These are my stats as they stand now. I also have a CONSULAR IMP familiar who carries a few healing potions. Looking at it now, I am not entirely sure what they are so afraid of. I don't see a "kill entire party" spell on there anywhere. Highest spell DC appears to be 23.
Female venerable human sorcerer 9
NE Medium humanoid (human)
Init –2; Senses Perception +1 (familiar’s alertness)
Languages Common, Infernal, Sylvan
AC 8, touch 8, flat-footed 8 (–2 Dex)
hp 32 (9 HD); CMD 8
Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +7
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee +1 flaming returning dagger +1 (1d4–3 plus 1d6 fire/19-20)
Ranged +1 flaming returning dagger +3 (1d4–3 plus 1d6 fire/19-20)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +4; CMB +0
Combat Gear antitoxin (8), arcane spell scrolls of baleful polymorph (2), arcane spell scroll of teleport, black adder venom (3), dark reaver powder (3), large scorpion venom (20), oil of taggit (30), potion of cure light wounds, potion of invisibility, potion of mage armor, wand of knock (48 charges)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 9th; Concentration +17 or +21 with combat casting):
4th-level (6/day) – bestow curse, dimension door, remove curse, summon monster IV
3rd-level (8/day) – deep slumber, dispel magic, gaseous form, hold person
2nd-level (8/day) – blindness/deafness, command undead, invisibility, mirror image, shatter
1st-level (9/day) – charm person, disguise self, feather fall, identify, silent image, ventriloquism
0-level (at will) – dancing lights, daze, detect poison, ghost sound, mage hand, mending, open/close, prestidigitation
Abilities Str 2 (–4), Dex 6 (–2), Con 10 (+0), Int 12 (+1), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 27 (+8)
SQ Arcane Bond (familiar), Bloodline (arcane), Bloodline Spells, Cantrips, Metamagic Adept 2/day
Feats Alertness (B) (only with nearby familiar), Combat Casting, Eschew Materials (B), Greater Spell Focus (enchantment) (B), Improved Familiar, Silent Spell, Spell Focus (enchantment, necromancy (B)), Still Spell
Skills Bluff +20, Craft (alchemy +13), Diplomacy +17, Handle Animal +9, Intimidate +12, Knowledge (arcana +5, nature +5), Linguistics +2, Perception +1 (+3 with familiar), Sense Motive +1 (+3 with familiar), Spellcraft +13, Use Magic Device +15
Possessions combat gear plus +1 flaming returning dagger, bracelet of adaption (grants constant endure elements), chalk (10 pieces), disguise kit (8 uses, kept by Maynard), flint and steel, gold bracelets (5, value unknown), headband of alluring charisma +2, message book (as sending stone), ring of animal friendship, ring of sustenance, rings (4, value unknown), small whistle, smoking pipe, tender (27,155gp, 5sp), tindertwigs (10), tobacco (1 lb.), vials (58)
Encumbrance light 6 lb., medium 13 lb., heavy 20 lb.; Weight Carried 3 lb. (not including disguise kit or tender)
It's probably worth noting that Hama has been traveling with the other PCs for MONTHS of in-game time. She has helped them win over numerous tribes (centaurs, gnolls, halflings, human desert nomads, kobolds, orcs) as well as powerful monsters (a huge green dragon, hag covey, sphinx). Additionally she helped them assassinate key leaders in an annoying LG nation that, for some reason, wanted to sacrifice us to their gods without provocation. She also helped them escape numerous binds such as casting gaseous form on party members when said LG nation captured us, or summoning air elementals to suck up ant swarms the party wasn't prepared to handle. She has also acted to protect the party's interest in the long run (such as by ensuring that the new allies are always more loyal to us than they are the regent).
It's widely known that venerable Hama is near death and that she seeks lichdom. Maybe that is what they fear.
@Ravingdork, has it occured to you that they are telling you this so that you DO take out their characters? That they might want to start afresh? Just mentioning it as a possibility ...
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These are my stats as they stand now. I also have a CONSULAR IMP familiar who carries a few healing potions. Looking at it now, I am not entirely sure what they are so afraid of. I don't see a "kill entire party" spell on there anywhere. Highest spell DC appears to be 23.
Female venerable human sorcerer 9
NE Medium humanoid (human)
Init –2; Senses Perception +1 (familiar’s alertness)
Languages Common, Infernal, Sylvan
AC 8, touch 8, flat-footed 8 (–2 Dex)
hp 32 (9 HD); CMD 8
Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +7
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee +1 flaming returning dagger +1 (1d4–3 plus 1d6 fire/19-20)
Ranged +1 flaming returning dagger +3 (1d4–3 plus 1d6 fire/19-20)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +4; CMB +0
Combat Gear antitoxin (8), arcane spell scrolls of baleful polymorph (2), arcane spell scroll of teleport, black adder venom (3), dark reaver powder (3), large scorpion venom (20), oil of taggit (30), potion of cure light wounds, potion of invisibility, potion of mage armor, wand of knock (48 charges)Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 9th; Concentration +17 or +21 with combat casting):
4th-level (6/day) – bestow curse, dimension door, remove curse, summon monster IV
3rd-level (8/day) – deep slumber, dispel magic, gaseous form, hold person
2nd-level (8/day) – blindness/deafness, command undead, invisibility, mirror image, shatter
1st-level (9/day) – charm person, disguise self, feather fall, identify, silent image, ventriloquism
0-level (at will) – dancing lights, daze, detect poison, ghost sound, mage hand, mending, open/close, prestidigitationAbilities Str 2 (–4), Dex 6 (–2), Con 10 (+0), Int 12 (+1), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 27 (+8)
SQ Arcane Bond (familiar), Bloodline (arcane), Bloodline Spells, Cantrips, Metamagic Adept 2/day
Feats...
As a DM, I would make you require a wheelchair, rickshaw, piggyback everywhere you go with 2 strength. You are already at a medium load with your dagger and clothing. Not to mention your dozens of doses of poison and the like. How are you getting from place to place at this point seriously. You have your encumbrance ALL wrong too... that dagger ALONE weighs 3 pounds, when you are that weak you have to count everything on you, including 5 pounds for clothing, food, water, the flint and tinder, not to mention the several dozen poison vials you left off the encumbrance somehow.
