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Errm... but sorcerers get all the chicks and slavish worshipers. Enough said.
You will be tempted to make contingency plans, but honestly, her INT of 12 means she shouldn't be Batman in the plan department. I see too many players use game mechanics to come up with plans that truthfully, should be beyond their characters limits.
Oh, so wizard's are allowed to have Batman's brains AND Green Lanturn's power level and versatility but Sorcerers aren't even allowed to be intelligent and tactical with what powers they do have.
Thaaaat sounds really fair *sarcasm twitch*
Okay, nevermind her Intelligence score or the need for actual contingencies. She has an awesome Bluff score, high enough that she can threaten almost anyone with a handful of pretend contingencies.
Look in the Player's Handbook, decide some feasible countermeasures and, when they threaten you, lie her pants off. Stuff like:
- She has resurrection contingencies in place. Three of her original fingers are in the possession of sympathetic religious orders.
- The imp has been poisoning their food. They will fall deadly ill in weeks if not days. She alone knows the antidote.
- She's secretly the regent's lover and his most trusted agent.
- She's with child, and only pretends to be a crone for the sake of travel.
As with all PC vs. PC bluffing, it's important the GM act a blind mediator so they can't metagame your lies. Contact your GM and settle some rolls beforehand, so he can be the one to tell the other PCs Hama is telling the truth.
Did you just compare becoming a King to becoming a Lich? You do know what a Lich is right? The template carries a +2 CR adjustment to an NPC, that means it more powerful than a NPC of the same level without the Lich Template. Which means it is a lot more powerful that a PC of the same level because the Lich isn't visiting for one encounter its camping the whole session.
Mr. Fishy understands the that you worked hard to over come your characters weaknesses...WAIT, you had a 25 point buy??? So you burned your stats for the extra Charisma? huh...
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Did you just compare becoming a King to becoming a Lich? You do know what a Lich is right? The template carries a +2 CR adjustment to an NPC, that means it more powerful than a NPC of the same level without the Lich Template. Which means it is a lot more powerful that a PC of the same level because the Lich isn't visiting for one encounter its camping the whole session.
Mr. Fishy understands the that you worked hard to over come your characters weaknesses...WAIT, you had a 25 point buy??? So you burned your stats for the extra Charisma? huh...
+1. Lich is not the same as becoming a king.
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Ding ding ding. I think we have a winner. From others posts, ravingdork is the kind of powergamer that plays fast and loose with the rules...which is honestly gonna annoy the a lot of people. The roleplayers get annoyed and even most powergamers get annoyed as most powergamers make it a point to play within the rules pretty strictly.What's happening is your going for an extremely munchkin character build, and I'm guessing the rest of your group isn't too happy about it, and it appears their solution is to kill your character. I think there are much better ways for them to address their problem, but there you have it.
Even if that is the case (I don't believe it is as Hama has rarely even been in the PC spotlight) then it is still something the players should come and talk to me about out of game, rather than leaving confusing maybe-threats.
It´s not about being in the limelight...it´s about playing fast and loose with the rules to gain as much power as possible. ANY kind of powergaming tends to annoy the ¨roleplayers¨...but when your doing that, it´s oh so much worse. And for other powergamers, the fact that your not really playing in the rules annoys them. Basically they are annoyed with YOU as a player and not the character and using asshatery to deal with it. Look, they are going about it all wrong...but you need to understand that the style of gaming you seem to enjoy is one that does really annoy quite a few people. So you can either find other people who play as you do or you can try to change how you play. Quite frankly if you played with other fast and loose powergamers, I think you will either PvP or leave from annoyances. If ANYONE tried to pull a get the lich or vampire template for free around here, they would never be able to find another game again as they get a big munchkin stamp on their head for all DMs to see. Especially if your making yourself venerable for extra charisma...then you get the red letters.
It´s not about being in the limelight...it´s about playing fast and loose with the rules to gain as much power as possible. ANY kind of powergaming tends to annoy the ¨roleplayers¨...but when your doing that, it´s oh so much worse. And for other powergamers, the fact that your not really playing in the rules annoys them. Basically they are annoyed with YOU as a player and not the character and using asshatery to deal with it. Look, they are going about it all wrong...but you need to understand that the style of gaming you seem to enjoy is one that does really annoy quite a few people. So you can either find other people who play as you do or you can try to change how you play. Quite frankly if you played with other fast and loose powergamers, I think you will either PvP or leave from annoyances. If ANYONE tried to pull a get the lich or vampire template for free around here, they would never be able to find another game again as they get a big munchkin stamp on their head for all DMs to see. Especially if your making yourself venerable for extra...
I AM playing within the rules. Even if the GM decides to not delay my progression for balances' sake, I would still (technically) be within the rules (as the rules don't say whether or not to delay progression in the case of acquired templates).
I say "technically" because I AM inclined to agree that it would be a little unbalancing (playing a lich with no real drawbacks), but not nearly as unbalancing as you all seem to think (and certainly not game breaking or even slightly detrimental to the other characters or their players). An ability that makes a monstrous NPC powerful or frightening does not necessarily make a monstrous PC powerful or frightening (take the cyclops' auto-20 ability for example--terrifying to the PCs, but a PC could only use such an ability to, at worst, crit a single enemy). The lich's spawning is another example. An NPC lich has effectively limitless resources due to being the antagonist. Even if the PCs defeat him he comes back with a new set of toys. Not so for a PC lich.
The thing you guys seem to be missing is, for the purposes of determining game balance, the only thing you should be looking at are things that directly affect combat ability. As I said before, anything that increases your economy of actions will usually get you more bang for your buck. So I won't be able to die. So what? There are still plenty of ways of defeating a lich without destroying them. Fates worse than death are common (a lich imprisoned and/or tortured for eternity for example).
In any case, I've been roleplaying with the same group for nearly 10 years. There's nothing new about the way I'm doing things.
