Backwards compatibility.
Archmage is gone, too.
I agree with him: the assassin, especially as it is now, would have made a good set of talents/advanced talents.
stuff about ignoring WBL
A lot of DM's run premade's and even one's that don't will not ignore the WBL completely. They wont do the math, but I can usually get a good feel for when a player has too much stuff. Not every group crafts items either, and if you are going to compare classes we should used the same guidelines so everyone is on the same page. The official guideline is the WBL chart.
They want the prestige of becoming an Assassin.
Prestige doesn't come from using a piece of game mechanic. Prestige comes from doing prestigious stuff and being prestigious.
You become an assassin when you become infamous for taking out hits.
The sooner you realise that the sooner you become feared as someone who will kill everyone for the right price. Stamping your feet and throwing a tantrum, shouting "BUT I AM AN ASSASSIN! I *WANT* PRESTIGE!"
Just a quick thing here - I think it’s pretty clear the rogue fares better than an assassin, period.
*designer’s prejudice/aesthetics favoring single, core class design
*mechanical rewards for progressing in this fashion
*MAD, possibly worse than a Rogue on account of the Int importance where a rogue has the cushion of added sp/level … and the fact that it’d be a good idea to, you know, *HIT* the mark to use the death attack in the first place
The one thing I will defend, though, is that the assassin/rogue need not lose bab points and can actually come out ahead – depending on his build (and jumping out of class by 18th level overall).
1) Build a rogue to 8th level and delay entry to Assassin levels this way = no net loss/slow down in bab progression that a rogue would normally be entitled to.
2) After hitting level 10 assassin (18th overall) just jump into a full-bab class. By this point, presumably, the character will have significant skills developed by his rogue and assassin levels in combination w/a higher Int than a pure rogue (assumption here given importance of int on the PrC’s claim to fame).
**Net gain of d10 HD for levels 19 and 20 = increases survivability (especially rolling on the higher end.
**Net gain of +2 BAB = +1 MORE than a straight class rogue
**Net gain of wpn and armor proficiencies (the use of which does NOTHING to really hinder his abilities by too much – armor check penalties suck, but at least he can “heavy up” in a normal party situation and then sneak off to be all “I KILL YOU!” later, and/or be more able to be competent and an ally in flanking situations to, again, open up opportunities for using the ability.) Armor can be bad in stealthing/sneaking, but it’ll be fine for using in-close and w/group dynamics. He also gets to use the “big guns” of weaponry – whatever they may be. He’ll likely (being a rogue though) still stick to the lighter armaments to make use of earlier feat/talent selections.
**Net loss of 4+ int skills (essentially only 4 sp’s in total for this dip, though, given the higher over all int = higher sp’s regardless).
So … yeah. Rogue/Assassin << Rogue <<Rogue/Assassin/Fighter as regards bab and group functioning.
Overall class power, though: Rogue/Assassin<<Rogue/Assassin/Fighter<<Rogue on account of that level 20 master strike and the advance talents.
Points of interest as I look more closely:
Master Strike (Rogue) is only usable 1/24hrs for any given target – save or fail. It has an equivalent DC as the Assassin’s death strike by then,
Death attack (Assassin) is usable every 3 rounds of study, and even more often higher up in levels.
HOWEVER at every point before this the assassin will have his death attack up and usable. Advantage in power = Assassin in lower levels, and even at 20th for the rogue (but can *only* catch up there, where the assassin can cap-out by 18th level).
Advantage in use/availability = Assassin again. The rouge can just do this 1/target/24 hours. The assassin can do this 1/3 rounds of “study” of a target … that’s a LOT of uses that can pile up. He can also 1/day instantly forgo the need to “study” the target at all by level 17.
So … yeah, for what it’s worth, I must say that if “death attack” is the measure of effective here, it’s effective, but SLOW to use. Level 19 is kind of late to make him combat capable (ie: group capable and a contributor) and IMO, until that point it’s going to be a pain in the ass to keep this yutz that would rather be alone offin’ marks in the party. I mean … seriously … *why* would such a character even *be* in the party in the first place?
Death Attack is an iconic that got buried into a lame prestige class when it could have been a super cool rogue advanced talent (along with poison use).
As written it either takes an extremely specialized ("gimped") build to work reliably or is a seldom used "roleplay" ability better reserved for NPCs.
As a rogue talent it could be a 1/day "finger of death" which could be enhanced by the "not coming back" ability by taking a second talent.
