic item wise, would have had to have had a 15 Int/Cha to create it in the first place, thus adding the +2 for the ability score?
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So a side note... is the minimum DC for a fireball item then DC 15 or is it DC 17 since a "creator" magic item wise, would have had to have had a 15 Int/Cha to create it in the first place, thus adding the +2 for the ability score?In the errata thread for the Tome of Secrets, the author has said that all spell DCs are treated like wand or scroll DCs....minimum DC. The Artificer can have an intelligence of 8 and a wisdom of 16 and it won't impact the weird science DC for a Fireball/Inflict Serious Wounds artillery gun. Or DCs, rather, since each would have a separate DC.
Minimum to cast the spell. 3rd level spell, so assume ability of 13. Unless the magic items in the SRD use a different minimum.
Minimum to cast the spell. 3rd level spell, so assume ability of 13. Unless the magic items in the SRD use a different minimum.So a side note... is the minimum DC for a fireball item then DC 15 or is it DC 17 since a "creator" magic item wise, would have had to have had a 15 Int/Cha to create it in the first place, thus adding the +2 for the ability score?In the errata thread for the Tome of Secrets, the author has said that all spell DCs are treated like wand or scroll DCs....minimum DC. The Artificer can have an intelligence of 8 and a wisdom of 16 and it won't impact the weird science DC for a Fireball/Inflict Serious Wounds artillery gun. Or DCs, rather, since each would have a separate DC.
yeah of course, brain fart. So it isn't DC 14, because a wizard with a 13 INT would have a minimum DC of 14? Or is it just DC 13, when the TRUE minimum DC for a caster is a 14.
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yeah of course, brain fart. So it isn't DC 14, because a wizard with a 13 INT would have a minimum DC of 14? Or is it just DC 13, when the TRUE minimum DC for a caster is a 14.Minimum to cast the spell. 3rd level spell, so assume ability of 13. Unless the magic items in the SRD use a different minimum.So a side note... is the minimum DC for a fireball item then DC 15 or is it DC 17 since a "creator" magic item wise, would have had to have had a 15 Int/Cha to create it in the first place, thus adding the +2 for the ability score?In the errata thread for the Tome of Secrets, the author has said that all spell DCs are treated like wand or scroll DCs....minimum DC. The Artificer can have an intelligence of 8 and a wisdom of 16 and it won't impact the weird science DC for a Fireball/Inflict Serious Wounds artillery gun. Or DCs, rather, since each would have a separate DC.
10 + spell level + min ability modifier to cast spell
So DC 14 for the fireball part at least. I suspect this is purely to balance against high-level artificers building devices that cast large numbers of damage spells at once. Globe of invulnerability would also be a strong argument that artificers aren't overpowered at all.
yeah of course, brain fart. So it isn't DC 14, because a wizard with a 13 INT would have a minimum DC of 14? Or is it just DC 13, when the TRUE minimum DC for a caster is a 14.Minimum to cast the spell. 3rd level spell, so assume ability of 13. Unless the magic items in the SRD use a different minimum.So a side note... is the minimum DC for a fireball item then DC 15 or is it DC 17 since a "creator" magic item wise, would have had to have had a 15 Int/Cha to create it in the first place, thus adding the +2 for the ability score?In the errata thread for the Tome of Secrets, the author has said that all spell DCs are treated like wand or scroll DCs....minimum DC. The Artificer can have an intelligence of 8 and a wisdom of 16 and it won't impact the weird science DC for a Fireball/Inflict Serious Wounds artillery gun. Or DCs, rather, since each would have a separate DC.
10 + spell level + min ability modifier to cast spell
So DC 14 for the fireball part at least. I suspect this is purely to balance against high-level artificers building devices that cast large numbers of damage spells at once. Globe of invulnerability would also be a strong argument that artificers aren't overpowered at all.
Good point with the globe. I guess they would be easier if you had some prep time. Then you just have to deal with their buffs.
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Good point with the globe. I guess they would be easier if you had some prep time. Then you just have to deal with their buffs.
Honestly, from a design standpoint, there is a lot less risk of powergaming here than with the alchemist, which can be a vicious addition to a munchkin pie. A little barbarian, some alchemist, splashes of rogue and fighter, and you could have a damager dealer that pumps up to insane levels without bugging the cleric or wizard for buff spells.