As such, I seriously doubt it's the power gaming aspect that is bothering them. I'm one of the weakest characters in the party thanks to all my drawbacks and weaknesses. Sure I have ungodly charisma-based skills and spell DCs, but I also have spell list that is FAR from optimal for a sorcerer. And even if I do achieve lichdom, I'll still have crappy saves, AC, CMD, and physical anything. Despite all of my obvious power-gaming (which I'm not ashamed of) most of my character's power comes from my ability to roleplay well, not because of the numbers.
I'm probably just overreacting to the other players pulling my leg which, admittedly, they do all the time just for kicks.
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This may have been suggested already, but since the party is thinking of offing your character, and acting “preemptively” why don’t you do the same? Get a couple scrolls of Dominate Person. While they are sleeping, open up with a bestow curse, ( to suppress their saving throws) then follow through with a Dominate person.
Once they are dominated, hit them with Asimov’s first law of robotics.
“1) a robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.”
of course your version might go Cleric, or ranger etc, You may not injure my character or through inaction allow mu character to come to harm.
There are of cors ways to wiggle through this, but it might just help yoru character sleep better at night
I hope this helps.
This may have been suggested already, but since the party is thinking of offing your character, and acting “preemptively” why don’t you do the same? Get a couple scrolls of Dominate Person. While they are sleeping, open up with a bestow curse, ( to suppress their saving throws) then follow through with a Dominate person.
Once they are dominated, hit them with Asimov’s first law of robotics.“1) a robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.”
of course your version might go Cleric, or ranger etc, You may not injure my character or through inaction allow mu character to come to harm.
There are of cors ways to wiggle through this, but it might just help yoru character sleep better at night
I hope this helps.
Unlike my fellow players I am not at all comfortable with doing things that have a negative impact on another player's fun (directly or otherwise), such as killing their character off (or even taking away a marginal amount of control as you suggest).
Lord knows, if someone put a dominate effect like that on me (even if it didn't largely effect my actions) I would be pretty pissed. I imagine that's par for the course for most roleplayers. Losing control of one's character, even if only for a little while, just isn't fun.
Despite my min/maxing tendencies, I take great care to make sure I am not overshadowing the other PCs or somehow diminishing their fun. Though I often come off as a remorseless munchkin nobody would ever want to play with on THESE forums, most people who have played with me actually find me to be a rather enjoyable roleplayer to be around (so I hear it told anyhow).
If it hadn't already been decided that the PvP was going to be at the END of the campaign, if at all, then I might not have played in this particular campaign to begin with for fear of ruining someone's fun (or else having my fun ruined). As it was, I DID agree to it since, it being the end game, PvP wouldn't really matter all that much at that point.
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Unlike my fellow players I am not at all comfortable with doing things that have a negative impact on another player's fun (directly or otherwise), such as killing their character off (or even taking away a marginal amount of control as you suggest).
Lord knows, if someone put a dominate effect like that on me (even if it didn't largely effect my actions) I would be pretty pissed. I imagine that's par for the course for most roleplayers. Losing control of one's character, even if only for a little while, just isn't fun.
Despite my min/maxing tendencies, I take great care to make sure I am not overshadowing the other PCs or somehow diminishing their fun. Though I often come off as a remorseless munchkin nobody would ever want to play with on THESE forums, most people who have played with me actually find me to be a rather enjoyable roleplayer to be around (so I hear it told anyhow).
If it hadn't already been decided that the PvP was going to be at the END of the campaign, if at all, then I might not have played in this particular campaign to begin with for fear of ruining someone's fun (or else having my fun ruined). As it was, I DID agree to it since, it being the end game, PvP wouldn't really matter...
I guess my only suggestion at this point would be to let your fellow players or PC's know just that. You seem pretty earnest that you don't want to disrupt the games pace, so you just need to convince them your PC wont unduly endanger the party. You have the corresponding stats and skill to convince them in game, esp with the fact that you are telling the truth as it would imply no negative modifiers against you. Try doing it as a diplomacy roll out, by the book as it were.
I tried the same trick with a character many years ago..
..tho it wasn't an evil campaign. My added cheese was 'He's a *good* lich!'
*wiggling of eyebrows*
This was 2nd Ed, things were messy. Babies cried.
People trying to kill your character? Well, it's something that you'd consider in an evil campaign and plan for.
An agreement not to PK until climatic end? Ok, fairplay but, knowing this seems to have influenced your character's stats more than just a little.
If there was no agreement - would you have gone for a Str of 2?
..and in the game is there any real way to enforce the agreement?
I empathise with you - it's a real kicker to have your mates planning your character's demise - I realised, with hindsight, that is was a direct consequence of my.. how shall we say, careful utilisation of the existing rule set to maximise character potential?
..essentially, they were scared! :)
Take it as a compliment -- if your character is killed then be sure you have a friend to rez you. She's got a godlt charisma - that's a lot of friends! :)
Lichdom is very powerful. Focusing on only the combat advantage is missing the bigger picture.
For thing, it allows you to negate many drawbacks inherent in a/your character build - drawbacks/weaknesses that have been used to gain more power.
You're planned long term - they see the plan for what it is. You need to plan for betrayal in an evil campaign.
Hope it all works out, good luck!
I have spent RESOURCES. To get nothing in return (to be delayed progression for balance sake) is to defeat the whole point!
In any event, neither of you have shown me any rules that say I should lose levels for having become a lich. All I see are personal opinions and holdover ideas from v3.5 (which didn't work even then).
You're right. Pathfinder has no rules for this kind of munchkinism.
There is no way, no way, NO WAY in this game to get the kinds of bonuses you want just handed to you for a mere 120,000 gp. Not even with Wish. Your character will get tons of mechanical benefit and in return will give up a tiny bit of her personal wealth?
I agree with you that LAs just don't work out very well. But let's face it, a 12th level LICH sorcerer is way, way, WAY more powerful than a 12th level human sorcerer.
What will the other PCs get? Are each of them getting similar bonuses? Are they all becoming virtual demi-gods too?
