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Apparently, a long time bard player was looking at the class, and this was his conclusion. He said that a) the bombs are not sneak attack. They don't have the damage behind them to be viable in combat.
B)a lot of his abilities and his extracts and his mutagens just plain suck, he can't make effective use of them and he can't give the benefits to his party until too late in the class.
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Hmm, I'm still working on alchemists. My feeling is they aren't as strong as the bard, but I think bards are pretty b&#~~in now so so that's ok. My current one is a mix of ranged and melee.
I am still trying to figure out exactly what alchemists specialty is. At low levels they seem to be a reliable source of damage nearly every round. Touch attacks rarely miss. Higher level you get things like sticky bomb that doubles the damage over 2 rounds which ramps up damage.
The problem is they don't get any of the ranged attack goodies archers do. Rapid shot, Many shot, Deadly Aim, Vital strike are all denied.
The poisoning abilities are kind of interesting too. Overall my feeling is most of the new classes are less powerful than core. The witch and (maybe) the summoner seem to be the exceptions.
All that said, what is your friends build?
Don't forget you can probably pour through your copy of Spell Compendium and other WotC products with spells in them to add more types of elixirs for the alchemist to perform.
Paizo said they'll include guidelines on how to add spells from other books into each of the class' spell lists. I just hope it's a very thorough guideline (which was why I always preferred them to just go with magic schools instead of individual spells).
Nothing is more of a headache than adding individual spells to unique spell lists. You have to not only weigh what works with the "theme" of the class, but also at what spell level (should the spell be available as a 4th instead of a 5th, for example?).
Agree with 0gre about the new classes being, for the most part, slightly less than the 'core' classes.
As for alchemists, I see a couple potential roles; First is a 'blaster.' Upgrade the bombs, chuck away, lots of mini-AOEs for mook damage. Yes, blasting is a 'subpar' strategy for casters, but the Alchemist isn't really limited to 'bombs per day.' So, he's like the Warlock, for better or worse.
Or, you can focus on the mutagens/extracts, give yourself some melee potential, and start party buffing as soon as you can get the discovery for it.
Obviously, most wil fall omewhere between the two. Maybe a buffing blaster?
A buffing blaster who bashes bumbling blokes? :p
Unlike sneak attack, an alchemist's bombs affect multiple targets per attack.
And remember that the splash damage from a bomb is the minimum damage of the bomb (frex, 2 out of 2d6) plus the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. So your typical 1st-level human alchemist is doing 1d6+4 to one target and 5 (no save) to multiple secondary targets. Several times per day.
And IIRC, that minimum damage also applies to all splash weapons the alchemist uses. So alchemist's fire and alchemical acid suddenly got very dangerous in the splash zone.
Unlike sneak attack, an alchemist's bombs affect multiple targets per attack.
And remember that the splash damage from a bomb is the minimum damage of the bomb (frex, 2 out of 2d6) plus the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. So your typical 1st-level human alchemist is doing 1d6+4 to one target and 5 (no save) to multiple secondary targets. Several times per day.
And IIRC, that minimum damage also applies to all splash weapons the alchemist uses. So alchemist's fire and alchemical acid suddenly got very dangerous in the splash zone.
+1. This is definitely true (but remember, there's a save now for the secondary targets).
My Alchemist, along with two other PCs, are rampaging through an updated Curse of the Crimson Throne Edge of Anarchy, even though we only have three people, we don't have an arcane spellcaster, and we don't have a cleric. Everything Sean said is true, and my Alchemist's Shield Infusions also help the party a lot, since no one has a shield.
Alchemists also currently have no feat support, which means their feats are completely free for just about any tree under the sun.
Since an alchemist can self-buff like crazy, many feats with ability score prerequisites can be taken that can only be used when buffed (remember, you can take a feat you don't qualify for, you just can't use it or any feats that come after it until you do meet the prerequisites. Unless that was changed in Pathfinder...hmm).
So, a mutagen specialist, with two weapon fighting and power attack (or ditch two weapon fighting and take the claws discovery and an amulet of mighty fists) can actually dish out some very noticable melee damage, especially since the mutagen stacks with bull's strength. Add eternal potions for constant haste, and things can get very nasty fast.
There are some equally nasty bomb builds as well, once you diversify into sonic or force bombs to avoid resistance/immunity issues.
And yeah, poison + alchemists = some crazy stuff.
My experience so far is that the alchemist is an "advanced" class, in that you can't just jump into it and get the full mileage out of it. You have to consider what and where you are going with the class. Beyond that, I think its definitely on par with most of the core classes in overall power.
