In my campaign i have a druid who's animal companion is the ape. at level 4 it becomes large, and gets some rather nice stat upgrades. it gets so nice, that it often outpowers our 2h fighter, who does great damage himself. not only that, the ape gets 3 attacks, which i thought was wrong but everything i read says it gets those attacks. (i dont understand why the animal progression gets multiattack when it pretty much already has it.) it seems a bit overpowered.
now, to be fair, the druid uses his spells to enhance the ape, making it quite powerful, things like bulls str, barkskin, magic fang.
the only justification i can think of is that the druid himself is merely support to the ape, which is his real characte(that's how it's run during dungeons/combat.)
has anyone else had any issues with this? are there any rules we are missing? the fighter is built to do damage, and is being outdamaged by an animal companion and it bothers him, and to some extent me also.
Multiattack simply allows the creature to attack with its secondary weapons at a lesser penalty than normal (normally secondary weapons are at -5, with Multiattack they are at -2). It can always attack with all of its natural weapons as a full attack. As a standard action, it gets 1 attack, as normal (usually the primary weapon).
So, the Ape's bite attack uses full BAB + STR mod - size mod, while the 2 claw attacks use that number -5 (-2 when it gets Multiattack at Druid level 9).
The Fighter should outdamage the Ape, if not for any other reason then because he is actually intelligent in his own right, rather than only obeying simple instructions.
Read the Handle Animal skill description thoroughly if you haven't done so already. While the Druid gets to do Handle Animal checks as a free action and with a +4 bonus, they should still not be an automatic check to make for him until he has a few levels.
And, even if the Fighter doesn't outdamage the Ape at the current level, he should do so very very soon. The Fighter gets equipment, magic weapons, and so on, plus when his BAB is higher, he gets iterative attacks. The Ape will never get more than 3 attacks.
What level are you at currently?
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darkprince83 wrote: In my campaign i have a druid who's animal companion is the ape. at level 4 it becomes large, and gets some rather nice stat upgrades. it gets so nice, that it often outpowers our 2h fighter, who does great damage himself. not only that, the ape gets 3 attacks, which i thought was wrong but everything i read says it gets those attacks. (i dont understand why the animal progression gets multiattack when it pretty much already has it.) it seems a bit overpowered.
I'm assuming that your characters are level 5 with the spells you've mentioned. Even then I don't see how your Fighter is getting out damaged unless he is doing something horribly wrong. Could you elaborate on their capabilities?
Assuming level 5 with a fighter of 18 str., on an attack a 2h fighter would like do 1d12,2d4 or 2d6 + 1.5xSTR damage depending on the weapon. Examples:
Greatsword +9 (2d6+6)
The Ape at Level 5 has a maximum of 22 str so on a standard action he does:
Bite +8 (1d6 + 9)
On a full attack the ape currently has the advantage of 2 extra claws making a full attack be:
Bite +8 (1d6 +6). 2 claws +3(1d6+6)
I can see a bit of a problem there but the advantages of the Ape in a full attack will be greatly diminished in the next level: When the fighter gets his second iterative attack on full attacks for:
Greatsword +10/+5 (2d6+6)
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now, to be fair, the druid uses his spells to enhance the ape, making it quite powerful, things like bulls str, barkskin, magic fang.
the only justification i can think of is that the druid himself is merely support to the ape, which is his real characte(that's how it's run during dungeons/combat.)
Now that explains the disparity you might be seeing. Have you thought of maybe talking with your Druid in private and having him share some of those buffs with your fighter? I'm sure the perceived inferiority will end.
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has anyone else had any issues with this? are there any rules we are missing? the fighter is built to do damage, and is being outdamaged by an animal companion and it bothers him, and to some extent me also.
This of course isn't taking into account that your Fighter likely has waaaaay more AC than the Ape making the ape easy pickings for creatures with low +attack.
I don't see how the fighter could be getting horribly outdamaged against a player but if it is actually happening then the disparity will likely diminish in a level or two.
i had though that somewhere in either the ph or MM that primary attacks only take a -2 when taking the full attack action, which bite and claw are considered.
the party is level 5.