I bet they are not, and I also bet this is the main sore spot that is getting them talking about killing you. Your game will become the "This is the Lich Show, starring Hama the Lich and a few unessential PC minions too worthless to mention."
If I had a PC in that game, I'd be grumbling about it too.
In the end, I still don't see any in-game reasons why their characters would want to kill Hama. The party cleric converted Hama to his faith, and as a powerful and loyal member of his church she can only really be a boon to his vile cause. The party barbarian/monk was brought out of his savagery and taught about enlightenment and how to be civilized (as well as how to read) by Hama herself. The party bard is Hama's business partner (they deal in slaves and poison). The party ranger has been rescued by Hama (at great risk to herself) a number of times. The whole thing is a symbiotic "you help me accomplish my goals and I'll help you accomplish your goals" kind of affair. She's also the party's cook. The others would literally STARVE without her.
Really?
OK, here goes:
Cleric: You don't mention the faith, but suffice it to say, once Hama becomes a lich her earthly need for a god, for her soul to be protected, ceases to exist. Hence she needs no religion. What she does need is a handy cleric whipping-boy dangling on puppet-strings to heal her with negative energy.
Barbarian/Monk: Lawful? Yeah, I see that working with a lich. The bard, cleric, and (probably) ranger can't even hardly hurt a lich, so this character is the only threat. As in, eliminate him first. And he probably knows it. Teaching him to read and to go potty in the chamber pot will not hold his hand when he decides it is you or him, and now that he's civilized, I'm sure he'll realize that the inhuman lich will be consolidating her (its) power-base by dominating who she can and eliminating the rest, and this guy is at the top of the eliminate list. Best to strike first.
Bard: This character is helpless before a lich. Smart enough to know that this adventuring group will end badly. Only one of you gets to ride off into the sunset, and he knows it. And he knows that none of his magic and none of his puny combat will make a dent in a lich. So his only chance of a sunset is to get you before you're a lich. And he's your business partner, but with you gone, he's sole owner. That's two good in-game reasons.
Ranger: The wildcard. I don't know how this character is specced. If Undead are high on the favored enemy list, then he's a threat to you (and you'll kill him for it as fast as you can). If not, then maybe he's just puppet material - dominate him and keep him around to handle curious paladins that come snooping around. Either way, his future looks bleak. Usually rangers handle things by getting out of dodge, heading off for parts unknown and never looking back, so maybe he has the least reason to gork you. But if he has reasons NOT to leave, then his only choice is gorking you before it's too late.
And no, they won't starve. Hopefully by 9th level they have amassed enough GP for a few weeks of rations, yes? I assume you were being funny when you wrote that bit...
So everyone has an in-game reason. And they all have one I didn't mention above. Everyone one of them is an evil bastard. They know that working together has kept them alive, but they know that they are all eyeballing each other for the perfect chance to pounce. They each know that all their "friends" will stick a dagger in their back the moment they think it's in their own interest to do so. For now, there's a sense of balance in the "mutually assured destruction" - nobody wants to make the first move, and presumably there is a boss somewhere who won't like it if you guys start hacking and whacking eachother. But you all know it's coming, and one day it will happen - and if that day comes and one of you is an invincible lich, well, then the rest of the PCs know they are doomed to death. Or worse. Unless they act now.
Plenty of in-game reasons.
And, frankly, if I were playing a PC in this group, I would have come up with an "in-game" justification to massacre Hama long ago (and the day we found out she wants to become a lich would have been the day I found my reason). As a player, the kind of munchkin character that Hama is really irks me. A lot. Ability scores like this, combined with your "I want ultimate power with no offsetting mechanical balance" approach to playing her, would very quickly drain away the enjoyment I get from showing up to the game sessions. I wouldn't appreciate that, nor would I thank you for creating that situation, so I would either leave the game outright, or, if I liked the game, I would get rid of the character that offends me. Hama would have to go, and I would look for any "in-game" motivation I could find.
And that might be, to some degree, why your fellow players are plotting against Hama (note, I said players, not PCs, because it's fairly obvous to me that many, maybe all, of the players feel the same way I do, at least to some degree - if not, then you wouldn't be having the players discussing, out of character, killing Hama).
Despite my min/maxing tendencies, I take great care to make sure I am not overshadowing the other PCs or somehow diminishing their fun. Though I often come off as a remorseless munchkin nobody would ever want to play with on THESE forums, most people who have played with me actually find me to be a rather enjoyable roleplayer to be around (so I hear it told anyhow).
That's good to know. Maybe there's hope for you after all...
;)
That means your fellow players are plotting Hama's death, not yours, which is probably a good thing.
That also means that you are probably "overshadowing the other PCs or somehow diminishing their fun" more than you think you are, or else, you've given them reason to believe that the future Hama will overshadow them.
I say again, if that isn't the case, then they players wouldn't be plotting Hama's downfall.
Something to think about.
Ya know I played an evil pc who became a lich once.....if I were in the game with a player planning that, that pc simply must die. Once you achieve lichdom the other pc's are expendable and live only so long as you find them useful and they know this. They should have killed your pc before now honestly
As of late, the other players have taken to telling me that they are going to kill off my witch. Their personalities are such that it is hard to gauge whether they really mean it, or if they are just pulling my leg.What should I do about this potential threat (in-game and out)?
There is no right answer to this because the situational variables are so extensive.
My hunch, is that the other players want you out of the game. Whatever the reason, and regardless of it is right or justified. I think you should probably consider either modifying your playing style or find another group that fits your style better.So you...
...kill the other players? (the campaign is over, and you may find it actually isn't, you just weren't invited to the next session)
...your character can kill the rest of the party by yourself (well that's not very fun if your one of the other players who should be of equal caliber. This could be the source of the hostility, and frankly a result of a poor GM to let this happen)
It's a game, so if you're having then don't change anything. If you're not having fun. seriously consider the two options of modyfing your style or changing groups.
Though it saddens me to say it, if this game does go south to the point where I decide to leave the campaign, the entire campaign will fall apart soon after.
