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So, I have a player going for dragon disciple and I have a couple questions.
1: Does the barbarian rage power animal fury stack with the dds claw/bite routine? I.E., can a dd take TWO bite attacks, albeit the 2nd one at a -5 penalty in combination with the normal claw/claw/bite routine?
I would no, they only get 1 bite attack. You get the following options...
• If raging, but not using claws that round, they get their normal attack progression with weapons, as defined by BAB, plus a bite at -5 from their top attack.• If not raging, but using claws, they get a claw, claw, bite progression, with no negative penalty on the bite.
• If both raging and using claws, they get a claw, claw, bite progression, with no negative penalty on the bite, though all attacks gain the strength bonus of the rage.
2: If (1) is correct, can he use a weapon in conjunction with his bite attack(s)? Say bab +11 - Greataxe +9, +4, -1, Bite +9, +4? (for the purpose of this thought experiment, no other bonuses such as strength, magic, etc are factored in).
No, see above. I suppose you could use a round of your claws, attack with weapons instead, then still get your draconic bite to avoid the -5, but that seems like a kinda waste in most cases.
That's my 2 copper anyways.
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So, I have a player going for dragon disciple and I have a couple questions.
1: Does the barbarian rage power animal fury stack with the dds claw/bite routine? I.E., can a dd take TWO bite attacks, albeit the 2nd one at a -5 penalty in combination with the normal claw/claw/bite routine?
No, it wouldn't. The animal fury ability gives the barbarian a bite attack. The dragon disciple prestige class also gives a character a bite attack. Unless that character has more than one mouth with which to bite, one of those abilities is redundant.
The second sentence of animal fury is mechanically identical to how manufactured weapons and natural attacks interact, which is the intent of the ability's function. Furthermore, if the dragon disciple's natural attacks are used in conjunction with manufactured weapons, the natural attacks are considered secondary (as is the norm for natural attacks) - which means they also take a -5 penalty to the attack roll.
So a barbarian/dragon disciple with a BAB of +11 would have an attack routine like so:
greataxe +11/+6 (1d12) and bite +6 (1d4)
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Each claw/bite has to be attributed to a particular part of the body.
Bite is obviously with the mouth. Claws are going to be with the hands. So your barbarian/sorcerer or bard/dragon disciple can pick:
animal fury bite 1d4 (-5 to hit)
or the dragon disciple version which doesn't have the -5 to hit *yet*, and deals more damage.
However, the dragon disciple only gets the bite when he grows his claws, which means that the character only has limited uses of that bite each day.
Also, if the character makes bite/claw/claw attack, then the character can't attack with martial weapons. These attacks also don't get iterative attacks from having a high bab. And, if the character drops a claw attack or two in order to attack with a weapon instead, then his bite attack is at a -5 again.
In your example, he could make his greatsword attacks, and then his bite attack with the penalties.
The character would need 5 ranks in arcana, plus either one sorcerer level or one bard level.
So entry would be sorcerer 1/barbarian 4/dragon disciple 10 before the bab gets up to +11.
Note that the character is a 15th level character before he gets there in this manner.
If he goes sorcerer 1/ barbarian 4/ dragon disciple 2/barbarian 6
he'll be a 13th level character
It doesn't look like it'll be that unbalanced.
Heck, a twf build would have 3 attacks main-hand and 3 attacks offhand. A ranger twf build would even have similar stats as your example character.
Just note that the full attack action must be used to make more than one attack.
Page 302 in the bestiary talks about using natural attacks and attacks made with weapons at the same time.
"Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type."
"Secondary attacks are made using the creatures base attack bonus -5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls."
His attack chain would look like this:
bab +11 - Greataxe +11/+6/+1 Bite +6
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Oh, I think I see your confusion.
The section from "In addition", to "reduce these penalties", has been errated out. You should be using the entry from the bestiary page 302, which is what I referenced in my post.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq#TOC-Improved-Natural-Attack-f eat-11-4-0
That's a link to the d20 pathfinder faq, with the twf and natural attack thing mentioned at the very bottom of the page.