THe fighter definately has an AC advantage, especially with +1 fullplate, but the ape has reach, which i hadn't prepared for when creating my adventure, but even when prepared for makes a big difference.
something that should be noted, with the ape's first stat increase, which i believe they get as well, the druid upped his Int to 3, allowing for a little bit more enhanced tactics, not much but it makes a difference.
the fighter does d10(bastard sword) +8/14 depending on power attack, and i think his to hit is 10 or 12. he definately hits more often.
about magical gear/weapons and armor, the ape can use some with feats, which he can take due to the 3 int. also, i should point out that in our group we've long house ruled that magical gear fits itself to any wearer, so a dwarf could don magical human armor, or an ape magical rings/boots.
i gave out a ring of pro+1 and boots of spiderclimbing. with the group's premission, he gave them to the ape. have you ever seen an ape run up the wall and on to the ceiling, then cannon ball onto kobalds? I have, and it made my brain stop. that's not really an example of it outdamaging the fighter, but it's one of the coolest things i've seen in D&D.
as for the druid handing out buffs to the group, not gonna happen much. that's a RP aspect of the player, whom at teh beginning of the campaign pointed out how he's not so much about nature/forests as he is animals, and using a spell to help a human when it could help his animal would be blasphemy. having said that, he sometimes prepares a spell an extra time, and will hand that out to the fighter, usually a barkskin right now.
We have since added a cleric to the group, who is built purely for support, so the fighter may be getting some much needed help.
i let my sister take my book home so i dont have all the other info, but i will after saturday night, so i'll should be able to give specifics.
darkprince83 wrote: i had though that somewhere in either the ph or MM that primary attacks only take a -2 when taking the full attack action, which bite and claw are considered. Reading it again, neither of us were right.. Attacks considered to be primary attacks are always at full BAB, with no penalty. Quite a change from the old days that.
darkprince83 wrote:
i gave out a ring of pro+1 and boots of spiderclimbing. with the group's premission, he gave them to the ape.
The Ape has a 30 ft Climb speed normally, so the Boots do nothing for it :)
Well, the Fighter should see a massive increase in the damage he does already at next level compared to the Ape, since he gets an additional attack then. He will only continue to get farther and farther ahead from then on, so while the Ape may seem very powerful now, it will be much less so soon.
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Are wrote:
Reading it again, neither of us were right.. Attacks considered to be primary attacks are always at full BAB, with no penalty. Quite a change from the old days that.
Wow, thanks for pointing that out. That is quite an interesting change. I've been mentally adjusting attack values based on the -5 for secondary attacks (thinking only one of them is a primary, rest are secondary) on most creatures in the Bestiary. Guess my players will be in for some surprises soon.
Unfortunately I had to ban druid pets. The pets were almost too powerful. Add the druid in the mix and it pushes it over the edge.
Some tips for DMs if they want to use pets. (basic nerfs)
- You control the pet. Don't let the player position it. it will attack the creature the druid needs it too, but you pick the squares.
- Count the pet for XP. You are gonna tick off players, but the pet is dong as much work as a player.
- It dies at zero. Like monsters it does not have neg HP. Kill it at zero.
- Make feeding it an issue. They will need to bring a spare horse as food for a tiger as an example.
- seriously consider not letting the pet up it's int at level 4. When you include player feats they get nasty. Real nasty.
Now if you are running a small group (1 or 2 players) forget everything I said. They work perfect in a small group.
It was mentioned above that the ape would get 1d6+9 with just the bite attack, and 1d6+6 on a full attack. This is actually incorrect. A creature with natural attacks only gets 1.5 str with an attack if that is the *only* natural attack it has, period. Not if it's the only one he uses in a given round.
A creature with 1 bite would get x1.5. A creature with 1 claw would get x1.5.
A creature with 1 bite and 2 claws would only get x1 on each (even if he moves and only uses one in a round). A creature with 2 claws would only get x1 on each.