And about 30 Int:
While I agree that most dedicated classes can have a stat that high, how many will pump their tertiary stat this way?
Without Dex you will not hit, without Con you will not survive to the day that you can finally use the death attack the first time...
This is a fine example of what happens when someone looks at a char and only considers the Level n build, but not how incredibly sucky it will be to get there!
My group and I ARE accustomed to high point buy (25), but last night we all got together and talked about whether we could realistically meet our ability score requirement needs (one score over 30 and a second at ~24) with a lower point buy and we came to the conclusion that WE ABSOLUTELY COULD. We mathematically proved that we could do it with even a 10-pt. buy, the lowest the game offers.
The only time you can't make a decent character with such high scores is if you are playing a class that is super MAD such as a monk or paladin.
With 10 points you can start off with one 16 and all others at 10.
Add on 16 points to your primary attribute for levels, headband, and tome. That gives you a 32. Might get 34 with the right race, might get 30 if you can't afford the best tome or if you don't put all your level points into it. Either way, there is no reason you shouldn't have at least a 30 by high levels.
Your secondary attribute could easily get as high as 23 (base 10, 6 item, 5 tome, 2 race), though it will likely be around 20-22 depending on your situation (it will actually slightly be higher if you don't put all your level points into your primary).
So right there, in the lowest point buy offered, I have a 32 Intelligence/22 Dexterity assassin ready to kick ass. He can't deal much damage, but he's got death attack and sneak attack. He can't take much of a beating, but he doesn't fight enemies head on anyways.
If I was willing to have dump stats (7s and 8s) I can shore up other ability scores or get my primary and secondary even higher.
Some groups may make it hard to achieve than others (no item creation or not much crafting time), but that just means the players aren't being assertive to their GM. If our group wants some free down time for any reason, we ask our GM and, if circumstances permit (the world isn't ending), he gives it to us. Why? Because we control our characters not him.
If you don' have enough downtime to use the resources you've invested in (item creation feats) than that IS the fault of either you or your GM and should be dealt with in the same manner as if you were having difficulty using any other resource of your character.
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Proper assassin build has it start at rogue 8, not rogue 5; this circumvents the loss of BAB nicely.
Sadly, the death attack is pretty poor in a party setting; as is he ability to death attack and stay hidden.
I think the assassin is a great NPC tool; a very scary adversary to have skulking around waiting for that strike. But as a PC I would agree with your player; Paizo did a great job on rogue talents, while nerfing the biggest benefit of an already-mediocre class. Aside from the trickster "cheat" I would never consider an assassin; even if I wanted it for roleplaying I'd just make a rogue with the alchemy skill and make poisons and call it a day.
I'm just wondering if everyone has missed this about the Death Attack or if DMs usually just handwave it:
Death Attack (Ex): If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice). Studying the victim is a standard action. The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy (although the attack might still be a sneak attack if the target is denied his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class or is flanked). If the victim of such a death attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + the assassin's Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.
If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack. Emphasis mine.
This basically means that the assassin can't even use his primary attack in combat. Assassin is useless as a regular adventurer. Houserule it or ignore it.
I'm just wondering if everyone has missed this about the Death Attack or if DMs usually just handwave it:
Death Attack (Ex): If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice). Studying the victim is a standard action. The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy (although the attack might still be a sneak attack if the target is denied his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class or is flanked). If the victim of such a death attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + the assassin's Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.
If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack. Emphasis mine.
This basically means that the assassin can't even use his primary attack in combat. Assassin is useless as a regular adventurer. Houserule it or ignore it.
And now I am truly convinced of the assassin's inadequacies.
You could take 7 Levels of Wizard(/8 Sorceror) for Improved Invisibility. Then you wouldn't be detected (unless they are spell casters with See invisibility, Glitterdust, etc).
Granted, 7 Wizard (/8 Sorceror ) levels is a big investment to even use your class feature.
And now I am truly convinced of the assassin's inadequacies.
That restriction wouldn't be so bad if the assassin still received spells.
You could take 7 Levels of Wizard(/8 Sorceror) for Improved Invisibility. Then you wouldn't be detected (unless they are spell casters with See invisibility, Glitterdust, etc).
Yeah, but instead of going assassin, such a character (most likely wizard, because sorcerers wouldn't have the smarts to even use that death attack properly) would most likely just stay a wizard - a wizard can pull off a strong focus on intelligence much better than an assassin, and staying wizard will put that intelligence to far better uses, as you'll be able to use it all the time.