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It's +11/+6/+1 for the greataxe and +6 with the bite. The twf thing is contradictory to the bestiary and James jacob clarified the issue to use the bestiary and not the pfcrb instead.
The monk works a bit differently. Are you flurrying or not? If you mean a flurry ab of +11, then you'll have an actual bab of +9. If you mean an actual bab of +11, then your flurry ab will be +13
From the monk entry of unarmed strike:
"A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks."
So if you flurry, you lose out on your natural attacks, whether they're from barbarian or dragon disciple.
If you don't flurry, you'll get the natural attacks, but you don't get to apply your monk unarmed damage since that damage only applies to unarmed strikes.
And an unarmed strike is a different attack than a natural attack.
For example, if you were a lvl 15 monk, you could get six attacks at 13/13/8/8/3/3 dealing 2d8 base damage, all dealing strength damage.
If you were, instead a lvl 12 monk, 1st lvl sorcerer, lvl 2 dragon disciple, you could either flurry normally for:
11/11/6/6/1 for 2d6 + str or you could attack with normal attacks and bite/claw attacks:
/10/5 unarmed strikes 2d6, bite +5 1d4 + 1/2 str, + 2 claw attacks +5 for 1d4 + 1/2 str
To lay it out simply, the flurrying monk in that build has:
11/11/6/6/1 dealing a total of 10d6 damage + str x 5
or 10-60 damage
The natural attacking monk has:
10/5/5/5/5 dealing a total of 5d6 + 2d4 damage + str x two + 1/2 str x 3
or 7-38 damage
Even with the two claws and the bite, the monk is clearly better flurrying than using those natural attacks. Also note that the higher the str bonus the more the flurry monk benefits over the n/a monk. For every four points of strength, the flurry monk gains a potential total of +10 damage. The natural attacking monk potentially gains +7 points of damage.
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I'm inclined to say his claw/bite has to act as secondary weapons, even though they aren't manufactured weapons, since the monk strikes as if armed.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as a manufactured weapon (at least for spells and similar effects), so it's reasonable to make a monk's other natural attacks secondary.
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In order to get the dragon disciple bite attack, he needs two levels there. Which means he needs at least one level in sorcerer.
So I calculated the bab based on a total character level of 15. That's why the monk using regular unarmed strikes and natural weapons has one less bab than the straight monk.
I did say that his claw/bite attacks would be treated as secondary, and I tried to show why going that route would be suboptimal.
in your monk4/p2/s2/dd8/ek/5 can you clarify what each class is supposed to be?
Monk 4/ Paladin2???/sorcerer 2?/Dragon Disciple 8/ eldritch knight5?
Well, clearly you'd want the robe of the monk here to boost your unarmed damage.
Monk 4 = 3 bab
Pal 2 = 2 bab
Sorc 2 = 1 bab
DD 8 = 6 bab
EK 5 = 5 bab
Total bab 17
But you're a lvl 21 character.
1d10 unarmed damage with the robe. You'd get 17/12/7 unarmed, then your two claw attacks and your bite attack each at 12/12/12
Total attack range would be 17/12/12/12/7 for 3d10, 1d6, 2d4, or a total of 6-44 damage.
A monk lvl 20 would have seven attacks at a higher bonus dealing 2d10 each, or 14-140 damage.
A this point, you'd have 2 caster levels from sorcerer, six from DD, four from Eldritch Knight. A 12th lvl sorcerer can cast *barely* 6th lvl spells. So at this point, you'd be deciding each round to either attack for 6-44 damage, or chain lightning for 12d6 damage, and up to 12 secondary targets for the same damage. Or potentially 144d6.
Plus, you need wisdom for the monk ac bonus, dexterity because you won't be wearing any armor, charisma for the sorcerer spells, con to survive in melee... the character will be fairly MAD.