Also wanted to mention that with the new magic item crafting rules, Alchemists can make great backup condition healers. In my savage tide game, the group fell prey to a mummy rot trap, with 2 members failing their saves.
The alchemist was able, despite only being 3rd level, (racial HD sucking up rest of levels) to make 2 potions of remove curse, and 2 potions of remove disease, in 2 days, at DC 25 (base 5+5 caster level+5 for not having the caster level+5 for not having the spell+5 for rushing)using an alchemy modifier of +15. It was close due to the con damage from the mummy rot, but both victims were successfully saved.
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Unlike sneak attack, an alchemist's bombs affect multiple targets per attack.
And remember that the splash damage from a bomb is the minimum damage of the bomb (frex, 2 out of 2d6) plus the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. So your typical 1st-level human alchemist is doing 1d6+4 to one target and 5 (no save) to multiple secondary targets. Several times per day.
And IIRC, that minimum damage also applies to all splash weapons the alchemist uses. So alchemist's fire and alchemical acid suddenly got very dangerous in the splash zone.
Wait, the final playtest version says there is a reflex save for half damage in the splash radius. Did this get revised on the forums or is this something we don't know about yet?
The splash damage certainly makes the alchemist nasty in low levels, I'm just not so sure about once you get past 10th level or so. The super charged mutagens are nice (and stack with enhancement bonuses) but are more melee focused.
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There are some equally nasty bomb builds as well, once you diversify into sonic or force bombs to avoid resistance/immunity issues.
The problem I have with the alternate energy bombs is you can only apply one discovery to a bomb at a time. So you can't get a sonic sticky bomb or a sonic explosive bomb. It's not even clear that you can have a sonic potent bomb. "Only one such discovery can be applied to an individual bomb."
Wait, the final playtest version says there is a reflex save for half damage in the splash radius. Did this get revised on the forums or is this something we don't know about yet?
I didn't have my APG printout handy when I wrote that post, and we haven't played in 6 weeks, so I could be remembering wrong.
And remember that the splash damage from a bomb is the minimum damage of the bomb (frex, 2 out of 2d6) plus the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. So your typical 1st-level human alchemist is doing 1d6+4 to one target and 5 (no save) to multiple secondary targets. Several times per day.
The bolded part is not true.
On a direct hit, an alchemist’s bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike). Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb’s minimum damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage). Those caught in the splash damage can attempt a Reflex save for half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the alchemist’s level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier.
(Late on post of course)
It should be true -- no other splash weapon gives a save throw, and unlike other sources of AOE damage the bomb has a very small splash radius and does minimum damage to the secondary targets which should be enough of a reduction in damage as it stands.
What is the alchemist supposed to do? I mean, what is the class's function?
Either a melee attacker (Str mutagen + Feral mutagen, e.g.) or a ranged attacker (Sticky Bomb + stack on the Potent Bombs discovery a few times, e.g.).
I'm not sure why the bard is supposed to be similar.
How can a bard be compared to the alchemist? ohhh the main topic is just out of order.
For the alchemist being playble: Many ranged feats are viable for alchemist. Also vital strike can be used with bomb it just doesnt stack with the 9d6 only the first 1d6 of the whole 10d6.
Alchemist can dish out enourmous amounts of damage either melee or ranged.
Eternal haste gives you an extra attack when using the full-attack action making it super handy in both ranged and melee combat. Mutagens are extra strong for melee alchemists boosting their medium BAB and their damage as well as their survivability. Potent bombs + Fast bombs and smoke -> poison -> inferno bombs are also very usefull for ranged.
In generally alchemists are very versatile and can be played in many ways.
(ranged dps, melee dps, utility man, healer, buffer) A really nice and well made class(maybe a little overpowered)
I cant wait for the official release with all the changes
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Unlike sneak attack, an alchemist's bombs affect multiple targets per attack.
And remember that the splash damage from a bomb is the minimum damage of the bomb (frex, 2 out of 2d6) plus the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. So your typical 1st-level human alchemist is doing 1d6+4 to one target and 5 (no save) to multiple secondary targets. Several times per day.
And IIRC, that minimum damage also applies to all splash weapons the alchemist uses. So alchemist's fire and alchemical acid suddenly got very dangerous in the splash zone.
Nice... I'll have to take a look at that class... 5 for splash damage is awesome...
Keep in mind, there's a lot about alchemist we don't know.
Anyways, I can't really get a feel for the power of the class, but I still love it :D
Underpowered? My group says the alchemist is overpowered. We're 12th level and I routinely do 20-30 points of damage on ranged touch attacks. And I can choose cold, fire or force damage. I can choose up to 6 secondary targets to not take splash damage and with precise shot I take no penalty when firing into melee. I've got Farshot so I routinely throw at ranges like 40-60 ft, and can do >100 with little difficulty. Plus when I drink my dex mutigen, I've got close to a 30 AC (+6 from dex and +4 from natural) and can throw even better.