Hama has done much, role-play wise, to make herself indispensable. If she dies due to treachery, nearly everything that has been done in the name of our party's benefactor will be undone. When that happens, I'm sure an entire kingdom of trouble will come down on their heads.
Also, I provide the playing environment, the books, and nearly all the other equipment and resources that they use. Furthermore, I hold the sole copies of all their character sheets.
I guess it's a good thing I am such a nice and tolerant fellow willing to talk things out. ;)
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Though it saddens me to say it, if this game does go south to the point where I decide to leave the campaign, the entire campaign will fall apart soon after.
Hama has done much, role-play wise, to make herself indispensable. If she dies due to treachery, nearly everything that has been done in the name of our party's benefactor will be undone. When that happens, I'm sure an entire kingdom of trouble will come down on their heads.
Also, I provide the playing environment, the books, and nearly all the other equipment and resources that they use. Furthermore, I hold the sole copies of all their character sheets.
I guess it's a good thing I am such a nice and tolerant fellow willing to talk things out. ;)
So you are holding the entire game hostage with your insistence on this munchkin PC concept. Has the idea crossed your mind that you are wrong in this and the only reason your character isn't dead already is because you are basically holding each persons roleplaying experience over their heads? I seriously hope this isn't the case with what I can assume only to be your real life, flesh and blood friends.
If that really is what is going on... there are simply no words to express .... how incredibly petty and ugly a person you are.
Absolutely not. In-game quests, roleplaying, etc, should never be used to balance out mechanical aspects. This has been a design paradigm since 3.0.But it wasn't all in-game quests. A significant amount of personal character resources have been invested (or will be invested rather) to make this character work--or do you think going more than half your career without proper gear, AC, saves, HP, etc., is not some kind of investment?
Everybody else is crafting, collecting, or buying cool magic items to enhance their characters. I am not. I am putting everything into the hope of a phylactery. Saving up for a phylactery is NOT merely "roleplaying," it is "allocation of resources."
I'm in agreement with Ravingdork on this one. Assuming your GM allows his character to go lich, there is _no_ justification for loss of levels, holding back on levels, or whatever. Lichdom has a HUGE front end load in terms of resources and in-character effort to achieve. Getting there can be the point of an entire campaign.
Look at this from another perspective. If a character spent months and years saving up gold, making connections, doing quests, etcetera, all to finance and arrange to take over a kingdom, and succeeds, becoming the 'new king', do you dock them levels, hold back their progression, or some-such just because they acquired a boatload of new power?
Of course not, because with great power comes great consequences. In most cases, a new king wouldn't be able to adventure, or have very different adventures (quelling rebellions, squashing out rightful heirs, stocking the royal harem, etcetera).
Lichdom is similar. It comes with a whole new set of problems - looking like a rotting shell, becoming a paladin target, a new level of nasty evil-er adversaries (now with extra evil!), undead politics, infernal machinations to get her killed for her juicy, juicy soul - you name it.
As for the power-imbalance thing, the main thing about liches is that...
Normally getting a kingdom is just fluff, with not much benefit. Comparing it to a Lich is one of those illogical debate thingies. I believe your logic is a red herring.
Edit: edited
stuff about being weak
Dude you are an arcane caster. You make it look like people can just have their way with you. No you are not a wizard, but to imprison, kill or handicap a power-gamed caster is far from easy.
Pun Pun was created within the rules.
Directly affect combat eh:
A lich gains channel resistance +4, DR 15/bludgeoning and magic, and immunity to cold and electricity (in addition to those granted by its undead traits). The lich also gains the following defensive ability.Rejuvenation (Su): When a lich is destroyed, its phylactery (which is generally hidden by the lich in a safe place far from where it chooses to dwell) immediately begins to rebuild the undead spellcaster's body nearby. This process takes 1d10 days—if the body is destroyed before that time passes, the phylactery merely starts the process anew. After this time passes, the lich wakens fully healed (albeit without any gear it left behind on its old body), usually with a burning need for revenge against those who previously destroyed it.
Damage: A lich's touch attack uses negative energy to deal 1d8 points of damage to living creatures + 1 point of damage per 2 Hit Dice possessed by the lich. As negative energy, this damage can be used to heal undead creatures. A lich can take a full-round action to infuse itself with this energy, healing damage as if it had used its touch attack against itself.
Special Attacks: A lich gains the two special attacks described below. Save DCs are equal to 10 + 1/2 lich's HD + lich's Cha modifier unless otherwise noted.
Fear Aura (Su): Creatures of less than 5 HD in a 60-foot radius that look at the lich must succeed on a Will save or become frightened. Creatures with 5 HD or more must succeed at a Will save or be shaken for a number of rounds equal to the lich's Hit Dice. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same lich's aura for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.
Paralyzing Touch (Su): Any living creature a lich hits with its touch attack must succeed on a Fortitude save or be permanently paralyzed. Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim (see the bestow curse spell description, with a DC equal to the lich's save DC). The effect cannot be dispelled. Anyone paralyzed by a lich seems dead, though a DC 20 Perception check or a DC 15 Heal check reveals that the victim is still alive.
Abilities: Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2. Being undead, a lich has no Constitution score.
Skills: Liches have a +8 racial bonus on Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth checks. A lich always treats Climb, Disguise, Fly, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Stealth as class skills. Otherwise, skills are the same as the base creature.
You also admitted to most likely having the most hit points when you become a lich. Even if I am wrong about that you will jump to over 100 hp. How does that not affect combat?
I'm piping in to smile about the 27,000gp the Str 2 character is carrying.
50 coins = 1 pound.
Only 540 lbs. of coins... no big deal.
PS My players should read this thread.
Hama has done much, role-play wise, to make herself indispensable. If she dies due to treachery, nearly everything that has been done in the name of our party's benefactor will be undone. When that happens, I'm sure an entire kingdom of trouble will come down on their heads.
My guess is, the characters should care, somewhat, about this stuff. But, they're evil, and they want to live, so as soon as Hama is more of a threat than this other stuff, they'll take action, no matter what the consequences to their benefactor of kingdom might be.