Was this the same character you planned on trying to body hop with Magic Jar with? If so I hope you find a way of making that switch permanent and fast.Marching with an army would make up for most of these things but I personally would make you pay with every action for choosing to have 2 strength. Such as when you go to wake up in the morning, you have to have help getting out of bed, and when it rains you literally would collapse from the added weight on your clothes.
In an evil campaign, I would be hard pressed to NOT find a reason to kill this character off. My suggestion would be to print off a new character sheet. Also, what kind of rolling system did you use? To end up with that much Cha by level 9
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Personally, playing a game where I'm more worried about fellow player characters than the enemies just doesn't float my boat. That's not to say it doesn't work, just that it's not my bag.
But what I don't think works at all is when people in the campaign have different ideas about what sort of player interaction is acceptable. If one person is expecting no pvp and someone crosses that bound feelings get hurt and people get angry. It's just all around bad for the game.
Seems to me like the original posters group never came to an understanding about these sort of issues.
Personally, playing a game where I'm more worried about fellow player characters than the enemies just doesn't float my boat. That's not to say it doesn't work, just that it's not my bag.
But what I don't think works at all is when people in the campaign have different ideas about what sort of player interaction is acceptable. If one person is expecting no pvp and someone crosses that bound feelings get hurt and people get angry. It's just all around bad for the game.
Seems to me like the original posters group never came to an understanding about these sort of issues.
That's a great point, and something (Ravingdork) should probably sit down and discuss with the players or DM.
Unless such a conversation would be beyond the realms of maturity for the group...in which case OP will have to keep their ear to the ground and adapt as they can.
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But really if people go in expecting to burn through Characters and are able to enjoy a campaign where the PCs kill each other then, by all means that's great.
But if some people aren't expecting that...then yeah that's when issues arise and the in-game stuff starts to really hurt out of game relationships.
Make sure everyone's on the same page.
As a DM, I would make you require a wheelchair, rickshaw, piggyback everywhere you go with 2 strength. You are already at a medium load with your dagger and clothing. Not to mention your dozens of doses of poison and the like. How are you getting from place to place at this point seriously. You have your encumbrance ALL wrong too... that dagger ALONE weighs 3 pounds, when you are that weak you have to count everything on you, including 5 pounds for clothing, food, water, the flint and tinder, not to mention the several dozen poison vials you left off the encumbrance somehow.
Was this the same character you planned on trying to body hop with Magic Jar with? If so I hope you find a way of making that switch permanent and fast.Marching with an army would make up for most of these things but I personally would make you pay with every action for choosing to have 2 strength. Such as when you go to wake up in the morning, you have to have help getting out of bed, and when it rains you literally would collapse from the added weight on your clothes.
In an evil campaign, I would be hard pressed to NOT find a reason to kill this character off. My suggestion would be to print off a new character sheet. Also, what kind of rolling system did you use? To end up with that much Cha by level 9
Daggers weigh only one pound, not three. Clothes (at least your first set) and vials are effectively weightless. In fact, most of the equipment she carries doesn't have a listed weight. even if we assume some of the homebrew flavor stuff (like her pipe) weighs her down, that only really adds about two more pounds (for approximately five total).
In any case, it won't be long before I get overland flight and I can simply hover everywhere like the library ghost.
And yes, this is the character that will be getting magic jar next level, usable 5/day. With its long duration, that is effectively permanent when you use multiple castings to extend the duration for well over 24 hours. All I'd have to worry about is avoiding dispel effects and protecting my helpless body.
You did agree to play in an evil campaign where this sort of thing is more common...
Actually, we all agreed as a group at the start of the campaign (GM included) that any PVP actions, if any, would be held off until the climatic end game. We are no where near that point, however. If they kill me without good cause, they are reneging on the agreement (that the GM supervised and will likely/hopefully enforce).
Daggers weigh only one pound, not three. Clothes (at least your first set) and vials are effectively weightless. In fact, most of the equipment she carries doesn't have a listed weight. even if we assume some of the homebrew flavor stuff (like her pipe) weighs her down, that only really adds about two more pounds (for approximately five total).
Nope, sorry, clothes weigh in at 5lbs in Pathfinder, you no longer get the first set free. That gives you ten total. You make Mr Burns from The Simpsons look like muscle man ...
And yes, this is the character that will be getting magic jar next level, usable 5/day. With its long duration, that is effectively permanent when you use multiple castings to extend the duration for well over 24 hours. All I'd have to worry about is avoiding dispel effects and protecting my helpless body.
That ... could be problematical if your body is nowhere near you.
You did agree to play in an evil campaign where this sort of thing is more common...Actually, we all agreed as a group at the start of the campaign (GM included) that any PVP actions, if any, would be held off until the climatic end game. We are no where near that point, however. If they kill me without good cause, they are reneging on the agreement (that the GM supervised and will likely/hopefully enforce).
Which will be a situation that leaves few people happy, frankly.
So ... how DID you get those stats?
So ... how DID you get those stats?
25 point buy as per the epic option in the core book. Oh, and I am also venerable which applies an additional -6 to all physical stats and a +3 to all mental stats. I am literally racing my own biological clock towards lichdom (or death, if I lose). Our GM rolled 2d4 to see how many years of game time we have before Hama dies of natural causes. We've gone through nearly 1 year in the game already.
And she might have 2 lbs. of clothes. She's an old hag in rags, so we can use the weight of a peasant's outfit.
So ... how DID you get those stats?25 point buy as per the epic option in the core book. Oh, and I am also venerable which applies an additional -6 to all physical stats and a +3 to all mental stats. I am literally racing my own biological clock towards lichdom (or death, if I lose). Our GM rolled 2d4 to see how many years of game time we have before Hama dies of natural causes. We've gone through nearly 1 year in the game already.
And she might have 2 lbs. of clothes. She's an old hag in rags, so we can use the weight of a peasant's outfit.
Yeah ... I can see that. I can also see that time is on the other player's side, I mean, they just have to wait a few years ... unless you make lichdom.
Me too. But I find it's far less common when people don't have an in-game justification for being a douchebag.