Comparing the alchemist to the bard isn't fair. The bard supports the group by providing bonuses to the group. The alchemist can do this, but does this in a secondary fashion, since it requires other players to spend an action to drink the infusion. Primary, they are artillery. They do a crapload of damage from a far distance.
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Underpowered? My group says the alchemist is overpowered. We're 12th level and I routinely do 20-30 points of damage on ranged touch attacks. And I can choose cold, fire or force damage. I can choose up to 6 secondary targets to not take splash damage and with precise shot I take no penalty when firing into melee. I've got Farshot so I routinely throw at ranges like 40-60 ft, and can do >100 with little difficulty. Plus when I drink my dex mutigen, I've got close to a 30 AC (+6 from dex and +4 from natural) and can throw even better.
Comparing the alchemist to the bard isn't fair. The bard supports the group by providing bonuses to the group. The alchemist can do this, but does this in a secondary fashion, since it requires other players to spend an action to drink the infusion. Primary, they are artillery. They do a crapload of damage from a far distance.
Warlocks from 3.5 did more damage on a touch attack, although i don't recall if they had a feat that allowed them to do an aoe effect with it. It just seems really wonky and MAD.
There's no warlock converted to Pathfinder yet, and the Alchemist hasn't been released with it's final changes yet, so there's two levels of problems with comparison.
Honestly, I ran an old aged kobold alchemist against my party recently, and between smoke bombs and various self buffs, the kobold was extremely nasty.
He wasn't meant to be a serious combat encounter (taking any damage, or if the party followed him too far into his lair, he'd try and escape). Even so, he was able to seriously injure the party in only a couple rounds of actual combat... enough that I'd be afraid to see what an alchemist who isn't afraid to go nova on the party can do.
As for alchemists, I see a couple potential roles; First is a 'blaster.' Upgrade the bombs, chuck away, lots of mini-AOEs for mook damage. Yes, blasting is a 'subpar' strategy for casters, but the Alchemist isn't really limited to 'bombs per day.' So, he's like the Warlock, for better or worse.
I generally agree with your post,but alchemists don't have infinite bombs per day. "Only" their class level+intelligence modifier bombs per day.
I think this combined with the fact you can't apply two discoveries at the same time makes them far more weaker than they initially would appear. Still its VERY hard to gauge their strength without actually playing one (or two).
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I generally agree with your post,but alchemists don't have infinite bombs per day. "Only" their class level+intelligence modifier bombs per day.
I think this combined with the fact you can't apply two discoveries at the same time makes them far more weaker than they initially would appear. Still its VERY hard to gauge their strength without actually playing one (or two).
I have to point out that in some ways the bombs are far more powerful than just a blast. Stink bomb and poison bomb both provide pretty solid debuffs in an good area effect and they can be used repeatedly.
I'm still trying to dial this class in, I know it's fun but it might just be a bit wimpy. I certainly don't see any chance of it being overpowered. My current character is focused more on melee, I don't see how he'll be competing with other melee classes but he will always have good ranged options which many other melee classes lack.
We're in a small party right now so I think the versatility will be good.
There's no warlock converted to Pathfinder yet
Yes, there is. It's in the Tome of Secrets, and it's craptacular. The class doesn't even make sense since it uses Beta rules.
Yes, there is. It's in the Tome of Secrets, and it's craptacular. The class doesn't even make sense since it uses Beta rules.There's no warlock converted to Pathfinder yet
Heh, I'm not sure if I would count that as converted, considering it's not even using the official rules. But, I stand corrected.
Apparently, a long time bard player was looking at the class, and this was his conclusion.
It has been said before, but I'll repeat it for the sake of completeness: Alchemists and Bards are nothing alike! They may have the same BAB, a similar save structure, and their magic both goes to 6th-level stuff, but that's about it!
Bards are masters of lore, skill monkeys/ party faces, party buffers, and have some magic to mess with people's heads and the like. They can be passable warriors, but it's not exactly a strength.
Alchemists use their alchemagic to buff themselves and then hurt people. They can also poison the heck out of people and do a little light bombing on the side.
Alchemists are much more "selfish" and about taking the fight to the enemy directly, while bards are supporters.
He said that a) the bombs are not sneak attack. They don't have the damage behind them to be viable in combat.
True. The bombs aren't sneak attack. They aren't supposed to be sneak attack. They still really hurt a primary victim AND affect whoever's around. An experienced alchemist can also get a number of really nice additions to his bombs, like bombs that drive you mad or knock you off your feet.
