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Hi all,
Has anybody made a rule regarding the income of the PC leaders? Or is there something I'm not getting. All revenues are in BPs, and players checking out BPs incur a Loyalty check and increase Unrest.
I told my players that their lifestyles are covered - living in castles, luxury mansions, with servants (at some point in time - not right off the bat of course) and basic living expenses. But otherwise?
Any thoughts?
I think you'll have better luck posting this in the Kingmaker forum ;)
Creative Director
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We specifically didn't list incomes for the leadership roles because Kingmaker is an Adventure Path. A PC's income is the money he makes from doing quests and getting rewards and looting his enemies and finding hidden treasure and all that. If we listed incomes for all of the leadership roles, we start edging into the territory where the PCs stay at home and instead send minions out to go on adventures.
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We specifically didn't list incomes for the leadership roles because Kingmaker is an Adventure Path. A PC's income is the money he makes from doing quests and getting rewards and looting his enemies and finding hidden treasure and all that. If we listed incomes for all of the leadership roles, we start edging into the territory where the PCs stay at home and instead send minions out to go on adventures.
I would just make them play the minions ;)
I've always made my players split their wealth into combat and non-combat wealth. Combat wealth is all the stuff that upgrades their adventuring power, like +3 swords and wands of stoneskin. Non-combat wealth is just bling, like paying that lifestyle upkeep, or a golden thread robe, or a statue erected in your honor, or a castle, etc.
This way, I can make sure that my players have balanced characters by looking at combat wealth, but they can be princes or paupers with their non-combat wealth.
I think setting up something similar for a Kingmaker campaign would be a good idea as a DM. I don't have a problem with the way that the adventure path has established things however.
I think you'll have better luck posting this in the Kingmaker forum ;)
Gotcha... Rack that one to 'message board newbie' ;)
Actually, all your comments make a tremendous amount of sense.
I wasn't looking for different income for each role, just something the players would keep (and we tend to be egalitarian...). But, like I said, your comments all made a lot of sense.
However, I may decide decide to allocate them a 'cost of living allowance' according to the state of the kingdom and the guidelines in the RPG book, some along the lines of : barony = Average; duchy = wealthy, kingdom = extravagant. I would also say 'this is living allowance: no spendy on new swordies'. (Which will earn me another round of 'Evil JF does it again!').
As i will point out to my players if they ask about this. This is what profession checks are for in the game. "Profession: Politician" Start rolling. Or save up your money and start your own business in the Town. Our wizard wants to build an academy. She wants it to be HER academy but it will benefit the town. So she has been talking about chipping in her own Cash towards building it. (Her background is that she is a teacher). You could also rule that they can make a Stability Check or something each month in Place of a Profession check and use that role.
I don't see why your adventurers would take out even 1BP a month to split (2 grand, split 4-6 ways) when the Next best paid NPC in making half his profession check a week.
Random NPC: Expert 5th Level. Half Elf. 5 ranks +3 wisdom, trained +3, Skill Focus, Tools to help? +2
+13 total, Call it average roll of a 12? 25 total, 12.5 gold a week (Technically the party on needs to be there 1 week a month to make there rolls). Say you rule a natural 20 adds +10 like we do. 30+13 = DC of 43, thats still 22.5 gold.
Sorry if it seems like a rant, but in game terms and fairness thats how it would go if they don't want to take the possible unrest hit. You could rule there profession check money comes from the coffers but its not enough to reduce it.
With two competing kingdoms I got to see just how fast an imbalance between characters trying to support themselves on adventuring income vs. profession checks worked, and honestly, it didn't work all that well. One of the kingdoms, ruled by an npc and built around the Stag Lord's fort, decided flat out nobles had expenses, and regularly budgets 1 or 2 build points to pay for such (1bp = 2000gp = 10 court members supported at wealthy and himself at extravagant). He also insisted on gifting all members of his council with courtier's outfits and the jewelry of state to go with it. The unrest threat hasn't caused enough to counterbalance the expense, and has made them willing to go along with pulling out a little more when needed (for Reincarnations and such).