You've had good characters killing each other in their sleep? Wow...just wow. :-)
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I HATE evil campaigns (any evil game i play in I make a LN character and ENFORCE NEUTRALITY) Im about to play in a Kingmaker campaign< and when the DM said it was going to be a Evil campaign i about left. why the Frag to i want to come to a already messed up land and spread further wrongness? so im playing LN and bringing strict but fair law to the land (any evil character screwing up will have to answer to me and my eilodon)
Threaten them back! all but one of them, and tell him hes okay and that your guys could be allies. pick someone who hasn't threatened you. cast buffs on him and him alone until the apologize for "their characters throwing threatening glances your way" (so even if they said it out of character, it was still said and if not in jest then they need to make bluff checks to hide there contempt of you)
you've ran into the endgame battle already because they know that if they don't kill you now< being a sorcerer, you will far out-power them in the end fight (so kill you before you get really nasty spells)
I deal with real life badguys every day, why do i want my free time involved with them too?
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.....side note< as a gm i would have already have one shotted you with a shadow....i wouldnt be able to help myself ^^ (shadows pours from the floor and walls around you. one attacks each of you. i roll a 5 to hit you (5+4 touch i hit) now i roll 1d4 str drain (2 your str is 0 and you are dead and coming back in a couple rounds as a shadow)
i like interesting builds but when they are sometimes too stackmastered...
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You've had good characters killing each other in their sleep? Wow...just wow. :-)
Me too. But I find it's far less common when people don't have an in-game justification for being a douchebag.
I have had a person playing a 'good' character backstab a new party member in a poorly thought out act of self preservation. When I can avoid it I don't play with him anymore.
It's widely known that venerable Hama is near death and that she seeks lichdom. Maybe that is what they fear.
That would be a good in-game reason to fear your character, but as many have pointed out, there is a difference between dramatic RP and being a douche to your fellow players.
If they had approached you with "so we've been thinking, that in-game, our characters are disturbed by Hama's stated goals. Would you be cool with ..." That would be an example of them knowing that surprise ganking your character is a delicate matter.
Instead saying "our characters are thinking of killing your character. Whadaya gonna do about it?" is throwing down the gauntlet, meaning whether or not you want to play as a team, they intend to murder your toon. Not cool IMHO. Tell your GM that if they pull anything, its a deal-breaker and you walk.
Tell your GM that if they pull anything, its a deal-breaker and you walk.
I think I just might. I take a lot of pride in having been able to get this character from 1st to 9th. (With low AC, low CMD, low saves, and low hit points, that's not an easy thing to do!) It is my dream to see her survive to 11th and become a lich. At that point most of her weaknesses will simply disappear.
She will go from ~39 hit points at 11th-level to ~127 as a lich! By the time the party is 20th-level (one of our goals as a group) she will have more hit points than anyone else in the party (at ~370) and will be able to maintain a huge dragon form 24/7 (through sheer number of 9th-level spell slots and excessive use of shapechange). Hama was inspired my Maleficient as well as several other literary witches. :D
.....side note< as a gm i would have already have one shotted you with a shadow....i wouldnt be able to help myself ^^ (shadows pours from the floor and walls around you. one attacks each of you. i roll a 5 to hit you (5+4 touch i hit) now i roll 1d4 str drain (2 your str is 0 and you are dead and coming back in a couple rounds as a shadow)
i like interesting builds but when they are sometimes too stackmastered...
Why do you think I took Command Undead? I would charm the lead shadow and by extension have control over all his minion shadows. :)
Yes, but how does your DM plan on handling the change to lichdom?
In 3.5 it would have been a whopping great level adjustment that would have left you 11th level for a very long time. In Pathfinder it's a bit trickier. It should, however, be consumate top the gains you get out of it, which are considerable.
I have a method I proposed ages back for monster characters that used feats instead; there is a progression in there for becoming a lich ...
Yes, but how does your DM plan on handling the change to lichdom?
In 3.5 it would have been a whopping great level adjustment that would have left you 11th level for a very long time. In Pathfinder it's a bit trickier. It should, however, be consumate top the gains you get out of it, which are considerable.
I have a method I proposed ages back for monster characters that used feats instead; there is a progression in there for becoming a lich ...
Considering Hama had to bring down a goodly empire's leaders for an ancient evil dragon so that it would hand over the secrets of summoning a consular imp...considering she had to commit several heinous deeds (including sacrificing her familiar--an extension of her own soul) to summon said consular imp familiar...considering that she had to agree to exchange her own soul to higher powers after her death (or permanent undead destruction) in order to get her familiar to teach her the secrets of lichdom...considering I as a player have had to go the last 5 levels without holding onto ANY cool new magic items in order to raise the financial resources needed for creating a phylactery...considering Hama will have to take off from adventuring for ~6 months just to make the phylactery...CONSIDERING ALL THAT, DON'T YOU THINK THAT IS BALANCE ENOUGH?
If the GM decides to then STILL dock me a couple levels after I have crippled myself for over half of Hama's career, after I have jumped through so many hoops, after I have struggled tooth and nail to not only get Hama to succeed in her adventures, but to merely survive them...then I'll likely walk.
A GM should NEVER punish a player just because they invested in something potent--that defeats the point of the game (having fun through advancement and challenges). If there is a balance issue, than it is better to adjust the challenges to suit or otherwise bring the other PCs up to par.
Yes, but how does your DM plan on handling the change to lichdom?
In 3.5 it would have been a whopping great level adjustment that would have left you 11th level for a very long time. In Pathfinder it's a bit trickier. It should, however, be consumate top the gains you get out of it, which are considerable.
I have a method I proposed ages back for monster characters that used feats instead; there is a progression in there for becoming a lich ...
Considering my character had to sweet talk an ancient evil dragon into handing over the secrets of summoning a consular imp...considering she had to commit several heinous deeds (including sacrificing her familiar--an extension of her own soul) to summon said consular imp familiar...considering that she had to agree to exchange her own soul to higher powers after her death or destruction in order to get her familiar to teach her the secrets of lichdom...considering I as a player have had to go the last 5 levels without holding onto ANY cool new magic items in order to get up financial resources needed for creating a phylactery...considering I will have to take off from adventuring for ~6 months just to make the phylactery...CONSIDERING ALL THAT, DON'T YOU THINK THAT IS BALANCE ENOUGH?