And don't forget that it's just a touch attack to hit with a bomb, and you don't have get in position like you have to with sneak attack.
You might not have that many bombs a day, need a special discovery to throw them like you'd throw daggers, and if you do that, you quickly run through your daily supply, but they can be great if used in rounds where you are moving, anyway.
B)a lot of his abilities and his extracts and his mutagens just plain suck, he can't make effective use of them and he can't give the benefits to his party until too late in the class.
The fact that he normally can't help out his party with his alchemical concoctions is not really the alchemist's problem, now is it. It were if his role was meant to be party buffer, but it isn't. This is like saying "the fighter sucks, his party cannot benefit from any of his bonus feats" or "the druid sucks, he cannot turn other people into animals with wildshape!" or "the cleric sucks, his best combat spells are personal!" and so on.
Beyond that, I don't see anything that sucks.
What abilities suck?
Brew Potion: Nice, a bonus feat. Potions are a nice way to extend your repertoire, increase your daily magical potency, and with the right discoveries, you can increase their potency, or create cheap copies, or even gain a permanent bonus out of one potion. I know you get that one late, but do you know what doesn't suck? Permanent haste, or flying, for free!
Bombs: See above.
Mutagens: Sure, you do take a hit on a mental ability score, but in return, you get a bigger bonus on a physical one, plus natural armour. And the fun part: That bonus stacks with enhancement and size bonuses! With the right discoveries, you can increase your mutagen's potency. So you're a high-level alchemist and just took a hit on int, wis AND cha. Big deal. The intelligence penalty might mean your spellcasting is affected, but that doesn't matter so. Charisma is just plain inconsequential. The wisdom hurts your will save, but you'll get over it. You know why? Because you've just turned yourself into a troll and downed a grand mutagen. You gained +6 to natural armour, +14 to strength (let's just say you started with 16, added 2 from levels, got a +6 item, which means your strength is now 38 for a whopping +14 on attacks and +21 on two-handed damage!), +10 to consitution, +2 to dexterity (or +8/+4, if you prefer), and regeneration 5!
Throw Anything: Not bad, really. If you're out of bombs you can just throw whatever is around. And alchemist's fire and similar stuff to great effect!
Discoveries: I don't see any that plain suck. Some are not that overwhelming, but most can be useful. You get stuff like 8th-level spell effects on your bombs, improved mutagens, stuff that makes potions really nifty, an ability you can get as early as 2nd level that allows you to share your extracts with your party (how 2nd level can be "too late in the class" for any class is way beyond me...), stuff gives you a lot more bang for your poison buck, extra damage on bombs (something rogues can't get for their sneak attacks!), and more!
Poison resistance/immunity. I'd say that can be quite useful!
Poison use: Well, not ultra-great, but okay.
Swift alchemy: Just fits, he's an alchemist
Swift poisoning. Combined with sticky poison, this means you can poison some sucker several times out of the blue.
Instant alchemy: That guy's McGyver!
Grand discovery: Not all are total winners (true mutagen seems to have been overlooked, as it is the same as in the first draft while mutagens in general have been improved), but there's some truly awesome stuff in here.
Formulae/Extracts: Wouldn't call them bad. Not at all. There's a lot of very useful stuff in there, all very useful for someone who wants to buff himself to lay waste to his enemies!
All in all a very interesting class!
I haven't really gotten a handle on Alchemists yet. I think I'll be hoping for some changes in APG. The couple builds I've played with have shown really disappointing results.
Underpowered? My group says the alchemist is overpowered. We're 12th level and I routinely do 20-30 points of damage on ranged touch attacks.
This is kind of what I'm getting at. 20-30 damage at 12th level??? For an entire round???
I'm not sure if the poster intended the above comment as sarcastic, but I'm hoping he did.
There may be some combinations of self buffing that makes the Alchemist useful in melee. Nothing I've come up with that has him comparable with other melee classes though.
I've played around with a bomb specialized alchemist and he's the most powerful blaster I've seen in Pathfinder so far. A rough draft I made for the DPR olympics had around 75 DPR, which is more than most others. I haven't looked at a melee specialist but bombs pack a serious punch, and you can modify them as you'd like with discoveries.
My favorite part about the alchemist is versatility. He's got a number of very good spells available to him, and one of the things that's amazing about him is that he can save some slots and prepare them later on that day, so situational spells you can't foresee being used get a lot more play. He can't do it in combat, but that's what the rest of your slots are for.
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Nice... I'll have to take a look at that class... 5 for splash damage is awesome...Unlike sneak attack, an alchemist's bombs affect multiple targets per attack.
