For my Return of Circe idea, I was thinking I might need to detail the requirements to become a demi-god, because some NPCs, such as Circe herself, might be on the way to actually doing this.
My ideas tend to be my own, but I'll take any constructive criticism or comments.
To become a demi-god, i.e a Rank 1 Deity, you must meet the following criteria:
1. Sixty or more hit dice. This keeps out the riff-raff
2. At least 21 levels in a class or prestige class. This shows that you have deep understanding of something. Typically this class will be connected to your intended portfolio, e.g. Fighter for martial deities, Wizard for magic deities, Druid for nature deities.
3. Mastery of at least 2 domain classes. Domain classes are special classes available starting about 36th level, and match the domains that you will be providing to your clerics. Mastery is attained when you gain the 10th level of your domain class. As you master a domain class, you can grant domain spells and abilities to your followers.
4. At least 78 worshippers, with a combined total of at least 144 class levels.
One of my thoughts is that each divine rank about 1 is equivalent to another 60 class levels, putting a Rank 20 deity at level 1200+, and quite far beyond anything that I intend to stat.
Don't know if you allow 3pp stuff if your game, but if so, you might want to check out two of our products:
The Genius Guide to the Godling
The Genius Guide to Mystical Godlings
The first presents 2 base classes and 1 prestige class focused on being semi-divine, with the base class having a capstone ability of Demigod.
Mystical Godlings takes the ideas in the first book and applies it to spell casters.
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
It would be nice to know what exactly you want. If you only want ultra-powerful mortals who can convince people to worship them becoming gods your ideas work well, if you want gods like Iomedae it won't work. Also I see a few problems.
1) 60 or more hit dice? If that's achievable in your world you will also get those who don't make the cut, not becoming gods, but becoming hard to kill or immortal on their own. Meaning your campaign world will have a lot of characters between 21 and 59. I can hardly imagine that the gods grow to 60 in a vaccuum while everybody else stops at 20.
2) At least 21 levels in ONE class? What if somebody is chaotic and wants to become the gods of jack-of-all-trades?
3) Domain-classes. You can grant followers spells at least 14 levels before you are a god? What are you at that time?
4) 78 worshippers. Same problem as with the domain classes. If you're not a god yet, why should people pray to you? And if you can learn to grant spells and do everything else god-like with a domain class why do you need your worshipers before your ascension?
I think it is extraordinary difficult to make rules for divine ascension. Basic D&D had the Immortal rules waaay back, and a system of epic quests that could lead towards immortality. Within Golarion, the Test of the Starstone is one story element leading towards godhood. I would not set any game mechanics for becoming a god, but rather try to capture this story-wise.
Perhaps Circe needs to succeed at a truly epic task, like changing all men of the world into monsters, as you described in your idea, and that is her final step into godhood.
Oh, and divine blood may be a prerequisite for even attempting to become a true god - Heracles´ twelve legendary tasks might have been his quest for true godhood, but he might not have been able to succeed had he not been of divine blood to begin with.
Stefan
I'm not quite sure whether the requirement should be 60 hit dice or 40 hit dice, but for the moment I am leaning toward the more stringent requirement.
My idea is that characters of 21-30 level are epic level characters, the Gandalfs and Elminsters and Beowulfs of the world. Then there is an area, starting around 36th level or so, where the character starts to develop god-like attributes. Finally, at some point they can become actual "gods", although in the RPG world it is hard to really define exactly what a "god" is.
I probably need some way to quantify the benefits of worshipping a non-"god" being. Navarion with point 4) points out one benefit: characters in the range 41-59 are able to grand spells and abilities, but don't have all the powers that a Rank 1 Deity has.
To address Navarion's points:
1) The intention is to create a grey area with character that are greater than "epic" but not quite "gods". It is very difficult to achieve the 60 HD level; it helps if you are a dragon or something like that. The odds against a human making it are astronomical, but sometimes, on some worlds, it happens.
2) To become a "god" requires a deep understanding. If you want to triple-class, you can still make it either by concentrating on one class and taking a few levels in other classes, or by persevering to 81st level.