I clarified this with James Jacobs a while back when updating the LoF monsters from 3.5 to PRPG.
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Karui Kage wrote: It was mentioned above that the ape would get 1d6+9 with just the bite attack, and 1d6+6 on a full attack. This is actually incorrect. A creature with natural attacks only gets 1.5 str with an attack if that is the *only* natural attack it has, period. Not if it's the only one he uses in a given round.
A creature with 1 bite would get x1.5. A creature with 1 claw would get x1.5.
A creature with 1 bite and 2 claws would only get x1 on each (even if he moves and only uses one in a round). A creature with 2 claws would only get x1 on each.
I clarified this with James Jacobs a while back when updating the LoF monsters from 3.5 to PRPG.
Ahh thanks for correcting me on that. I actually messed up a bit more since claws are natural weapons and wouldn't take a -5 to hit.
The ape gets no xp, period. It is an extension of the druid. When the druid dies, it reverts right back to being a standard ape, losing all those bonuses it had.
Druid animal companions are indeed very tough. If you truly are unable to handle it, knock them down to ranger progression, and that should take care of the problem. The spotlight should always be on the character, not his pet, unless the whole class is designed that way (i.e. the eidolon)
==Aelryinth
Random DM wrote: Unfortunately I had to ban druid pets. The pets were almost too powerful. Add the druid in the mix and it pushes it over the edge.
Some tips for DMs if they want to use pets. (basic nerfs)
- You control the pet. Don't let the player position it. it will attack the creature the druid needs it too, but you pick the squares.
- Count the pet for XP. You are gonna tick off players, but the pet is dong as much work as a player.
- It dies at zero. Like monsters it does not have neg HP. Kill it at zero.
- Make feeding it an issue. They will need to bring a spare horse as food for a tiger as an example.
- seriously consider not letting the pet up it's int at level 4. When you include player feats they get nasty. Real nasty.
Now if you are running a small group (1 or 2 players) forget everything I said. They work perfect in a small group.
You might as well ban them with those modifications. If the DM is controlling the pet as an animal, it certainly isn't doing as much work as a player. Most monsters can make quick work of an animal companion given their low ACs.
The biggest issue I have with the animal companions is the wide divergence in power. The Ape, Lion/Tiger, and Dinosaur are head and shoulders above the rest. Those three should probably be toned down a touch, and the others need some improvements. Especially at lower levels.
Around the mid-levels and beyond (8+), the animal companion becomes a complete waste. They're simply not capable of meaningfully participating in the types of encounters PCs should be facing at those levels.
Adam Ormond wrote: Random DM wrote: Unfortunately I had to ban druid pets. The pets were almost too powerful. Add the druid in the mix and it pushes it over the edge.
Some tips for DMs if they want to use pets. (basic nerfs)
- You control the pet. Don't let the player position it. it will attack the creature the druid needs it too, but you pick the squares.
- Count the pet for XP. You are gonna tick off players, but the pet is dong as much work as a player.
- It dies at zero. Like monsters it does not have neg HP. Kill it at zero.
- Make feeding it an issue. They will need to bring a spare horse as food for a tiger as an example.
- seriously consider not letting the pet up it's int at level 4. When you include player feats they get nasty. Real nasty.
Now if you are running a small group (1 or 2 players) forget everything I said. They work perfect in a small group.
You might as well ban them with those modifications. If the DM is controlling the pet as an animal, it certainly isn't doing as much work as a player. Most monsters can make quick work of an animal companion given their low ACs.
The biggest issue I have with the animal companions is the wide divergence in power. The Ape, Lion/Tiger, and Dinosaur are head and shoulders above the rest. Those three should probably be toned down a touch, and the others need some improvements. Especially at lower levels.
Around the mid-levels and beyond (8+), the animal companion becomes a complete waste. They're simply not capable of meaningfully participating in the types of encounters PCs should be facing at those levels. The companions become less useful at higher levels. They should have a way for the better ones to maintain their power.
Also, keep in mind the Druid is essentially giving up 1 spell per spell level and a domain power to have that animal companion. A minor sacrifice at early levels, but as I noted above, around 8th level or so that sacrifice evens out, and shortly after becomes a severe penalty.