If the GM decides to then STILL dock me a couple levels after I have crippled myself for over half of Hama's career and I have struggled tooth and nail to not only get her to succeed in her adventures, but to merely survive them...then I'll likely walk.
A GM should never punish a player just because they invested in something. If there is a balance issue, than it is better to adjust the challenges to suit or otherwise bring the other PCs up to par.
Every other Lich had to go through similar things though.
From the PRD
The quest to become a lich is a lengthy one. While construction of the magical phylactery to contain the spellcaster's soul is a critical component, a prospective lich must also learn the secrets of transferring his soul into the receptacle and of preparing his body for the transformation into undeath, neither of which are simple tasks. Further complicating the ritual is the fact that no two bodies or souls are exactly alike—a ritual that works for one spellcaster might simply kill another or drive him insane. The exact methods for each spellcaster's transformation are left to the GM's discretion, but should involve expenditures of hundreds of thousands of gold pieces, numerous deadly adventures, and a large number of difficult skill checks over the course of months, years, or decades.
As you can see you have done no more than what you should have had to do. Nowhere does it say making it extremely difficult should give you a pass. It is supposed to be difficult. You chose to be a lich and take on the responsibilities that went with it. I don't think RP'ing means you get to ignore the penalties. IMHO.
Yes, but how does your DM plan on handling the change to lichdom?
In 3.5 it would have been a whopping great level adjustment that would have left you 11th level for a very long time. In Pathfinder it's a bit trickier. It should, however, be consumate top the gains you get out of it, which are considerable.
I have a method I proposed ages back for monster characters that used feats instead; there is a progression in there for becoming a lich ...
Considering my character had to sweet talk an ancient evil dragon into handing over the secrets of summoning a consular imp...considering she had to commit several heinous deeds (including sacrificing her familiar--an extension of her own soul) to summon said consular imp familiar...considering that she had to agree to exchange her own soul to higher powers after her death or destruction in order to get her familiar to teach her the secrets of lichdom...considering I as a player have had to go the last 5 levels without holding onto ANY cool new magic items in order to get up financial resources needed for creating a phylactery...considering I will have to take off from adventuring for ~6 months just to make the phylactery...CONSIDERING ALL THAT, DON'T YOU THINK THAT IS BALANCE ENOUGH?
If the GM decides to then STILL dock me a couple levels after I have crippled myself for over half of Hama's career and I have struggled tooth and nail to not only get her to succeed in her adventures, but to merely survive them...then I'll likely walk.
A GM should never punish a player just because they invested in something. If there is a balance issue, than it is better to adjust the challenges to suit or otherwise bring the other PCs up to par.
Lichs have huge advantages as player characters. Those have to be paid for one way or another. Yes, you have had to pay for a phylactery ... and? You get to be practically unkillable for it! You get total immunity to any and all mental effects. You no longer age, have immunity to energy types, get damage resistance, massive hit points, a whole shed-load of stuff. It doesn't come cheap, in gold-piece value or character value.
Back in 3.5 you would have to lose four levels at least for becoming a lich. I admire your dedication, but you just don't get these things for free and I am not talking about the cost of the phylactery here.
Still, all of that is up to your DM, I'm just offering a bit of 'devil's advocate' here.
Every other Lich had to go through similar things though.
From the PRD
The quest to become a lich is a lengthy one. While construction of the magical phylactery to contain the spellcaster's soul is a critical component, a prospective lich must also learn the secrets of transferring his soul into the receptacle and of preparing his body for the transformation into undeath, neither of which are simple tasks. Further complicating the ritual is the fact that no two bodies or souls are exactly alike—a ritual that works for one spellcaster might simply kill another or drive him insane. The exact methods for each spellcaster's transformation are left to the GM's discretion, but should involve expenditures of hundreds of thousands of gold pieces, numerous deadly adventures, and a large number of difficult skill checks over the course of months, years, or decades.As you can see you have done no more than what you should have had to do. Nowhere does it say making it extremely difficult should give you a pass. It is supposed to be difficult. You chose to be a lich and take on the responsibilities that went with it. I don't think RP'ing means you get to ignore the penalties. IMHO.
You are absolutely right but for the roleplaying part. I have had to invest a lot of mechanics to (maybe) get where I am going. It's not all just roleplay. I have spent RESOURCES. To get nothing in return (to be delayed progression for balance sake) is to defeat the whole point!
In any event, neither of you have shown me any rules that say I should lose levels for having become a lich. All I see are personal opinions and holdover ideas from v3.5 (which didn't work even then).
Lichs have huge advantages as player characters. Those have to be paid for one way or another. Yes, you have had to pay for a phylactery ... and? You get to be practically unkillable for it! You get total immunity to any and all mental effects. You no longer age, have immunity to energy types, get damage resistance, massive hit points, a whole shed-load of stuff. It doesn't come cheap, in gold-piece value or character value.Back in 3.5 you would have to lose four levels at least for becoming a lich. I admire your dedication, but you just don't get these things for free and I am not talking about the cost of the phylactery here.
They do have advantages, but not as many as people think they do. First, not being able to be killed isn't a very powerful ability if you can still be stopped or incapacitated via most of the same methods. Immortality is far weaker than, say, having a good action economy (such as a powerful animal companion or eidolon by your side). The former does nothing for you on your adventures except to ensure that you keep having them. The latter, on the other hand, may well help you succeed in your adventures. At best, immortality like that of a lich's does nothing but save the party some resurrection gold.
It's like being awarded a castle. You can indeed be considered powerful because you are a master of a castle (and all that, that entails). However, when it comes to impacting your adventures, it is likely little more than background flavor.
Much of what a lich gets (various special attacks, ability boosts, effective energy immunity) can be had by a normal character with 120,000gp to spend.
Some things (the long list of immunities) are indeed advantageous to have, but that's what all the investment and hardship (in-game and out) is for. I'm arguing that it is already relatively (but not perfectly) balanced without having the need for delaying level progression.
Still, all of that is up to your DM, I'm just offering a bit of 'devil's advocate' here.
I've been known to do that. Please know that I am responding in kind. I have faith that my GM will do what it takes to allow her group to continue having fun regardless of what is discussed here.