And remember that the splash damage from a bomb is the minimum damage of the bomb (frex, 2 out of 2d6) plus the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. So your typical 1st-level human alchemist is doing 1d6+4 to one target and 5 (no save) to multiple secondary targets. Several times per day.
And IIRC, that minimum damage also applies to all splash weapons the alchemist uses. So alchemist's fire and alchemical acid suddenly got very dangerous in the splash zone.
It's more than awesome... it can be absolute murder! A single alchemist NPC lurking behind two rogue buddies (who kept the PCs at bay) almost caused a TPK in my campaign. I mean, alchemist adds his/her Int modifier to bomb damage (also splash damage) and easily causes around 30 points to a single target per round. If you add in the 'Precise Bombs' discovery, it almost feels unfair...
And that's just one aspect of the class; I think they're pretty versatile and interesting to play. After encontering the alchemist one of the players said he'd like to play one as his next character. The alchemist became my favorite character class, too -- sadly, as the GM I don't get to play one for a while (but I'll soon be joining another PF group as a player! :)).
This is kind of what I'm getting at. 20-30 damage at 12th level??? For an entire round???
My 8th level Kobold encounter (CR 7, it was a kobold beefed up to being on par with normal race stats), was doing better than that.
He was tossing 5d6+6 damage bombs (avg 23.5), plus 11 splash. Hitting just one other person, he was doing in the 30s for damage.
However, he started things off with a stink bomb (only 4d6+6 damage due to not stacking of discoveries), but forced the players to make Fort save checks or be nauseated, and couldn't see what was going on.
The next round he full attacked, with haste from a potion he crafted (making a DC 20 on a roll of 1, beating the 5 + 5 caster level + 5 not having the spell at the time + 5 to make it faster DC), he tossed three bombs at +11/+11/+6.
If I remember right, he made the miss chance on two of them, and the third just did splash damage to those around that one spot it landed.
Even with Reflex save being made by some characters (for half and no damage), he still did over 100 damage in that single round.
Plus the characters couldn't see out of the 30'x30' cloud, and half were nauseated and only able to try and leave the area.
I'm pretty sure a cohort that was not nauseated tried to charge the kobold and promptly fell right into the deadfall trap... and died outright from the damage.
It was a lucky shot from the Ranger who rolled a perception check to locate the kobold's square, and then made a shot that beat the miss chance and negatives to damage the kobold.
If the kobold hadn't been written up as a kind of "meet a unique bad guy, fight another day" encounter, he could have taken that one hit and probably killed at least one of the PCs before they could have recovered enough to take him down.
He had Fly already going, and had Gaseous Form ready if things really got bad..
Fun NPC, but it was a surprise how devastating just a couple bombs could be... even with some misses.
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Now, granted... he used 4 bombs to get that effect. He only had 10 more for the day (another couple stink bombs and a couple hundred more damage-ish, depending on how the party splits up). Plus a few alchemist fire he'd prepared, and then of course his spells for protection and healing, and his poisoned stick he was going to smack on anyone that got close.
As an NPC encounter, these guys can hold their own.
As a PC, running against a number of encounters per day? He might feel the pinch more, and not do as much damage as others.. then again, with the Infusion discovery, he can do things like hand the Fighter a "potion" that gives him Heal.
Or give people buff extracts before combat, and you aren't wasting YOUR turn buffing people up (they use their own action instead, which can mean multiple different buffs all going off in one round, instead of just one buff or one group buff).
What a PC Alchemist loses in damage capability for limited resources, he can make up for in greater utility.
I haven't really gotten a handle on Alchemists yet. I think I'll be hoping for some changes in APG. The couple builds I've played with have shown really disappointing results.
Underpowered? My group says the alchemist is overpowered. We're 12th level and I routinely do 20-30 points of damage on ranged touch attacks.This is kind of what I'm getting at. 20-30 damage at 12th level??? For an entire round???
I'm not sure if the poster intended the above comment as sarcastic, but I'm hoping he did.
There may be some combinations of self buffing that makes the Alchemist useful in melee. Nothing I've come up with that has him comparable with other melee classes though.
Have you looked at the fast bombs discovery?
Fast bombs: An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with ranged weapon. An alchemist must be at least 8th level before selecting this discovery.
At 12th level, haste yourself and have taken rapid shot. You will typically be making something like the following ranged touch attack combo:
+14/+14/+14/+9 for 6d6+7 per direct hit (I am adding an extra 1 for point blank, and you could add an extra +6 for deadly aim at an extra -3 to hit, of course), and 12 splash damage damage. You could, if you wanted, target the floor for 48 splash damage save to half automatically. Or imagine if all of those bombs were poison gas bombs? In any case, at 12th level my hypothetical imaginary alchemist is doing 104 points of damage to, say, a stone golem that would ordinarily be immune to many spells.A good question would be if the point blank and deadly aim bonus damage adds to splash damage (since it effects the minimum damage). Seems to me it does, so at 12th level you could deadly aim a target 30' from...