And they get enough effects to really bugger an enemy in three rounds or a lot less: Phantasmal killer might require two saves, but you can do it whenever you want, and stuff like enervation, baleful polymorph, feeblemind and so on is pretty neat, too.
Note, though, that 3 levels or wizard would be enough: You only need regular invisbility (since your one shot at death attacking the bloke will be gone with your first attack, anyway - though the improved version does come in handy in the getaway). You could even get that from the ring of invisibility (though that's not cheap).
That restriction wouldn't be so bad if the assassin still received spells.
And now I am truly convinced of the assassin's inadequacies.
I also always though that the spells made the class. But now it's fit for a couple of rogue talents, as the class abilities don't warrant their own class, and it's not exactly an exciting, special concept. We're not talking Red Mantis Operatives here, or Chelish Imperial Assassin, or anything - just run-of-the-mill hitman, something I consider a core occupation for rogues.
Roguish PrCs make little sense, anyway: They'll end up either as a virtual rogue clone or specialise in one little thing (without making you that much better at it than a rogue) while giving up way too much in return.
So PrCs that have rogues as their target group need to bring rogues something they cannot pull off otherwise - AND have an interesting concept to back up the rules.
Everything else belongs into feats or rogue talents.
That goes for a lot of PrCs, by the way: a lot of them could be achieved as feat chains or alternative/additional class abilities, and I had the idea for "prestige paths" back in the early 3.5e days (prestige paths being something you'd get in addition to everything else. It would work a bit like a Class Change as seen in some of the Final Fantasy games and off-shoots)
And now I am truly convinced of the assassin's inadequacies.I'm just wondering if everyone has missed this about the Death Attack or if DMs usually just handwave it:
Death Attack (Ex): If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice). Studying the victim is a standard action. The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy (although the attack might still be a sneak attack if the target is denied his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class or is flanked). If the victim of such a death attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + the assassin's Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.
If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack. Emphasis mine.
This basically means that the assassin can't even use his primary attack in combat. Assassin is useless as a regular adventurer. Houserule it or ignore it.
OMG!!!!
Wow ... that ... well .. that certainly leaves it as SUCK-city now. Forget all else I said before. If it's only on "non-violently attacked" targets, he's only going to EVER get 1 chance in the first place. Unless he goes all attack (after 3 rounds of study), then immediately follows w/Hide in Plain Sight, and sits around for another 3 rounds trying to avoid detection ... to do it again. Meanwhile ... his buddies are carving up the place.
Not good ... stripped of spells, Assassin PrC really *does* suck - it doesn't even have the "special" tricks of assassination anymore (ie: the spell list).
WOW! I can now officially point to this PrC as proof positive that Piazo HATES PrC's as a whole.
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Some prestige classes have always been more meant for NPCs, in my mind. I think now that the Assassin is one of them. Especially since most "Evil only" prestige classes were usually built to be NPCs, as the designers usually assume non-evil parties as the default.
As an NPC, the assassin could just be going after one PC, or could have rogue thugs to help distract the PCs while he popped in and out with Stealth/invisibility to set up the next death attack, etc.
My group and I ARE accustomed to high point buy (25), but last night we all got together and talked about whether we could realistically meet our ability score requirement needs (one score over 30 and a second at ~24) with a lower point buy and we came to the conclusion that WE ABSOLUTELY COULD. We mathematically proved that we could do it with even a 10-pt. buy, the lowest the game offers.
The only time you can't make a decent character with such high scores is if you are playing a class that is super MAD such as a monk or paladin.
With 10 points you can start off with one 16 and all others at 10.
Add on 16 points to your primary attribute for levels, headband, and tome. That gives you a 32. Might get 34 with the right race, might get 30 if you can't afford the best tome or if you don't put all your level points into it. Either way, there is no reason you shouldn't have at least a 30 by high levels.
Your secondary attribute could easily get as high as 23 (base 10, 6 item, 5 tome, 2 race), though it will likely be around 20-22 depending on your situation (it will actually slightly be higher if you don't put all your level points into your primary).
So right there, in the lowest point buy offered, I have a 32 Intelligence/22 Dexterity assassin ready to kick ass. He can't deal much damage, but he's got death attack and sneak attack. He can't take much of a beating, but he doesn't fight enemies head on anyways.
If I was willing to have dump stats (7s and 8s) I can shore up other ability scores or get my primary and secondary even higher.
Some groups may make it hard to achieve than others (no item creation or not much crafting time), but that just means the players aren't being assertive to their GM. If our group wants some free down time for any reason, we ask our GM and, if circumstances permit (the world isn't ending), he gives it to us. Why? Because we control our characters not him.