The other kingdom was paranoid about unrest accumulation, and managed to go for six or so months without ever getting any, but refused to pull bp out for themselves either. This one, with a PC Baron/Paladin and peasant born, was managing his kingdom from the porch of his cabin and kept a very woodsy, Erastil flavored pioneer flavor to how his court worked, but had barely enough money to keep them fed through winter. It wasn't until they lost two of their number that he agreed to pull out funds to get the neighboring kingdom to bring them back from the dead, and the rival Baron shamed him in pointing out how poor they were. Because of this, he finally agreed to start brining the general court's standard of living up from poor to wealthy in a manner similar to the first kingdom (he still can't bring himself to be extravagant though, so he's been covering everyone's expenses, including his own, at wealthy, and divvying the rest up as a monthly wage - about 80gp or so each).
Upshot? The way the kingdom economy works doesn't really stop you from pulling out at least a small amount to cover expenses, and, honestly, I haven't seen doing so threaten game balance. If anything, it makes up for the lack of treasures coming in from the wandering monsters that keep coming out of the woods to maul them every time they run off looking for trouble. Players (at least mine) get twitchy if they stay too long in the monthly Kingdom-building mode, so I don't worry too much about them not being motivated to go adventure.
Thanks guys! I love your idea Goraxes. And that would help me get them to flesh out more in-depth characters. And I also like Todd's idea of having PCs pay out the BP (in part or whole) of a business they could run for themselves...
That's alot to chew on, guys. Thanks!
I talked to my 3 of my players today. 1 (new to D&D though) didnt understand what i was talking about (he BF will explain it to her better tonight) and the other 2 Loved the idea of the profession check. It just makes sense.
I did think last session, with a lot of BNP in the pot, the party would withdraw something. But they didnt
i just assume the city provides them enough money to live 'well' with regards a room, food, consumables
no one has sked about having lots of servants yet, though.
As far as living expenses taxes should take care of that, eventually but new rulers should have to work for their income like everyone else.
What does living expenses include? I would base that on the size of the kingdom.
At the beginning it will be nothing. Later it will include food and cloths suited for a commoner. Later the food and clothes get better. At some point they get servants, and a personal guard(not to be used for adventuring), but they probably won't get statted since it is more of a background(fluff) thing.
I will probably put a limit on what they can get for free(in gp value). It won't be more than a few hundred gold pieces a month, and it won't be adventuring stuff.
I think the living expense covered is enough.
Being king they'd problably have extravgant.
"Extravagant (1,000 gp/month): The PC lives in a mansion, castle, or other extravagant home—he might even own the building in question. This is the lifestyle of most aristocrats. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 25 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes. He need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 100 gp."
Anything other than that would have to come from adventuring. So they get paid 1000GP per month to maintain their living expenses.
I might consider a bonus to unrest rolls or something if the whole group decided to downgrade their living expenses. But they wouldn't gain any money as that money would go to helping with the roll.
id say 50gp /hex or city district /mo for a king or queen. Others getting 20gp :p
So thus at a full kingdom, 80 hexes = 4000gp/mo.
Maybe further adjusted by taxlevel.. and suddenly those higher taxes begin making sense.. along with the huge loyalty losses for such fairly minor economy bonuses.
Might want to getthe loyalty losses even bigger. Like doubling them. If they result in more income.
"Damn fat cats, extorting the commoners out of a living, stealing the bread from the mouths of our children... and they? They just add more gems to their scabbards! A hundred children starving for each gem! More gems flying around their puffy overfed heads adorned with crowns of EVEN MORE gems. Outrageous!"
id say 50gp /hex or city district /mo for a king or queen. Others getting 20gp :p
So thus at a full kingdom, 80 hexes = 4000gp/mo.
Maybe further adjusted by taxlevel.. and suddenly those higher taxes begin making sense.. along with the huge loyalty losses for such fairly minor economy bonuses.Might want to getthe loyalty losses even bigger. Like doubling them. If they result in more income.
"Damn fat cats, extorting the commoners out of a living, stealing the bread from the mouths of our children... and they? They just add more gems to their scabbards! A hundred children starving for each gem! More gems flying around their puffy overfed heads adorned with crowns of EVEN MORE gems. Outrageous!"