Haste and rapid shot do not work in conjunction with bombs.
Haste and rapid shot do not work in conjunction with bombs.
Fast Bombs discovery says:
"The alchemist can prepare and throw additional
bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high
enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just
like a full-attack with ranged weapon."
If you can throw more daggers per round using Haste and Rapid Shot, then someone using fast bombs would be able to in the exact same way.
This discovery is effectively "Quickdraw" with your bombs.
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If you have something that indicates otherwise, please post it.
Even if you can't though, you are still throwing multiple bombs per round with iteratives.
This is kind of what I'm getting at. 20-30 damage at 12th level??? For an entire round???
No. I have 18 bombs per day. With fast bomb I can throw 2 bombs in a round meaning I can do 40-60 points of damage. And thanks to the mutigin, I have a +6 Dex, combine that with improved init, I've got an init of +10. Max perception and I frequently go in the surprise round. So I tend to launch 3 bombs (60-90 points of damage) before the paladin can get off a single hit.
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This is kind of what I'm getting at. 20-30 damage at 12th level??? For an entire round???
At 10th level with fast bomb you do (5d6+6)*2 (average 47) points damage with 22 points of splash. Even that seems rather underwhelming to me.
If you assume that fast bomb can work in conjunction with other discoveries then you can do that damage plus drop a stink bomb (stinking cloud) or poison bomb at 12th level which would make a decent combo. The problem is it's not clear if fast bomb works with anything else.
"Only one such discovery can be applied to an individual bomb."
Being limited to one ice/ acid bomb per round is super weak but then being able to toss out a stink bomb and a poison bomb in a round is quite potent. Lots of uncertainty in how to read this stuff makes it tough to decide whether it's decent or not.
Which is it, super weak or potent?
There may be some combinations of self buffing that makes the Alchemist useful in melee. Nothing I've come up with that has him comparable with other melee classes though.
I think they are pretty decent at melee at lower levels with the feral mutagen. But beyond the low levels their effectiveness trails off quite a bit, the advantage in attacks per round disappears by 6th level.
One thing I haven't really gotten a grasp of is how effective poison is as a weapon for PCs. Sticky poison and self crafting brings poisoning costs way down but it's still an expensive way to kill someone. And is it enough to really be good for melee? Poison is a slow damaging effect. I could see throwing a few poisoned spears at a dragon to work at it's strength but when you are in melee it seems like it would take too long to make a difference.
Overall I kind of agree with you, I'm struggling with how to make the Alchemist work. I like the class and I'm trying it but not sure it's going to cut it.
This is kind of what I'm getting at. 20-30 damage at 12th level??? For an entire round???At 10th level with fast bomb you do (5d6+6)*2 (average 47) points damage with 22 points of splash. Even that seems rather underwhelming to me.
I assume there's at least a couple of Potent Bomb discoveries being used, too; Potent Bomb and Sticky Bomb are the prime damage boosts. Now maybe that's still not much for the games you play in, but I'm used to seeing characters like a fighter with a rapier who likes to use Spring Attack, so YMMV. :-)
This is kind of what I'm getting at. 20-30 damage at 12th level??? For an entire round???At 10th level with fast bomb you do (5d6+6)*2 (average 47) points damage with 22 points of splash. Even that seems rather underwhelming to me.
If you assume that fast bomb can work in conjunction with other discoveries then you can do that damage plus drop a stink bomb (stinking cloud) or poison bomb at 12th level which would make a decent combo. The problem is it's not clear if fast bomb works with anything else.
"Only one such discovery can be applied to an individual bomb."
Being limited to one ice/ acid bomb per round is super weak but then being able to toss out a stink bomb and a poison bomb in a round is quite potent. Lots of uncertainty in how to read this stuff makes it tough to decide whether it's decent or not.
Which is it, super weak or potent?
There may be some combinations of self buffing that makes the Alchemist useful in melee. Nothing I've come up with that has him comparable with other melee classes though.I think they are pretty decent at melee at lower levels with the feral mutagen. But beyond the low levels their effectiveness trails off quite a bit, the advantage in attacks per round disappears by 6th level.
One thing I haven't really gotten a grasp of is how effective poison is as a weapon for PCs. Sticky poison and self crafting brings poisoning costs way down but it's still an expensive way to kill someone. And is it enough to really be good for melee? Poison is a slow damaging effect. I could see throwing a few poisoned spears at a dragon to work at it's strength but when you are in melee it seems like it would take too long to make a difference.