If you don' have enough downtime to use the resources you've invested in (item creation feats) than that...
Not all campaign allow for downtime. Imagine the adventures are in the modern world. It is not realistic to expect for the world to work on the PC's time table.
------PC1: We need time to build weapon X to stop the terrorist from exploding a nuke in the middle of Times Square.
PC2: I will send the bad guys a note to hold off on their plans until we get ready for them.
Terrorist: Sure we will wait <evil laughter follows>
<insert random time> later: Times Square is Nuked.
PC3:Ah man they did not wait for us. :(
Some prestige classes have always been more meant for NPCs, in my mind. I think now that the Assassin is one of them. Especially since most "Evil only" prestige classes were usually built to be NPCs, as the designers usually assume non-evil parties as the default.
As an NPC, the assassin could just be going after one PC, or could have rogue thugs to help distract the PCs while he popped in and out with Stealth/invisibility to set up the next death attack, etc.
There are a few things that are DM friendly. An example is a feat in the player's handbook 2 that allows you to shoot one crossbow bolt through several enemies if they are lined up. The chances of that taking place if you are a PC is very unlikely, but the DM can set it up easily since he makes the maps. The Assassin is a DM's prestige class.
The Assassin is a DM's prestige class.
More like: Pathfinder version of assassin is a DM's Prestige class.
The 3.5 version is perfectly viable. It has spells that give it the ability to not be detected so it can Death Attack (although it does not have the Quick Death attack ability except though a spell).
If you want to be an Assassin I'd ask my DM if you could play the SRD version instead of the PSRD version.
The Assassin is a DM's prestige class.More like: Pathfinder version of assassin is a DM's Prestige class.
The 3.5 version is perfectly viable. It has spells that give it the ability to not be detected so it can Death Attack (although it does not have the Quick Death attack ability except though a spell).
If you want to be an Assassin I'd ask my DM if you could play the SRD version instead of the PSRD version.
I never liked the idea of an assassin using spells. He is so badass(or should be) that in a land magic he does not need it. I know the current assassin does not fit the bill, but I would like one that does.
I think they got rid of the spells because of the red mantis assassin, and I would agree to let my players use the SRD one.
Well ... what if the Assassin (PF's version) had a Full BAB progression instead of the 3/4 that it currently has .... would *that* fix perceived problems?
I mean ... they dropped the spell part entirely and have made it an outright *martial* type of class.
I mean, Death Attack is still super-nerfed and damn near impossible for them to use more than 1 time EVER ... but, at least they'll be tougher (ie: d10 hd's) and more likely to hit when they try in the first place.
:shrugs:
Well ... what if the Assassin (PF's version) had a Full BAB progression instead of the 3/4 that it currently has .... would *that* fix perceived problems?
It would be a good start.
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Sure; that'd do it without even HP. Full BAB + sneak attack full progression is nasty on its own; potentially unbalancing, though maybe not; rogue SHOULD win the DPR race in ideal circumstances (getting sneak and full attack), but doesn't. As a PC classs the whole rest of the class is ignorable though (it would be played only for the damage potential of full BAB with sneak) and as an NPC class it's a dangerous trap already, so i'd say leave it.
Make "death attack" a rogue talent based on sneak attack dice, then make Assassin a prestige class with "death attack" as a prerequisite, all of the "death attack" enhancing features (Swift Death, True Death, etc), plus full BAB and sneak attack progression.
Sure; that'd do it without even HP. Full BAB + sneak attack full progression is nasty on its own; potentially unbalancing, though maybe not;
I say not.
There's a simple fighter variant that trades bonus feats for sneak attack, and I didn't consider that unbalanced.
If you're martial and that's your thing to go for, go for it.
Unless the GM floods you with brain-dead enemies, you won't be able to pull off a full attack worth of sneak attacks every round.
rogue SHOULD win the DPR race in ideal circumstances (getting sneak and full attack), but doesn't.
Nah. Rogues aren't martial. They should get close to martial classes, but I don't think they need to surpass warriors, even in special circumstances.
As a PC classs the whole rest of the class is ignorable though (it would be played only for the damage potential of full BAB with sneak)
We're talking about assassin here, right?
Hmm .... the more I think of it, granting the current Assassin full BAB and d10 HD may be *perfect* for making the concept more tenable.
As it stands - Death Attack is suck-city, so ... this becomes the opening attack/maneuver/whatever of the Assassin character.