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Without reading all the arguments back and forth, I'm reminded of the origin story in Order of the Stick for the resident lich villain. After his transformation, there was definitely a moment where the equally evil associate who helped him transform had some serious doubts about whether this was a huge mistake.
Evil is one thing. I've seen many evil characters portrayed brilliantly in fiction because despite their evil, they still had a semblance of humanity. Becoming a lich would erase that humanity entirely, leaving only an evil shell filled with incredible power. Whatever the motivations of the players, even a group of evil characters with a long and cooperative history together wouldn't be wrong to consider killing an ally who wanted to shed all that made them human to become a lich. It's not about whether the character has earned the right to such power, it's about whether a soulless shell with unspeakable power is going to be a serious threat to anyone that gets in its way.
Of course, that sort of conflict could be a lot of fun for players in the right setting, but if it was me, I'd prefer to let the DM NPC my former character as the new villain of the campaign and play someone new. Being the bad guy is fun when the bad guy isn't being targeted for assassination. When the bad guy becomes a target, and rightfully so, it might be time to step back and join everyone else in what sounds like a kickin adventure hook for a new campaign.
You are absolutely right. Still, neither of you have shown me any rules that say I should lose levels for having become a lich.
No, and I think the level adjustment system is a bad way of balancing the powers. That said, the Lich given on page 188 of the bestiary is CR12 but only caster level 11th. The system I used for monster classes took feats rather then levels to achieve, which in Pathfinder isn't too bad a sacrifice at all. You can get most of the lich abilities quite quickly, especially if you used a prestige class to do it.
Edit: Just seen your edited reply, and others. I'm sure it'll work out OK, as you have pretty much designed your character to become a lich right from the start and your DM knows it. I can also understand why your fellow players are all a bit worried ... I would be ...
Depending on how one interprets the monsters as characters rules and the Lich Template, you would either need to sacrifice one or two levels for it.
My personal thought? It would cost two levels (which your companions should earn during your 6 months spent earning the template), and then you will get one level back at some point later (I would recommend level 15, that way you shoot back up and grab 8th level spells and have 16 sorcerer levels while your companions are level 17)
That's how I see it anyway.
If the GM could not wait for my character to make the phylactery for in-game reasons, and the party went on adventuring without my character during those six months, than I would absolutely agree with and abide by your logic (had you been GM). I would even consider the bonus level rather generous considering the Pathfinder rules do not allow any opportunity to play "XP catch up" short of adventuring separately.
However, I still don't agree with some of the logic that is often used to justify level adjustment types of systems.
Evil is one thing. I've seen many evil characters portrayed brilliantly in fiction because despite their evil, they still had a semblance of humanity. Becoming a lich would erase that humanity entirely, leaving only an evil shell filled with incredible power. Whatever the motivations of the players, even a group of evil characters with a long and cooperative history together wouldn't be wrong to consider killing an ally who wanted to shed all that made them human to become a lich. It's not about whether the character has earned the right to such power, it's about whether a soulless shell with unspeakable power is going to be a serious threat to anyone that gets in its way.
Of course, that sort of conflict could be a lot of fun for players in the right setting, but if it was me, I'd prefer to let the DM NPC my former character as the new villain of the campaign and play someone new. Being the bad guy is fun when the bad guy isn't being targeted for assassination. When the bad guy becomes a target, and rightfully so, it might be time to step back and join everyone else in what sounds like a kickin adventure hook for a new campaign.
That's an interesting take on it.
points to counter me
<happy voice>*
The "advice" from PRD which is basically what I printed says it should be hard, but it does not say if you give a player a hard time it should make the lichdom be at no additional cost. The other liches(NPC) had to do similar things. Should DM's just knock their CR down because they had a hard time also?In short you I guess what I am saying is that you have done no more than what would be expected of any caster that wanted to become a lich, once again IMHO.
*I had to put that since tone of voice is not always known online.
[A bunch of in-game stuff]...CONSIDERING ALL THAT, DON'T YOU THINK THAT IS BALANCE ENOUGH?If the GM decides to then STILL dock me a couple levels after I have crippled myself for over half of Hama's career, after I have jumped through so many hoops, after I have struggled tooth and nail to not only get Hama to succeed in her adventures, but to merely survive them...then I'll likely walk.
A GM should NEVER punish a player just because they invested in something potent--that defeats the point of the game (having fun through advancement and challenges). If there is a balance issue, than it is better to adjust the challenges to suit or otherwise bring the other PCs up to par.
Absolutely not. In-game quests, roleplaying, etc, should never be used to balance out mechanical aspects. This has been a design paradigm since 3.0.
A GM should NEVER punish a player just because they invested in something potent--that defeats the point of the game (having fun through advancement and challenges). If there is a balance issue, than it is better to adjust the challenges to suit or otherwise bring the other PCs up to par.
You aren't being punished. In fact, if your GM is allowing you to pursue lichdom for your PC you are being rewarded with the opportunity to pursue a character path not normally available to PC's. In any case, becoming a lich will provide your character with numerous mechanical benefits, and those benefits have to be balanced out with some sort of a level adjustment.
Absolutely not. In-game quests, roleplaying, etc, should never be used to balance out mechanical aspects. This has been a design paradigm since 3.0.
But it wasn't all in-game quests. A significant amount of personal character resources have been invested (or will be invested rather) to make this character work--or do you think going more than half your career without proper gear, AC, saves, HP, etc., is not some kind of investment?
Everybody else is crafting, collecting, or buying cool magic items to enhance their characters. I am not. I am putting everything into the hope of a phylactery. Saving up for a phylactery is NOT merely "roleplaying," it is "allocation of resources."
You aren't being punished. In fact, if your GM is allowing you to pursue lichdom for your PC you are being rewarded with the opportunity to pursue a character path not normally available to PC's.
You're right. I am not being punished (as all we've spoken about these last few posts are just theoretical discussion) and having the mere option of being a lich is nothing less than a privilege.
In any case, becoming a lich will provide your character with numerous mechanical benefits, and those benefits have to be balanced out with some sort of a level adjustment.
This is where we disagree I think. I don't think Level Adjustment should exist at all. The loose guidelines we have in the Bestiary now work just fine (in large part because they basically say to "eyeball it" just like magical item creation.