Overall I kind of agree with you, I'm struggling with how to make the Alchemist work. I like the class and I'm trying it but not sure it's going to cut it.
I'd be eager to write a guide for Alchemist, but it would be a waste since it might change in the final APG, so I'll hold off until that point. Here's some basic thoughts:
With Infusion, the Alchemist's ability to give the party the ability to use self-only buffs on themselves should not be ignored. Handing out Shield to archers, two-handed fighters, animal companions, etc can really shoot up their AC. This is particularly true at lower levels. The key is the ability to hand out infusions ahead of time so that party members can drink the infusions on their own turns and thus not rely on the Alchemist as much to buff consecutively in battle. The Alchemist's version of Enlarge Person is also faster to activate than everyone else's, since drinking the infusion does not take a full round.
Admittedly, the bomb damage is much more powerful at lower levels and doesn't scale very well to the higher levels. Also admittedly, I haven't played my Alchemist past level 4. But up until that point, he has consistently combined acceptable damage support with excellent efficient party buffs, emergency backup healing, and ridiculously good AC.
Also, I've learned not to underestimate the cheaper poisons in Pathfinder from experience very recently--if you coat your entire party's weapons in the same kind of poison, even the lowly Black Adder venom can be deadly, even at higher levels. For instance, an Alchemist with 24 Int at level 8 (using Sticky Poison) can make Black Adder Venom that is sticky enough that the cost is approximately 17 GP per attack. Now let's say she coats the whole party's weapons in the stuff. They should be able to deliver enough hits to put a good number of doses in the enemy in a round of full attacks, and barring the enemy having a Neutralize Poison available (most don't), the Alchemist's party could potentially make at least 10 attacks (if they had anyone who went TWF or archery, or a Haste) in a single round. If 7 of those attacks hit, that's DC 23 save or lose 1d2 Con for 24 rounds (they'll make a save by then, though, of course). I think clever parties could make more than that many attacks in a full attack and raise the DC even higher. Then, they can Dimension Door away or something and wait for the foe to die, or they can just keep fighting with the Con damage helping them along.
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I assume there's at least a couple of Potent Bomb discoveries being used, too; Potent Bomb and Sticky Bomb are the prime damage boosts. Now maybe that's still not much for the games you play in, but I'm used to seeing characters like a fighter with a rapier who likes to use Spring Attack, so YMMV. :-)This is kind of what I'm getting at. 20-30 damage at 12th level??? For an entire round???At 10th level with fast bomb you do (5d6+6)*2 (average 47) points damage with 22 points of splash. Even that seems rather underwhelming to me.
Well it's hard to compare. The archer at this level can put out more damage (to a single target) but maybe not against higher AC creatures. Archers have to deal with DR while alchemists deal with energy resistance.
I think the alchemists do just fine if you assume you can apply other discoveries to bombs on top of fast bombs. Doing 47 points of cold damage to a red dragon is pretty decent. If they don't work together then you are essentially good at doing fire damage only which is seriously limiting.
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I'd be eager to write a guide for Alchemist, but it would be a waste since it might change in the final APG, so I'll hold off until that point. Here's some basic thoughts:
With Infusion, the Alchemist's ability to give the party the ability to use self-only buffs on themselves should not be ignored. Handing out Shield to archers, two-handed fighters, animal companions, etc can really shoot up their AC. This is particularly true at lower levels. The key is the ability to hand out infusions ahead of time so that party members can drink the infusions on their own turns and thus not rely on the Alchemist as much to buff consecutively in battle. The Alchemist's version of Enlarge Person is also faster to activate than everyone else's, since drinking the infusion does not take a full round.Admittedly, the bomb damage is much more powerful at lower levels and doesn't scale very well to the higher levels. Also admittedly, I haven't played my Alchemist past level 4. But up until that point, he has consistently combined acceptable damage support with excellent efficient party buffs, emergency backup healing, and ridiculously good AC.
At low levels you don't have a lot of infusions to spread around and the duration for shield isn't long enough to last much more than one or two encounter. So you can blow all your spells to let the whole party tank for one encounter? Eh not that great. Also, with infusions each party member spends an action to get a buff. Compare this to the sort of full party buffs the bard, cleric, or wizard can throw down with a single action and it's not very impressive. There are some really nice things you can do with infusion but overall the alchemist is not a good buffer.
Opening up the Polymorph school to the rest of the party is pretty cool though which the wizard can't do until higher levels. Throwing down Giant Form, Form of Dragon, and Polymorph Infusions is nice.