Wouldn't 50gp/hex equate to roughly 2 silver/farmer? Thats a good 1% of their net income going to the king. At that point, it really is him extorting them.
Wouldn't 50gp/hex equate to roughly 2 silver/farmer? Thats a good 1% of their net income going to the king. At that point, it really is him extorting them.id say 50gp /hex or city district /mo for a king or queen. Others getting 20gp :p
So thus at a full kingdom, 80 hexes = 4000gp/mo.
Maybe further adjusted by taxlevel.. and suddenly those higher taxes begin making sense.. along with the huge loyalty losses for such fairly minor economy bonuses.Might want to getthe loyalty losses even bigger. Like doubling them. If they result in more income.
"Damn fat cats, extorting the commoners out of a living, stealing the bread from the mouths of our children... and they? They just add more gems to their scabbards! A hundred children starving for each gem! More gems flying around their puffy overfed heads adorned with crowns of EVEN MORE gems. Outrageous!"
Now there were those discussions once upon a time, what a commoner can earn farming dirt... iirc the numbers were quite astonishing.. something akin to well in excess of 1000gp/year ... using profession farming and craft wood etc skills boosted up ;)
As i will point out to my players if they ask about this. This is what profession checks are for in the game. "Profession: Politician" Start rolling.
Um, no. That's stupid. Your profession is "Ruler". You're getting paid (assuming you're a relatively nice guy, overall) for not wandering off to greener pastures and leaving the people of your domain to be plundered, raped, killed or enslaved (maybe and enslaved) by whatever superhuman threats lurk nearby.
Overall, the fact that PCs income still comes from loot and the "Sim Kingdom" doesn't meaningfully interface with "Dungeons&Delvers" is probably the weakest point of this AP. Not only this goes against the idea that PCs should be tied to their adventure path goals by more than sentimental attachment, it also goes against the supposedly cornerstone idea of PCs' own country being some sort of grand prize.
While it is true, that due to the inherent problems of "Wealth = Magic Power" paradigm inherited by PF, the game threatens to break whenever you try to interact with economy beyond selling loot, like, at all, still more effort should have been made to establish to, say, make repopulating and annexing Varnhold, somewhat useful in the context of actual gameplay. As it stands, if you sell all soul jars you get a metric ton of hard cash (and magic items derived from thereof) and if you don't, you basically get only moral satisfaction and some meaningless hexes on the map.
And just in general, it would be nice if the game tried to maitain a semblance of realism and made actually running a prosperous domain a more attractive option, than just systematically killing everyone in your reach and taking their stuff.
A possible answer to the problem of PCs imposing a tax on continued breathing or whatever polite euphemism you want to use is making makers of major magic items virtually nonexistent or unwilling to trade for cash, accepting only other magic instead. Doesn't quite work when PCs can make magic items themselves. At low levels you might still try restrict this stuff without rewriting the system, by ruling, that you cannot directly pour gold on the blade of your sword to turn it into a Sword of Awesomeness, but must buy rare components and whatever, and the supply of these components is miraculously level-appropriate. This still doesn't really stand the collusion with common sense once the party can teleport and planeshift, and possibly had a small stable of flying mounts.
Wouldn't 50gp/hex equate to roughly 2 silver/farmer? Thats a good 1% of their net income going to the king. At that point, it really is him extorting them.
I think you are joking...
Just 40 years ago, here in italy, 1/10th of each farmer's annual products went directly to the Priest...
1% is ridicolously low, by medieval standards.
I wish I only had to pay 1% of my net income instead of whatever convoluted percentage (roughly 25%) of my gross income I pay to my overlord.
Undeath - it's not just for liches and vampires anymore!Um, no. That's stupid. Your profession is "Ruler". You're getting paid (assuming you're a relatively nice guy, overall) for not wandering off to greener pastures and leaving the people of your domain to be plundered, raped, killed or enslaved (maybe and enslaved) by whatever superhuman threats lurk nearby.Damn! Killed and enslaved? And here I thought I was a mean DM :)
"You there, peasant! Why do you stink especially badly?"