If they're dead, they really won't care about that stuff, but if they live and their kingdom goes down the midden heap, they can always find another benefactor and kingdom...
Also, I provide the playing environment, the books, and nearly all the other equipment and resources that they use. Furthermore, I hold the sole copies of all their character sheets.
My guess on this is, Hama is alive today because of this. If you taking your marbles and going home would [b]not[/i] ruin their gaming experience, the other players would have taken steps long before now.
If it were me, I would have been emailing them, or phone calling, saying "Hey, guys, we need to have a chat with this Ravingdork guy to get him to ditch the munchkin witch and play an acceptable character. If he gets mad and kicks us out of his home I'll clear off my coffee table and set up a gaming space in my living room until we figure out something better."
I suspect that there is a whole lot more player-to-player friction here than you're letting on (or maybe even more than you are aware of yourself).
So you are holding the entire game hostage with your insistence on this munchkin PC concept. Has the idea crossed your mind that you are wrong in this and the only reason your character isn't dead already is because you are basically holding each persons roleplaying experience over their heads? I seriously hope this isn't the case with what I can assume only to be your real life, flesh and blood friends.
If that really is what is going on... there are simply no words to express .... how incredibly petty and ugly a person you are.
I am not, and that is not what is actually happening. I only said it in jest, but I guess it didn't translate well with text (there WAS a smiley face).
I would never really do such a thing for fear of legitimately losing my dearest friends and fellow roleplayers forever. It would just be too petty a thing to waste such great friends on.
They appreciate what I do for them as much as I appreciate what they do for me (bring food and cook a lot).
Despite the way it seems in this thread, we get along swell and are all on good terms with one another. Even if they do kill Hama, I would still count them among my friends and would continue to roleplay with them (though I would be upset for a time).
I'm piping in to smile about the 27,000gp the Str 2 character is carrying.
50 coins = 1 pound.
Only 540 lbs. of coins... no big deal.
PS My players should read this thread.
Quite obviously, Hama does not carry her wealth with her wherever she goes.
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So you are holding the entire game hostage with your insistence on this munchkin PC concept. Has the idea crossed your mind that you are wrong in this and the only reason your character isn't dead already is because you are basically holding each persons roleplaying experience over their heads? I seriously hope this isn't the case with what I can assume only to be your real life, flesh and blood friends.
If that really is what is going on... there are simply no words to express .... how incredibly petty and ugly a person you are.
I am not, and that is not what is actually happening. I only said it in jest, but I guess it didn't translate well with text (their was a smiley face).
I would never really do such a thing for fear of legitimately losing my dearest friends and fellow roleplayers forever. It would just be too petty a thing to waste such great friends on.
Oh thank god! I apologize if i did not pick up on that, just simply... the raw brutality of something like that is unfathomable.
I am afraid I am tapped on advice for you though, all I can suggest is to work it out with your players and maybe work out some kind of level buyback system, trade down a level or two... the transformation into undead for RP reasons alone should put you back let alone the whole LA situation. At one point I gained a were-bear template on a monk, I was only level 6 at the time mind you but the shock of the physiological change on my body set me back the appropriate amount. You have to work in some kind of tradeoff for the LA because you are already removing all of the character flaws with the transfer, it would be equivelent to gaining something like 5 levels instantly otherwise.
stuff about being weakA lich gains channel resistance +4, DR 15/bludgeoning and magic, and immunity to cold and electricity (in addition to those granted by its undead traits). The lich also gains the following defensive ability.
Rejuvenation (Su): When a lich is destroyed, its phylactery (which is generally hidden by the lich in a safe place far from where it chooses to dwell) immediately begins to rebuild the undead spellcaster's body nearby. This process takes 1d10 days—if the body is destroyed before that time passes, the phylactery merely starts the process anew. After this time passes, the lich wakens fully healed (albeit without any gear it left behind on its old body), usually with a burning need for revenge against those who previously destroyed it.
Damage: A lich's touch attack uses negative energy to deal 1d8 points of damage to living creatures + 1 point of damage per 2 Hit Dice possessed by the lich. As negative energy, this damage can be used to heal undead creatures. A lich can take a full-round action to infuse itself with this energy, healing damage as if it had used its touch attack against itself.
Special Attacks: A lich gains the two special attacks described below. Save DCs are equal to 10 + 1/2 lich's HD + lich's Cha modifier unless otherwise noted.
Fear Aura (Su): Creatures of less than 5 HD in a 60-foot radius that look at the lich must succeed on a Will save or become frightened. Creatures with 5 HD or more must succeed at a Will save or be shaken for a number of rounds equal to the lich's Hit Dice. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same lich's aura for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.
Paralyzing Touch (Su): Any living creature a lich hits with its touch attack must succeed on a Fortitude save or be permanently paralyzed. Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim (see the bestow curse spell description, with a DC equal to the lich's save DC). The effect cannot be dispelled. Anyone paralyzed by a lich seems dead, though a DC 20 Perception check or a DC 15 Heal check reveals that the victim is still alive.
Abilities: Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2. Being undead, a lich has no Constitution score.
Skills: Liches have a +8 racial bonus on Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth checks. A lich always treats Climb, Disguise, Fly, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Stealth as class skills. Otherwise, skills are the same as the base creature.
Alright, alright. That is a lot of badass stuff. Still, once Hama becomes a lich, she may actually be on par with some of the other characters as a result.
Quite obviously, Hama does not carry her wealth with her wherever she goes.I'm piping in to smile about the 27,000gp the Str 2 character is carrying.
50 coins = 1 pound.
Only 540 lbs. of coins... no big deal.
PS My players should read this thread.
Hama can't carry her wealth with her anywhere she goes. :P
Alright, alright. That is a lot of badass stuff. Still, once Hama becomes a lich, she may actually be on par with some of the other characters as a result.
You already have an insane charisma, now you get undead goodies. You can probably take on two party members at the same time, if not all of them at that point.