Also, I've learned not to underestimate the cheaper poisons in Pathfinder from experience very recently--if you coat your entire party's weapons in the same kind of poison, even the lowly Black Adder venom can be deadly, even at higher levels.
You have a 5% chance per attack of poisoning party members, the ones who are doing the most attacks are at the highest risk.
Dishing a bunch of poisoned attacks and getting away is a reasonable tactic for ranged attacks but it makes more sense to simply use a more potent poison. A javelin with deathblade is reusable and costs 100 gold per dose. Starting DC is 20, it is more damaging, and requires 2 saves.
Probably the best bang for your buck cheap poison if you want to hit with a ton of attacks to ramp the DC is drow poison. An alchemist is crafting it for 25 gp and it's save or sleep, you don't have to worry about dimension dooring out.
I would point out that the Fast Bomb ability gives the alchemist an ability to make bombs faster -- it doesn't actually affect the bombs themselves -- only the speed the alchemist makes them at.
Things like explosive bomb specifically change the properties of the bomb itself.
I'd be eager to write a guide for Alchemist, but it would be a waste since it might change in the final APG, so I'll hold off until that point. Here's some basic thoughts:
With Infusion, the Alchemist's ability to give the party the ability to use self-only buffs on themselves should not be ignored. Handing out Shield to archers, two-handed fighters, animal companions, etc can really shoot up their AC. This is particularly true at lower levels. The key is the ability to hand out infusions ahead of time so that party members can drink the infusions on their own turns and thus not rely on the Alchemist as much to buff consecutively in battle. The Alchemist's version of Enlarge Person is also faster to activate than everyone else's, since drinking the infusion does not take a full round.Admittedly, the bomb damage is much more powerful at lower levels and doesn't scale very well to the higher levels. Also admittedly, I haven't played my Alchemist past level 4. But up until that point, he has consistently combined acceptable damage support with excellent efficient party buffs, emergency backup healing, and ridiculously good AC.
At low levels you don't have a lot of infusions to spread around and the duration for shield isn't long enough to last much more than one or two encounter. So you can blow all your spells to let the whole party tank for one encounter? Eh not that great. Also, with infusions each party member spends an action to get a buff. Compare this to the sort of full party buffs the bard, cleric, or wizard can throw down with a single action and it's not very impressive. There are some really nice things you can do with infusion but overall the alchemist is not a good buffer.
Opening up the Polymorph school to the rest of the party is pretty cool though which the wizard can't do until higher levels. Throwing down Giant Form, Form of Dragon, and Polymorph Infusions is nice.
Also, I've learned not to underestimate the cheaper poisons in Pathfinder...
Admittedly, we do rush through the dungeon at that point. But we've managed each dungeon in CotCT so far in time to not have the infusions run out--just barely.
Deathblade and Drow Poison are also definitely excellent. And the chance to poison your buddies is annoying, but fortunately the chance they get affected and then fail a save is probably low, since they won't be hitting each other with a bunch of doses.
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You gained +6 to natural armour, +14 to strength (let's just say you started with 16, added 2 from levels, got a +6 item, which means your strength is now 38 for a whopping +14 on attacks and +21 on two-handed damage!), +10 to consitution, +2 to dexterity (or +8/+4, if you prefer), and regeneration 5!
How did you get those numbers? The Grand Mutagen adds +8 to one, +6 to another, and +4 to a third. Not +14, +10, and +2. Were you adding in True Mutagen (although if you were it'd be +14/+12/+10...)? If so, the APG Final was wrong when the True Mutagen said 'enhancement' bonus. Jason Bulmahn posted the correct info here.
Grr... I missed the True Mutagen Bit...
This should provide a +8 alchemical bonus to all physical ability scores, along with a -2 to all mental ability scores.
That is all for now.. I hope.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Of course, True + Grand wouldn't even work with a +6 enhancement item in the mix there, so I'm really not sure how you got your numbers. :D
Your guy with the 24 total strength would have a 32 when using a Grand Mutagen, not 38.
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I would point out that the Fast Bomb ability gives the alchemist an ability to make bombs faster -- it doesn't actually affect the bombs themselves -- only the speed the alchemist makes them at.
Things like explosive bomb specifically change the properties of the bomb itself.
That makes a lot of sense. In particular since the class is seriously weak without it. 47 points of damage to one target, splash damage, and stinking cloud is a respectable round of attacks at 10th level. Only works for 8 rounds or so at that level so I guess you fill the rest with poisoning and maybe some mutagens in melee.
How did you get those numbers?
The being a troll part and how that all stacks.
Grr... I missed the True Mutagen Bit...
This should provide a +8 alchemical bonus to all physical ability scores, along with a -2 to all mental ability scores.
Ah. That makes sense.