"Wut? Oh, well, these orcs came in and they decided it'd be fun to kill me, then they decided it wouldn't be fun to farm, so they brought me back. I don't mind sir, don't mind t'all!"On a more serious note, I'd rule that the PCs are the residents of the nicest dwelling that they build, and get living expenses covered by being, well, kings and company. When you start getting economy bonuses from these buildings it's from the size of the building/amount of business that having such an august establishment attracts anyway... so it's not a stretch of the imagination to have the lords living in them.
No Dwellings - Destitute
Tenement - Poor
House - Average
Mansion - Wealthy (Extravagant if occupied by 1 PC)
Noble Villa - Extravagant for up to 3 people, wealthy otherwise.
Castle - Extravagant for up to 6 people, wealthy otherwise.
You could also track their lifestyle as a function of the size of their economy modifier, which is too much math for my poor little brain at 4 in the morning. Or you could simply withdraw the Bp/incite unrest mentioned above.
Here's what I've been doing with my PC's:
Without having to make any rolls, living expenses such as lodging, food,stabling, care for animals and mounts, expenses for hiring their various unstated workers like maids and cooks, etc. are all understood to be part of the benefits of ruling their kingdom or inherent in the BP cost to buy whatever building.
They do not receive a salary in GP, so if anyone wants to buy that +1 sword of melting faces, they have to pay out of their own personal money (money from bounties and quests) or they can make that roll to withdraw from the treasury incurring whatever penalties they recieve if hey fail.
At the same time though, my PC's have been pretty diligent in their rule. They are fast approaching their one year anniversary of the founding of the kingdom. They have pronounced a festival edict to celebrate Founder's Day. As a reward, the PC's are going to be presented with gear level appropriate gifts.
To justify the expense, since magic items sometimes cost a whole BP, I've tied it in to how they've run their government. My PC's near the start of the kingdom agreed to Director Sootscale's request to fund a city for 'civilized monsters' in the Sootscale Rocks hex. After a few months, he requested the founding of a Black Market for the monster city to regulate all of the contraband that some of his new monstrous citizens were bringing in. Director Sootscale has been working with the magister to decide what to do with some of the more powerful items they've confiscated, and they have decided to gift the party with a few of the choiciest items during the festival as a way of thanking them.
Rewarding the party with gear rather than a salary keeps them interested in adventuring. Plus, I think they'll get more of a story kick out of it if you tailor these items to your party (the paladin of Iomedae is getting an Inheritor's Gauntlet).
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Here's what I've been doing with my PC's:
Without having to make any rolls, living expenses such as lodging, food,stabling, care for animals and mounts, expenses for hiring their various unstated workers like maids and cooks, etc. are all understood to be part of the benefits of ruling their kingdom or inherent in the BP cost to buy whatever building.
They do not receive a salary in GP, so if anyone wants to buy that +1 sword of melting faces, they have to pay out of their own personal money (money from bounties and quests) or they can make that roll to withdraw from the treasury incurring whatever penalties they recieve if hey fail.
At the same time though, my PC's have been pretty diligent in their rule. They are fast approaching their one year anniversary of the founding of the kingdom. They have pronounced a festival edict to celebrate Founder's Day. As a reward, the PC's are going to be presented with gear level appropriate gifts.
To justify the expense, since magic items sometimes cost a whole BP, I've tied it in to how they've run their government. My PC's near the start of the kingdom agreed to Director Sootscale's request to fund a city for 'civilized monsters' in the Sootscale Rocks hex. After a few months, he requested the founding of a Black Market for the monster city to regulate all of the contraband that some of his new monstrous citizens were bringing in. Director Sootscale has been working with the magister to decide what to do with some of the more powerful items they've confiscated, and they have decided to gift the party with a few of the choiciest items during the festival as a way of thanking them.
Rewarding the party with gear rather than a salary keeps them interested in adventuring. Plus, I think they'll get more of a story kick out of it if you tailor these items to your party (the paladin of Iomedae is getting an Inheritor's Gauntlet).
not bad. I'm not sure how to handle it yet. So keep up all the ideas. I'll be starting it up soon.
thnx,
PJ