Face it: Level adjustment doesn't work now and has never worked in the past. Monster PCs always came up too powerful or too weak. Never balanced.
My GM may well not do anything at all and continue progressing the entire party level by level as she has been (this is what I'm hoping for), but if she has something different in mind, then we will sit down and discuss it.
Absolutely not. In-game quests, roleplaying, etc, should never be used to balance out mechanical aspects. This has been a design paradigm since 3.0.But it wasn't all in-game quests. A significant amount of personal character resources have been invested (or will be invested rather) to make this character work--or do you think going more than half your career without proper gear, AC, saves, HP, etc., is not some kind of investment?
Everybody else is crafting, collecting, or buying cool magic items to enhance their characters. I am not. I am putting everything into the hope of a phylactery. Saving up for a phylactery is NOT merely "roleplaying," it is "allocation of resources."
You aren't being punished. In fact, if your GM is allowing you to pursue lichdom for your PC you are being rewarded with the opportunity to pursue a character path not normally available to PC's.You're right. I am not being punished (as all we've spoken about these last few posts are just theoretical discussion) and having the mere option of being a lich is nothing less than a privilege.
In any case, becoming a lich will provide your character with numerous mechanical benefits, and those benefits have to be balanced out with some sort of a level adjustment.This is where we disagree I think. I don't think Level Adjustment should exist at all. The loose guidelines we have in the Bestiary now work just fine (in large part because they basically say to "eyeball it" just like magical item creation.
Face it: Level adjustment doesn't work now and has never worked in the past. Monster PCs always came up too powerful or too weak. Never balanced.
My GM may well not do anything at all and continue progressing the entire party level by level as she has been (this is what I'm hoping for), but if she has something different in mind, then we will sit down and discuss it.
Getting the phylactery is a part of being a lich. You can't use the fact that you had to save for it as an reason to not get the level adjustment. You don't have to do it at level 11. You also chose to have those low hit points, which are party from being so old. You could have played a "normal" aged character and the deadline could have been that you had an incurable disease. You could have also not put the deadline in motion by just being willing to wait past 11th level so you could have proper gear.
Point: You should not get rewarded with bypassing the level adjustment because you made things harder than they have to be. If I make a mechanically inferior _____ to my friend and RP it well should I get extra feats and so on?
slightly off topic: Level adjustment should exist or monsters and templates should be completely off limits. I don't agree to using the LA's in the books. Figuring out an LA adjustment is a fine art, and no flat formula will work for it. I would also have it bought off since the abilities that matter at low levels dont matter so much at higher ones.
PS: Still :)
As for your original question, I would ignore them. You cannot metagame their motives. Have fun with the extra danger, knowing that every time your character goes to sleep, she may not wake up. It sounds exciting.
You will be tempted to make contingency plans, but honestly, her INT of 12 means she shouldn't be Batman in the plan department. I see too many players use game mechanics to come up with plans that truthfully, should be beyond their characters limits. Your character being a focus for the group makes sense with her high charisma.
Sorry, didn't mean to anger you into sarcasm. Be tactical sure, but NO they shouldn't be as tactical as any character with an 18 INT. Unfortunately our own intelligence bleeds into the characters and so as responsible gamers you need to ask yourself occasionally if something is reasonable.
Sorcerers have only so many spells known, they should be extremely tactical with them, as that's all they have and they have had experience with them. I could argue the first time they use a spell, it should be different but others would argue opposite. I didn't want to distract from the original topic. Just tired of seeing good players play intelligence poorly one way or another.
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I think these other players should be deciding what to do in game with their in game characters' minds and beliefs and behaviors, instead of their own metagaming ones...
I also think it should depend on if they are chaotic or lawful. They decided at character creation how their characters think, it'll take a lot for them to think otherwise.
It's like being in a jury and you're being told to disregard the previous statement as it's inadmissible in court. Your friends are just throwing all this damning evidence out there that's not admissible to their own characters, and if they act on it, I'd call bullshit.
I see it the other way. They could have done it all in character and surprised the original poster. Instead they have actually benefited the poster because they have out of game shown their hand. Knowing is better than not knowing I think.
Chaotic or Lawful is huge. No matter what deal you have, or what logical argument you can make for keeping you, some alignments can decide to do whatever. Thus, the added chaos. I agree with the above poster on this point for sure.
As for your "buddies" trying to kill , hopefully the DM bails you out if they really try it.
This is where we disagree I think. I don't think Level Adjustment should exist at all. The loose guidelines we have in the Bestiary now work just fine (in large part because they basically say to "eyeball it" just like magical item creation.Face it: Level adjustment doesn't work now and has never worked in the past. Monster PCs always came up too powerful or too weak. Never balanced.
From the SRD:
CR: Same as the base creature + 2.
Alignment: Any evil.
Type: The creature's type changes to undead. Do not recalculate BAB, saves, or skill ranks.
Senses: A lich gains darkvision 60 ft.
Armor Class: A lich has a +5 natural armor bonus or the base creature's natural armor bonus, whichever is better.
Hit Dice: Change all of the creature's racial Hit Dice to d8s. All Hit Dice derived from class levels remain unchanged. As undead, liches use their Charisma modifiers to determine bonus hit points (instead of Constitution).
Defensive Abilities: A lich gains channel resistance +4, DR 15/bludgeoning and magic, and immunity to cold and electricity (in addition to those granted by its undead traits). The lich also gains the following defensive ability.
Rejuvenation (Su): When a lich is destroyed, its phylactery (which is generally hidden by the lich in a safe place far from where it chooses to dwell) immediately begins to rebuild the undead spellcaster's body nearby. This process takes 1d10 days—if the body is destroyed before that time passes, the phylactery merely starts the process anew. After this time passes, the lich wakens fully healed (albeit without any gear it left behind on its old body), usually with a burning need for revenge against those who previously destroyed it.
Melee Attack: A lich has a touch attack that it can use once per round as a natural weapon. A lich fighting without weapons uses its natural weapons (if it has any) in addition to its touch attack (which is treated as a primary natural weapon that replaces one claw or slam attack, if the creature has any). A lich armed with a weapon uses its weapons normally, and can use its touch attack as a secondary natural weapon.