Random DM wrote: Unfortunately I had to ban druid pets. The pets were almost too powerful. Add the druid in the mix and it pushes it over the edge.
Some tips for DMs if they want to use pets. (basic nerfs)
- You control the pet. Don't let the player position it. it will attack the creature the druid needs it too, but you pick the squares.
Even my 1 yr old nephew can figure out someone's reach and stay out of it even if he is not fast enough for it to matter.
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- Count the pet for XP. You are gonna tick off players, but the pet is dong as much work as a player.
If the pet is going to count for XP it should have PC priveleges. It is no where near as powerful as any of the classes.
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- It dies at zero. Like monsters it does not have neg HP. Kill it at zero.
Monsters don't die at zero by the rules. Most DM's don't take it to negative constitution because once the monster is down they know the challenge is defeated.
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- Make feeding it an issue. They will need to bring a spare horse as food for a tiger as an example.
Tigers know how to hunt, and druids have survival.
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- seriously consider not letting the pet up it's int at level 4. When you include player feats they get nasty. Real nasty.
Instead of nerfing the companion why not just ask how to handle the issues.
Random DM wrote: Unfortunately I had to ban druid pets. The pets were almost too powerful. Add the druid in the mix and it pushes it over the edge.
Some tips for DMs if they want to use pets. (basic nerfs)
- You control the pet. Don't let the player position it. it will attack the creature the druid needs it too, but you pick the squares.
Seems reasonable, unless the animal has human intelligence (3+) or the druid has taught it how to be directed to a specific attack pattern (likely a custom trick that would require the attack trick)
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- Count the pet for XP. You are gonna tick off players, but the pet is dong as much work as a player.
It's a class feature. Are you going to count XP for a Paladin's horse or a wizard's familiar? Maybe the monsters a Conjurer summons get xp too? Got to be universally fair about these things.
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- It dies at zero. Like monsters it does not have neg HP. Kill it at zero.
Woahhhh... what game are you playing? Maybe I've been using the rules wrong all these years, but the only monsters that I've ever had 'die' at 0 HP were undead and constructs. Everything else got the same 'unconscious/dying' process as PC's. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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- Make feeding it an issue. They will need to bring a spare horse as food for a tiger as an example.
Depends on how you want your game. Some types I could totally see that being an issue for, but if you don't care about keeping track of feeding for PC's you really shouldn't make it an issue for the animal either. (Also, depending on the environment animals very well may be able to fend for themselves)
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- seriously consider not letting the pet up it's int at level 4. When you include player feats they get nasty. Real nasty.
Would you mind giving some examples of things that would disbalance the game? Animals can already take power attack (read: The best melee combat feat in the game.)
Also, for what it's worth, I really like the idea of intelligent (even talking sometimes) animals. Hell, even lassy was a LOT smarter than 2 int. I'd have to say around 6 by my perspective.
Random DM wrote: Unfortunately I had to ban druid pets. The pets were almost too powerful. Add the druid in the mix and it pushes it over the edge.
Some tips for DMs if they want to use pets. (basic nerfs)
- You control the pet. Don't let the player position it. it will attack the creature the druid needs it too, but you pick the squares.
- Count the pet for XP. You are gonna tick off players, but the pet is dong as much work as a player.
- It dies at zero. Like monsters it does not have neg HP. Kill it at zero.
- Make feeding it an issue. They will need to bring a spare horse as food for a tiger as an example.
- seriously consider not letting the pet up it's int at level 4. When you include player feats they get nasty. Real nasty.
Now if you are running a small group (1 or 2 players) forget everything I said. They work perfect in a small group.
I agree with the first point (DM should handle the animal, requiring the druid/ranger to use tricks to tell it which creatures to attack, when to come back, etc.) but I still would play it 'appropriately'. It's got a low Int but has some instincts.
The rest... gah. That's a bit too much of a nerf if you ask me. A *huge* bit of a nerf. No agreement on those points.
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