You could probably give them a run for their money now if you had enough space to not be charged in round one. I don't think you would win, but you could probably take at least one of them out of the fight b4 you went down.
PS: As a lich if you die you get to come back and try again. If you kill one party member they have to spend a lot of money or stay dead. Rinse and repeat. My money is on the lich.
Hama can't carry her wealth with her anywhere she goes. :P
Quite obviously, Hama does not carry her wealth with her wherever she goes.I'm piping in to smile about the 27,000gp the Str 2 character is carrying.
50 coins = 1 pound.
Only 540 lbs. of coins... no big deal.
PS My players should read this thread.
It's hidden away. But should she need to move it she can put it in her wagon 40 lb. at a time (if she staggers with it). Also, don't forget: she has a consular imp and summoned monsters that can help her out.
Our most common reference to pure evil in real world example is Hitler, who clearly had a large number of evil close colleagues (Himmler, Goering, etc) who worked with him. None of them ever tried to kill each other to our knowledge.
Of course that was a purge by Hitler of somewhat disloyal peers, to consolidate his just won power. Which kinda could be applied to this case. :p
Alright, alright. That is a lot of badass stuff. Still, once Hama becomes a lich, she may actually be on par with some of the other characters as a result.
Wait a minute. You're saying that if you get all those lich powers (a template that effectively adds +2 to the challenge rating of the person, monster, or thing that acquires the template), then, and only after getting all this stuff, you'll be equal to the other characters?
Equal?
I call BS on this one.
Going back to your OP, you posted this:
Players: We are going to kill Hama.
Myself: Why would your characters do something like that? ...
Players: Why would we do something like that? Hama has the ability to wipe us all out with a single spell, granting us a save that we have less than a 20% chance of passing. We're going to do it out of fear, out of self-preservation.
So, the players of those 4 PCs are afraid of Hama. In their eyes, a FOUR-against-ONE battle vs. Hama is a lost cause. They obviously don't think you need to get a ton of otherwise unachievable and horribly unbalancing power to be equal to them. Clearly, your group has differing opinions of Hama's power.
Or you've been just trolling from the first post.
Alright, alright. That is a lot of badass stuff. Still, once Hama becomes a lich, she may actually be on par with some of the other characters as a result.Wait a minute. You're saying that if you get all those lich powers (a template that effectively adds +2 to the challenge rating of the person, monster, or thing that acquires the template), then, and only after getting all this stuff, you'll be equal to the other characters?
Equal?
I call BS on this one.
Pretty much, yes (with the notable exception of durability). Hama is weak in a number of important areas (and will continue to be after reaching lichdom). Several posters have already posted a number of easy methods of killing her (shadow's touch for example) as well as some amazement that she had made it this far.
Going back to your OP, you posted this:
So, the players of those 4 PCs are afraid of Hama. In their eyes, a FOUR-against-ONE battle vs. Hama is a lost cause. They obviously don't think you need to get a ton of otherwise unachievable and horribly unbalancing power to be equal to them. Clearly, your group has differing opinions of Hama's power.Players: We are going to kill Hama.
Myself: Why would your characters do something like that? ...
Players: Why would we do something like that? Hama has the ability to wipe us all out with a single spell, granting us a save that we have less than a 20% chance of passing. We're going to do it out of fear, out of self-preservation.
As I said before, I don't know where they got that idea from. I posted Hama's spell list early on in this thread. There is nothing there capable of taking out the entire party in one casting. In fact, as far as spell lists go, there are some pretty poor choices on there picked for flavor reasons (I wanted Hama to be a master of curses so she has bestow curse even though she will never land a touch attack, and remove curse which would have been better as a scroll than a limited spell known).
This is but one of the many things that leads me to believe they may have just been pulling my leg.
Or you've been just trolling from the first post.
Since when is defending one's play style from attack considered "trolling?"
Players: We are going to kill Hama.
Myself: Why would your characters do something like that? ...
Players: Why would we do something like that? Hama has the ability to wipe us all out with a single spell, granting us a save that we have less than a 20% chance of passing. We're going to do it out of fear, out of self-preservation.
So, the players of those 4 PCs are afraid of Hama. In their eyes, a FOUR-against-ONE battle vs. Hama is a lost cause. They obviously don't think you need to get a ton of otherwise unachievable and horribly unbalancing power to be equal to them. Clearly, your group has differing opinions of Hama's power.
Or you've been just trolling from the first post.
Well, his spell list at the moment doesn't include a spell which could do that. I am guessing that Black Tentacles or the like could potentially be what they are afraid of. In any case, it seems they have looked at future spells Hama could get to come to this conclusion.
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It's a funny viscious circle going on here:
RD: "My character is weak, and if I become a Lich I might be on par with other party members"
Players: "His character is OP and now he wants to be a lich too !"
The lesson I picked up in 15 years of RP'ing is that "players versus players" game modes do not work. Really. I despise Vampire, Legend of Five Rings and other "being a dick to fellow players is something we encourage" settings, because it always ends up with someone letting his inner douchebag or munchkin out of the cage and leads to problems.
Seriously. Role-playing doesn't always have to be about being the valiant heroes who save the world, but it should always be about a bunch of people having happy fun together. Being jerks or spending hours planning how to backstab or to counterbackstab the other folks you're supposed to have fun with is bad.
It's a funny viscious circle going on here:
RD: "My character is weak, and if I become a Lich I might be on par with other party members"
Players: "His character is OP and now he wants to be a lich too !"
There is nothing stopping them from becoming liches or similar creatures in their own right. Being spellcasters, the bard, the cleric, and the ranger all have that capability. Hell, maybe we will all take that 6-month vacation together. :)
EDIT: In fact, they were surprised to learn this little factoid a while back. They even seemed to be considering the possibility of doing just that.
The lesson I picked up in 15 years of RP'ing is that "players versus players" game modes do not work. Really. I despise Vampire, Legend of Five Rings and other "being a dick to fellow players is something we encourage" settings, because it always ends up with someone letting his inner douchebag or munchkin out of the cage and leads to problems.