Damage: A lich's touch attack uses negative energy to deal 1d8 points of damage to living creatures + 1 point of damage per 2 Hit Dice possessed by the lich. As negative energy, this damage can be used to heal undead creatures. A lich can take a full-round action to infuse itself with this energy, healing damage as if it had used its touch attack against itself.
Special Attacks: A lich gains the two special attacks described below. Save DCs are equal to 10 + 1/2 lich's HD + lich's Cha modifier unless otherwise noted.
Fear Aura (Su): Creatures of less than 5 HD in a 60-foot radius that look at the lich must succeed on a Will save or become frightened. Creatures with 5 HD or more must succeed at a Will save or be shaken for a number of rounds equal to the lich's Hit Dice. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same lich's aura for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.
Paralyzing Touch (Su): Any living creature a lich hits with its touch attack must succeed on a Fortitude save or be permanently paralyzed. Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim (see the bestow curse spell description, with a DC equal to the lich's save DC). The effect cannot be dispelled. Anyone paralyzed by a lich seems dead, though a DC 20 Perception check or a DC 15 Heal check reveals that the victim is still alive.
Abilities: Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2. Being undead, a lich has no Constitution score.
So you are proposing you should gain ALL of those benefits, the HUGE bump in hp (conveniently working around the low CON score for your character), the natural armor, stat bonuses, DR, and other special abilities at no level adjustment? That's ridiculous.
As for the 120,000 gp spent on the phylactery, how much would you have to spend to duplicate the benefits of lichdom?
Amulet of Natural Armor +5 = 50K
Headband of Mental Superiorty +2 = 16K
Energy Resistance Greater (cold) = 66K (still not as good as cold immunity)
Energy Resistance Greater (electricity) = 66K
So I'm barely into the lich template and you've already blown past the 120K spent on the phylactery.
What's happening is your going for an extremely munchkin character build, and I'm guessing the rest of your group isn't too happy about it, and it appears their solution is to kill your character. I think there are much better ways for them to address their problem, but there you have it.
Getting the phylactery is a part of being a lich. You can't use the fact that you had to save for it as an reason to not get the level adjustment. You don't have to do it at level 11. You also chose to have those low hit points, which are party from being so old. You could have played a "normal" aged character and the deadline could have been that you had an incurable disease. You could have also not put the deadline in motion by just being willing to wait past 11th level so you could have proper gear.
Point: You should not get rewarded with bypassing the level adjustment because you made things harder than they have to be. If I make a mechanically inferior _____ to my friend and RP it well should I get extra feats and so on?
slightly off topic: Level adjustment should exist or monsters and templates should be completely off limits. I don't agree to using the LA's in the books. Figuring out an LA adjustment is a fine art, and no flat formula will work for it. I would also have it bought off since the abilities that matter at low levels dont matter so much at higher ones.
I completely agree. LA is an art, not a science. Some LA/monsters-as-PC's don't always add up to the sum of their parts, but you can't go the other route and hand-wave it away.
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What's happening is your going for an extremely munchkin character build, and I'm guessing the rest of your group isn't too happy about it, and it appears their solution is to kill your character. I think there are much better ways for them to address their problem, but there you have it.
Ding ding ding. I think we have a winner. From others posts, ravingdork is the kind of powergamer that plays fast and loose with the rules...which is honestly gonna annoy the a lot of people. The roleplayers get annoyed and even most powergamers get annoyed as most powergamers make it a point to play within the rules pretty strictly.
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Ding ding ding. I think we have a winner. From others posts, ravingdork is the kind of powergamer that plays fast and loose with the rules...which is honestly gonna annoy the a lot of people. The roleplayers get annoyed and even most powergamers get annoyed as most powergamers make it a point to play within the rules pretty strictly.
I am still wondering how his character gets out of bed in the morning much less quests with a party. A stiff breeze would LITERALLY blow him right over, much less a fireball causing a compression blast in the room, falling rocks... pretty much anything.
Something like this happened in a game about 5 years ago with a 3.X game I was playing, the rogue worked constantly towards being a vampire. He achieved his template and had to hand over his character sheet because his internal character motivations changed so much that the character was unplayable.
The achievement of lichdom is all good and well within the game but I highly doubt any league of adventurers regardless of how evil they are would sit back and watch something as crazy as this just happen. Esp knowing that once you change into a lich every. single. one of your character motivations is gone, leaving only chaos, the struggle for power and the like. Leaving them in the path of an extremely dangerous X-player.
It should be said,
Lots of campaigns have been played very successfully with all evil PCs.
Sure, there are gamers out there that aren't so mature as to not ruin the game -- but that has to do with the maturity of the Player, not the minutia of alignment in D&D.
I agree with the above. It has nothing to do with an evil campaign. It has to do with childish players. . Like with many things in a role-playing game players tend to run a monster or power group etc in a totally unintelligent manner. They think in a group of power hungry evil characters they are going to constantly kill each other and never accomplish anything. This is false, for any group, evil or good, they are powerful for a reason and it isn't because they have to constantly hire new members. As long as there is a clear goal to achieve with no hints of treachery most evil groups will work towards a join goal just like any other organization with purpose. I see nothing to indicate that your character has hinted to wanting to kill one or all of the other PC's. They are just being children and likely to destroy one of there biggest weapons in there own goal to gain power, fame, money whatever. If they were trying to curry your favor so you will support them in there own schemes or some such that would make sense but just saying "We are going to kill your character.", that is childish.
The actual problem with an evil focused game is it takes a high level of maturity and role-playing to pull one off. If you lack in either you can't get by on luck to have a good game.
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You will be tempted to make contingency plans, but honestly, her INT of 12 means she shouldn't be Batman in the plan department. I see too many players use game mechanics to come up with plans that truthfully, should be beyond their characters limits.
Oh, so wizard's are allowed to have Batman's brains AND Green Lanturn's power level and versatility but Sorcerers aren't even allowed to be intelligent and tactical with what powers they do have.
Thaaaat sounds really fair *sarcasm twitch*
Errm... but sorcerers get all the chicks and slavish worshipers. Enough said.