Maybe he moves ahead ('cuz he's sneaky and stuff) and finds the most dangerous target or something but still staying within earshot of his pals "over that-a-ways" so that they can haul (like triple move "run" haul) to get to the scene when stuff gets crazy-like and they hear it.
So, he picks the nasty target and dive-attacks 'em - HARD (death attack) it's the "surprise" round and he should be the only one active at the moment. Causes a commotion and the pals can hear on this round and/or next and be ready to move in by that time to join in the fun.
If the target drops (enemy casters are freakin' YUMMY for this move right there), fantastic - it becomes that much easier for 'em. If not ... beat 'em to a bloody pulp on the next initiative round (ie: when everyone else gets a chance to act - including your buddies "that-a-ways" within earshot).
So ... what *other* possible edge do these guys bring? Hmm ... oh yeah! It's been waved off before as a rogue-centric build, but our assassin-boy is a poison-specialist ... a full bab wielding poison-specialist. Hell ... he *could* be full on fighter classed into Assassin honestly (5 skill ranks in 2 skills is quite manageable by a pretty intelligent fighter. Especially if you use that scholarly/smart fighter feat alternative class feature at level 1 and invest in intelligence a bit).
So ... yeah ... a poison-weapon using assassin w/full bab and sneak attack ... yeah ... this spells "holy suck" to me if you're not expecting it (and if done right, you shouldn't be). He can forgo the heavy armors, etc in favor of bracers to keep the stealth up, etc.
If he's high enough in level, he can use that 1/day INSTANT Death Attack w/no rounds of study on either (a) the same target again, or (b) some other target close enough to engage. Invest in Combat Expertise for boosting defenses in the opening rounds to last long enough for aid to come, and then in the Feint-feats to up his damage w/the sneak attacks.
This is starting to sound really, *quite* playable and effective to me now ... but that's only with the D10 hd and the full bab added to the existing templates. It also assumes GM generosity regarding the use of poisons (ie: letting the class actually do what it's supposed to do).
Looks fairly good to me Speaker (of course, I argued for full BAB during the Beta when they told us the spells were leaving, whole lot of good it did....) but the one change I would suggest is raising the skill points to 6 per level.
Hell ... ANYTHING's an improvement from the Fighter's 2+ if that's where you start ... ;-)
I wouldn't be opposed to that addition myself, though. Of course, I also don't buy into the "PrC's should SUCK" paradigm either.
;-)
He can forgo the heavy armors, etc in favor of bracers to keep the stealth up, etc.
We are talking Fighter, right? At 7th level Fighter, he has a +2 bonus to armor check penalties and Dex bonus.
With mithral, that's a breastplate of +6 armor, and max Dex of +7, no armor check penalty, and no movement penalty.Or, a mithral fullplate will be +9 armor, +5 max Dex, only a -1 armor check penalty, and no movement penalty.
Note that the glamered (it doesn't even look like armor!), and shadow (+stealth) armor enhancements are flat rates, not pluses.
A Fighter also has access to Weapon Mastery 2 if it's a Fighter 10/Assassin 10 build, and can have access to Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.
Plus, as a high int build (for Death attack), he can go the route of crowd control (Combat Expertise for Greater Trip, Whirlwind attack).
I can imagine a high level Fighter/Assassin initiating combat by stealthing to a weak, low Fortitude target like a spellcaster, doing his death attack with a poison loaded weapon (in case the death attack is resisted), and then snaps his fingers as his glove of storing holding his reach weapon kicks in and he whirlwind attacks anyone within reach with greater trip and combat reflexes (and sneak attack if you went before anyone else on the following round).
And you are fully armored, high hitpoints, and high attack rolls. In other words, you other role (other than sneaking/death attack) is to be in the thick of it anyways.
.
If you are looking at making a "I'm so badass I don't need spells", I think that's as close as you are going to get.
And ... that is all true. So, the concept doesn't even NEED bracers (though mythril gear seems key) to be bad-ass, or keep his stealthy stuff in place.
ALSO, if we go back to E.R. Burroughs' "Mars" novels (especially A Swordsman of Mars), Gygax's initial inspiration for the assassin base class, we see assassins as sword-wielding, full BAB opponents.
I thought that the spell-less assassin only advantage over a 3.5 version with a good selection of feats and spells was the true death and angel of death abilities, but I just found out that a 3.5 feat (Harvester of souls, Elder Evils) granted a surer way to make death permanent.
This class was indeed pointlessly nerfed.