Seriously. Role-playing doesn't always have to be about being the valiant heroes who save the world, but it should always be about a bunch of people having happy fun together. Being jerks or spending hours planning how to backstab or to counterbackstab the other folks you're supposed to have fun with is bad.
Too true.
As a DM I am a bit confused by some of responses the OP has gotten. He and his DM obviously sat down and set up, from the very beginning, for this character to become a lich, or DIE. He has taken significant penelties to his stats, and roleplayed out this lack of stats, and done so in an intelligent manner. All with the stated goal, again one agreed to by his DM, to become a lich. And I see very little difference in his physical stats than from a venerable human commoner either. (Str 2, Dex 6, Con 4)
Will that make him more powerfull? Yes, absolutly. Does it make him overpowered? Nope, not at all. Again, this is something that was PLANNED. If I were running this campaign I would probably make him "sit out" a level for the other players to make up for the LA. But that is about it. And even if/when he does become a lich, his spells are still going to be the same,
Not sure if I was in his shoes if I would have gone to the extreme he has to get to that point, but from an RP perspective he certainly seems to have gone the extra mile to achieve his goal. Personally I would have opted for a Dread Necromancer build, gotten better stats (with the exception of the CHA), better spells, and still would have ended up becoming a lich.
Fair enough assesment, but everyone is falling for the 'shell game' our friend is playing. If this whole situation is truly not fabricated, then I'm stressing my original point. If nobody wants to play with you because your feet stink, wash your feet. Otherwise hang out with kids without noses. Seriously, this is like Jerry Springer. I can't believe I'm watching it, but it's just sooooo stupid I can't help myself
Interesting debate. I think that the CR and LA systems are not the same thing, for one. I also think there should be some price to pay for a character becoming a lich - whichever way you look at it, they gain a great deal. In the case of Hama, she gets to cover many of her weaknesses (low hit points, poor saves, near death from old age) and enhance some of her strengths (+2 to all mental stats, energy immunities etc.).
These add up to a lot more than just the material cost of phylactery.
From the point of view of the other players Hama is to them clearly the most powerful characters (at least offensively) in the group. Gaining the defensive abilities of the lich as well will make her really powerful in their eyes at least.
If I were DMing this, I'd probably create a prestige class to go into that would add the powers of the lich slowly over 4-5 levels, and although caster levels would be gained in this class it would probably require you to drop at least one.
What "shell game" are you talking about?? Not sure how you come to that conclusion if his DM was in on it from the start of the campaign. And without knowing what the stats/race/etc. are of the other PC's involved. What is the STR of the barb/monk? (and GAH what a messed up class combo THAT is). What are the power levels of the rest of them? You are jumping to conclusions based on limited information, and screaming "munchkin!!" without all the facts.
The op has deliberatly gimped himself for half the game (If this even makes it to 20th level that is) for a DM approved payoff, that will certainly gain him plenty of new enemies, and new problems. I don't know about your campaign, but there are very few (as in none) lich's casually strolling around my towns and cities, or kipping down to the market for a shiny new toy. Dunno, something about an ambulatory skeleton just puts people off, who'da thunk it?
lol, the lich walking down the street does paint a picture. I actually have a player who's goal is to become a lich, and I've already told him I will support it. The party is only at 5th lvl and he knows not to expect anything until at least 11th lvl. I still don't have a solution for making it balanced, because I think the +2 CR was a very general rule Paizo put in the beastiary with all the appropriate warning signs saying 'not all monsters are created equal'
My reference to the shell game is simply that the post was originally requesting advice about the other players wanting to kill his PC. I'm not goig to re-read the threads but it seemed like a recurring theme which points to other PCs not wanting to play with respective PC. There are many possible reasons for this (to name a few) 1. The GM has failed at keeping the PCs balanced 2. The PC is annoying 3. The other PCs are unreasonable etc... My 'shell game' comment is based on this thread focusing on possibility #1, which I personally find the least likely reason.
Sounds like your DM is very nice and understanding. Allowing you to live this long. He must go out of his way not to threaten your character. I don't no what has kept you alive besides mercy. You have basically no defenses.
STR 2 makes me laugh. Sure are a one trick pony. Sure you can get in and out of the bed with the best of them. Better sleep naked though cause that winter blanket is a solid 3lbs, that with sleeping cloths your into a medium load. Wake up Fatigued much? lol. Maybe should require a STR check DC -1 to get the blanket off.
The sheer ridiculousness of the character offends. What you have going on here is the same crap that makes D&D terrible. You should switch to 4th ed. and play your WoW table top like you are looking to do. Would say you need a walking stick but i don't think you could pick it up between steps. lol. You have the same leg strength as say a person with a spinal injury who is in rehab relearning to walk.
Maybe I just believe in play a game with rules as intended over rules as written.
If I was the Barbarian/Monk(Which bothers me for a whole different set of reasons) i would argue to leave you at the next town to take up sewing like a nice little old lady should.
Damn the typos Jim!
An evil campaign..
Where PK'ing was mentioned at some point..
..and you've let them know you want to be a Lich..
o_o Yeah, I'd kill you. Hell, I'd expect to be killed if that was my character!
//
Few things to consider:
Realizing that PK'ing was not on the cards until climatic ending allowed you to gamble more so with your dump stat, extremely more so, then usual.
Of course, I'm sure you realized that other than spells, the only other physical attack of the Lich is a touch attack -- so a direct combat weakness of such a low strength can be offset somewhat with a single feat, assuming you even want to bother getting your hands dirty.
..and when/if you do become undead:
Undead are immune to damage or penalties to their physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
..which i'm sure you factored in when planning this path and weighing up the 'can my character reach Lichdom with only a Str of 2'.
I mean, it's not like you've made a series of random decisions :) You've nicely planned a path to power - and now your friends are beginning to freak out...
...so yes, this is hardly a series of unfortunate events -- it's all directly related to the decisions made early within the campaign.