Absolutely not. In-game quests, roleplaying, etc, should never be used to balance out mechanical aspects. This has been a design paradigm since 3.0.But it wasn't all in-game quests. A significant amount of personal character resources have been invested (or will be invested rather) to make this character work--or do you think going more than half your career without proper gear, AC, saves, HP, etc., is not some kind of investment?
Everybody else is crafting, collecting, or buying cool magic items to enhance their characters. I am not. I am putting everything into the hope of a phylactery. Saving up for a phylactery is NOT merely "roleplaying," it is "allocation of resources."
I'm in agreement with Ravingdork on this one. Assuming your GM allows his character to go lich, there is _no_ justification for loss of levels, holding back on levels, or whatever. Lichdom has a HUGE front end load in terms of resources and in-character effort to achieve. Getting there can be the point of an entire campaign.
Look at this from another perspective. If a character spent months and years saving up gold, making connections, doing quests, etcetera, all to finance and arrange to take over a kingdom, and succeeds, becoming the 'new king', do you dock them levels, hold back their progression, or some-such just because they acquired a boatload of new power?
Of course not, because with great power comes great consequences. In most cases, a new king wouldn't be able to adventure, or have very different adventures (quelling rebellions, squashing out rightful heirs, stocking the royal harem, etcetera).
Lichdom is similar. It comes with a whole new set of problems - looking like a rotting shell, becoming a paladin target, a new level of nasty evil-er adversaries (now with extra evil!), undead politics, infernal machinations to get her killed for her juicy, juicy soul - you name it.
As for the power-imbalance thing, the main thing about liches is that you can't easily get rid of them for more than a week at a time. That's what makes them fearsome as adversaries...and less so as PCs. PCs don't have unlimited loot to re-stock their lost items, raise their fallen comrades (not to mention getting back their stuff too)...a party wipe is still a party wipe.
Ding ding ding. I think we have a winner. From others posts, ravingdork is the kind of powergamer that plays fast and loose with the rules...which is honestly gonna annoy the a lot of people. The roleplayers get annoyed and even most powergamers get annoyed as most powergamers make it a point to play within the rules pretty strictly.What's happening is your going for an extremely munchkin character build, and I'm guessing the rest of your group isn't too happy about it, and it appears their solution is to kill your character. I think there are much better ways for them to address their problem, but there you have it.
Even if that is the case (I don't believe it is as Hama has rarely even been in the PC spotlight) then it is still something the players should come and talk to me about out of game, rather than leaving confusing maybe-threats.
I am still wondering how his character gets out of bed in the morning much less quests with a party. A stiff breeze would LITERALLY blow him right over, much less a fireball causing a compression blast in the room, falling rocks... pretty much anything.
So long as a creature has 1 strength, they can still move about normally. They aren't going to be unable to get out of bed or be easily blown away. The former would require no strength and the latter would require an extreme lack of body weight. Also, fireballs create no pressure, so there is no compression.
When outdoors, Hama spends much of her time as the driver of the party's ox-drawn covered wagon. Even during combat she rarely leaves her seat unless she if forced to (such as to get to cover inside the wagon). She usually acts the role of the terrified hired hand while she discreetly casts silent/stilled spells at the enemy. This is how she has survived to level nine when a single fireball might have done her in (by being the least important target among the party). Shield other from the party cleric helps too.
When indoors she, like most spellcasters, is usually in the back row trying to stay out of the way.
Even after becoming a lich, due to her spell selection, her tactics won't change that much at all, so she STILL won't be stealing any player spotlight.
Something like this happened in a game about 5 years ago with a 3.X game I was playing, the rogue worked constantly towards being a vampire. He achieved his template and had to hand over his character sheet because his internal character motivations changed so much that the character was unplayable.
The achievement of lichdom is all good and well within the game but I highly doubt any league of adventurers regardless of how evil they are would sit back and watch something as crazy as this just happen. Esp knowing that once you change into a lich every. single. one of your character motivations is gone, leaving only chaos, the struggle for power and the like. Leaving them in the path of an extremely dangerous X-player.
Just because they take on a template, doesn't mean a character's personality changes (not unless the template specifically says so), so I don't know where you keep getting your idea from (well, aside from your personal experiences).
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In the end, I still don't see any in-game reasons why their characters would want to kill Hama. The party cleric converted Hama to his faith, and as a powerful and loyal member of his church she can only really be a boon to his vile cause. The party barbarian/monk was brought out of his savagery and taught about enlightenment and how to be civilized (as well as how to read) by Hama herself. The party bard is Hama's business partner (they deal in slaves and poison). The party ranger has been rescued by Hama (at great risk to herself) a number of times. The whole thing is a symbiotic "you help me accomplish my goals and I'll help you accomplish your goals" kind of affair. She's also the party's cook. The others would literally STARVE without her.
That really just leaves the alleged out of game reasons, which should be dealt with clearly and out of game.
Still, I think I may invest in a contingency scroll--just in case the other players live up to their word. Or else poison their stew. :P
I'm in agreement with Ravingdork on this one. Assuming your GM allows his character to go lich, there is _no_ justification for loss of levels, holding back on levels, or whatever. Lichdom has a HUGE front end load in terms of resources and in-character effort to achieve. Getting there can be the point of an entire campaign.
Look at this from another perspective. If a character spent months and years saving up gold, making connections, doing quests, etcetera, all to finance and arrange to take over a kingdom, and succeeds, becoming the 'new king', do you dock them levels, hold back their progression, or some-such just because they acquired a boatload of new power?
Of course not, because with great power comes great consequences. In most cases, a new king wouldn't be able to adventure, or have very different adventures (quelling rebellions, squashing out rightful heirs, stocking the royal harem, etcetera).
Lichdom is similar. It comes with a whole new set of problems - looking like a rotting shell, becoming a paladin target, a new level of nasty evil-er adversaries (now with extra evil!), undead politics, infernal machinations to get her killed for her juicy, juicy soul - you name it.
As for the power-imbalance thing, the main thing about liches is that you can't easily get rid of them for more than a week at a time. That's what makes them fearsome as adversaries...and less so as PCs. PCs don't have unlimited loot to re-stock their lost items, raise their fallen comrades (not to mention getting back their stuff too)...a party wipe is still a party wipe.
Thank you for putting it so eloquently when I could not.