3) While you are working on your first two domain classes, you are a quasi-demigod. You can grant spells to your followers, but can't sponsor clerics or druids. There may be other abilities you can grant.
One model I have is that of Kim Possible, who somehow is able to grant martial arts abilities to those who hang out with her. In my system she might be like a 38th level Monk, and if she put her mind to it she could become a martial arts god after another 22 levels.
In my own homebrew, I have a god who started out as a Barbarian and just got more powerful until people started worshipping him and he became a god.
4) One thing I need is to outline the benefits of worshipping beings who are not "gods". They don't get the powerful patron that worshippers of gods get, but frequently they do get more personalized service. I mean, just *try* to get Odin's attention when he's not around...
There may be shortcuts available, especially if you have backing from existing deities. A deity of sufficient rank (perhaps rank 11 or higher) could just grant you divine rank. Or if you have the backing of an existing deity, they could help you set up worshippers and give you hit dice.
There could even be campaign artifacts that grant divinity, although those would be very very powerful and rare, requiring the abilities of at least a rank 17 deity to make.
I believe you need to be the following:
(A): At least 21st Level or above.
(B): Pass the Test of the Starstone.
(C): Claim a portfolio or two (an aspect of every day life in Goloron)
As an extremely long-toothed DM (basic set 'dice chits' anyone?), I'm reluctant to talk much about my homebrew system due to the inevitable discussion about what is broken in my rules or implications about what might be wrong with me. [here goes 'nothin'...]
A homebrew system I've used for years focuses deeply on the transition from mortal to divine, which turns out to be a very lengthy process (which could start at even very low levels). The HB kludges together the Birthright Campaign Setting (BRCS D20) rules to the Dicefreaks Deity Rules, offering a path to ascension. I won't post or share the rules because they are not fit for public consumption (written notes, etc), but I can summarize the system well for those interested in doing something similar.
Immortal Homebrew
Following the BRCS rules, mortals build their bloodline score to 40 through that system (rules available at link below), at which time they become a timeless outsider (the low end of immortal), and become Divine Rank (DR) 0 in name only, without most of the benefits defined for DR0 in the DDG.
The full benefits normally associated with DR0 are spread out over the next 20 levels of an Immortal prestige class, and to gain each level, a portion of the associated DR0 benefits, and an outsider HD, the PC/NPC must have a progressively higher BRCS bloodline score, which means they will either have to participate in blood theft (taking of others' bloodline power through slaughter or manipulation), or through further development of their domain ('domain' as defined in BRCS).
In the homebrew, levels in the Immortal PRC are called Immortal Ranks (ImR), akin to the Divine Rank system in the DDG. At ImR 20 (which happens to be bloodline score 100), the character finally attains full benefits of being Divine Rank 0 (quasi-deity), as defined in the DDG book.
I spread the benefits of DR0 over 20 levels because of the substantial ECL that would be associated with DR0 powers. Since DR0 itself doesn't represent an ECL of +20, the 20-level PRC progression also grants additional outsider HD and minor daily powers gained each level. Progressing through the 20-level PRC can be a challenge, with the requirement for continual progression in building the BRCS bloodline score.
ImR20 characters can petition a greater power to sponsor them into a pantheon at DR1 (if space "exists" in a pantheon), or alternatively might be able to ascend on their own if they can build their bloodline score to 120 (without further progression beyond ImR20).
On ascension from quasi-deity (DR0) to demigod (DR1), BRCS powers and bloodline score and ImR are shed and the character retains the 20 outsider HD (a feature common to DDG powers), chooses a portfolio and domain, is able to chose a new physical form, and undergoes a rebuild/retrain session. From that point forward, the mechanics for the character follow the Dicefreaks Deity Rules.
How you DM for PC gods is up to you. The Dicefreaks Deity Rules offer a balanced system, but that will likely be the least of your worries, as you'll be focused on preventing Armageddon (been there, done that.. boring!)