Now, something you *could* do:
- Target your most easy-going friend.
- Discuss with them how you want their character to look after your phylactery. If their character is powerful you can say it's for protection which will make things more believable. If not it doesn't matter. Be sure to explain to them you're not happy with how things are within the gaming group, you're worried about your character's survival, you've had a chance to reflect and realize that, yes, you can see how a Lich character would terrify the other characters and your friends and you think that this desperate course of action will help. Hell, you hope so, you really do.
- ..ask them to keep it a secret.
- ..quietly inform your DM you're using your arcane abilities to create a fake phylactery. Only the bard has a chance of knowing/detecting otherwise.
Now kick back and enjoy the loss of tension. If your easy-going friend tells your other friends -- not a problem, you feign fear, they cackle, life goes on and you enjoy a less paranoid group.
Worse case scenario is that they attempt to destroy the phylactery - hey, it was worth a shot and maybe it bought you some time to build some defense, make the right kinda clerical friends and set up some contingencies.
Still, it's something to be getting on with!
Please note: The above 'advice' assumes that you don't mind if your friends lynch you when they find out, you're cool with everyone thinking you're a bastard and that you can handle a not-so-good situation getting much worse if certain fecal matter hits the cooling device.
..but hey, it's an evil campaign, aye? :)
ohhh ... that's nasty!
Giving him a fake phylactery (I'd booby trap it for good measure so if they talk him into destroying it ... oh I am EVIL!). Then make your real phylactery something like holy sword a handy paladin will find.
There is greater truth in humor...He shouldn't have implied that the game was centered on him, in game and out. His words stated that his character was a lynch pin to their success and he was a lynch pin to their game. As for intenions you don't know them.
As for hurting your feelings this is still the internet. You need to wear you thick skin to hang here. Paizo is pretty tame but still...
That said, mind your words as some people are very senitive. Mr. Fishy isn't one of them so you can call Mr. Fishy petty.
Yeah, one one side you got comments like "I am the lynchpin of the campaign, without me everything falls down and I own the books and have their characters sheets and they play at my house and I'll walk if the DM dares to put a level adjustment on my mega-twinked character concept of powergamyness" and on the other side RavingDork really, really cares about roleplaying.
How could anybody infer anything negative from that?
As a DM I am a bit confused by some of responses the OP has gotten. He and his DM obviously sat down and set up, from the very beginning, for this character to become a lich, or DIE. He has taken significant penelties to his stats, and roleplayed out this lack of stats, and done so in an intelligent manner. All with the stated goal, again one agreed to by his DM, to become a lich. And I see very little difference in his physical stats than from a venerable human commoner either. (Str 2, Dex 6, Con 4)
Will that make him more powerfull? Yes, absolutly. Does it make him overpowered? Nope, not at all. Again, this is something that was PLANNED. If I were running this campaign I would probably make him "sit out" a level for the other players to make up for the LA. But that is about it. And even if/when he does become a lich, his spells are still going to be the same,
Not sure if I was in his shoes if I would have gone to the extreme he has to get to that point, but from an RP perspective he certainly seems to have gone the extra mile to achieve his goal. Personally I would have opted for a Dread Necromancer build, gotten better stats (with the exception of the CHA), better spells, and still would have ended up becoming a lich.
Did you read the section I post from the PRD about the Lich, and how what a player is supposed to do is no harder than what he did. Basically all he did is what he is supposed to do, and you want to give him a cookie for it.
What "shell game" are you talking about?? Not sure how you come to that conclusion if his DM was in on it from the start of the campaign. And without knowing what the stats/race/etc. are of the other PC's involved. What is the STR of the barb/monk? (and GAH what a messed up class combo THAT is). What are the power levels of the rest of them? You are jumping to conclusions based on limited information, and screaming "munchkin!!" without all the facts.
The op has deliberatly gimped himself for half the game (If this even makes it to 20th level that is) for a DM approved payoff, that will certainly gain him plenty of new enemies, and new problems. I don't know about your campaign, but there are very few (as in none) lich's casually strolling around my towns and cities, or kipping down to the market for a shiny new toy. Dunno, something about an ambulatory skeleton just puts people off, who'da thunk it?
Did you also not read my post where the gimpings were his idea?It is explained better in that earlier post.
There are ways to disguise oneself. He can also probably get a wand of gentle repose cast.
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As a DM I am a bit confused by some of responses the OP has gotten. He and his DM obviously sat down and set up, from the very beginning, for this character to become a lich, or DIE. He has taken significant penelties to his stats, and roleplayed out this lack of stats, and done so in an intelligent manner. All with the stated goal, again one agreed to by his DM, to become a lich. And I see very little difference in his physical stats than from a venerable human commoner either. (Str 2, Dex 6, Con 4)
Will that make him more powerfull? Yes, absolutly. Does it make him overpowered? Nope, not at all. Again, this is something that was PLANNED. If I were running this campaign I would probably make him "sit out" a level for the other players to make up for the LA. But that is about it. And even if/when he does become a lich, his spells are still going to be the same,
Not sure if I was in his shoes if I would have gone to the extreme he has to get to that point, but from an RP perspective he certainly seems to have gone the extra mile to achieve his goal. Personally I would have opted for a Dread Necromancer build, gotten better stats (with the exception of the CHA), better spells, and still would have ended up becoming a lich.
Here's the thing...the DM is under duress. RD may not be actively holding the game resources over the DM's head, but the fact that he does have them all does give him leverage over the DM. It makes the DM MUCH more likely to say yes to requests like can I have this uber template with no LA. And if the DM honestly thinks that a venerable caster getting the lich template isn't gonna break the game horrible in a game that has a barbarian monk (I don't even need to see the stats for that one...)...much less for NO cost other then the 120k gold, then the DM should have his DM card revoked. So either RD is holding things over the DM head (actively or not)...or the DM is a moron. The more RD defends himself, the more it becomes clear that there is SOMETHING going on horribly wrong.