An afterthought... I can't emphasize enough that an immortal/divine campaign can quickly spin out of control as PCs gain power. A DM for such a campaign has to focus on role-playing vice roll-playing to ensure the campaign remains interesting and a challenge. Seek storyline rp opportunities. What does it mean to be timeless or to be a god? The benefits of immortality should be offset somehow with responsibility for the PCs (demanding followers, need to provide guidance and leadership, etc). Give nothing to the PCs for free, make them earn every bit of it, and they will be proud of what they have earned and will treasure the campaign. [edit-fix typo]
Birthright Campaign Setting (BRCS D20)
http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/BRCS:Main_Page
Dicefreaks Deity Rules
http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=19
I'm also a big fan of UpperKrust's Immortal's Handbook, which includes a Worship Point System where heroic deeds by mortals can result in ascension to divinity. While I haven't used UK's system in my game, I followed the (exhaustingly) long development process, have "pulled the legs" off his system, and believe it to be mechanically sound... and full of many inspiring concepts. Want epic level play? Set your ELH aside and pick up the IHB (Immortal's Handbook).
At one point, UK had conducted some deep forensics in calculating ECL. His research there was a great help in my effort to balance the 20 levels of my Immortal PRC. Hats-off and sweeping bow to UK, a god among men.
The Immortals Handbook
http://www.immortalshandbook.com/ascension.htm
In WotC 3.5, it was possible to become a demigod as early as 30th level by taking the Demigod Epic Destiny.
The actual Deities and Demigods rulebook never gave any solid description of ascension, but the deities stated therein were 60HD themselves.
Therefore I would certainly lower the level requirement to 30 or 40.
In our high-powered homebrew world, it is possible to gain weak divinity as early as 21st level under the right circumstances, usually by gaining worshipers, passing some test/ritual, having it granted by a greater power, etc.
All of the links zhnov posted are solid stuff. I use Dicefreaks and the Immortal's Handbook regularly and would highly recommend them.
Thanks for the links. I will consider how I could use these.
I certainly can't have divinity be attained at level 30 due to the way I interpret demographics and maintaining consistency with science fiction games. Heck, deities could very well end up in science fiction settings.
40th level might work, but I like the idea of having a quasi-demigod region. 50th level could work, but I like the idea of having a level divisible by 20. That puts divinity at 60th level.
Of course, if I want to run a quasi-deity campaign, I could make the PCs godlings with 10 or 15 racial hit dice.
I have the 3rd Edition Deities and Demigods book, but I think it makes the deities too weak. I want to make sure that the high level deities, especially, tower above what even epic level PCs can do. My thought: the difference between a Rank 1 deity and a Rank 2 deity is the same as the difference between a 1st level and a 20th level PC.
I certainly can't have divinity be attained at level 30 due to the way I interpret demographics and maintaining consistency with science fiction games. Heck, deities could very well end up in science fiction settings.
What science fiction games are you aiming for? Remember that much of the "higher power at higher levels" can be attained just as easily by instead of leveling players from 1-40 (which must be kind of a level a month, for a campaign over 3 years!), leveling them from 1-20 and doing it slower. Remember that most of the fantasy and science fiction we see is usually see have heros that could be represented by quite low-level characters in D&D - there's an old article called "Gandalf was a 5th level Magic User" that summarizes it quite well. And Gandalf was something akin to a demigod, no less. I could easily make Jesus into a 9th-level cleric, and Moses with maybe 11 or 13 levels.
I know that in my gam that is not specifically a low-level game, any character over level 13 could easily make himself worshiped by hundreds of people if he calls himself a god. We haven't had any characters who want to attain real godhood yet, but I don't think I'll even require 20 levels for them to become demigods should they so wish (though I'd use a little different rules than the current demigod-rules).I guess what I'm trying to say is that you don't have to go upway towards astronomical levels, but instead try to widen the game on the sides. Make obtaining followers that worship you (even if you aren't a god, they don't have to know) one of the primary ways to become a god. And maybe even blur the line a little? Say that anyone with enough followers can gain divine abilities by their worshipers prayer.
My thought: the difference between a Rank 1 deity and a Rank 2 deity is the same as the difference between a 1st level and a 20th level PC.
I think that would be more or less impossible. A 1st level character is kind of a specialized regular guy. Sure, he's better than "regular" but his power is still limited to, on the very most, summon a horse or jump 10 ft. A 20th-level character can create planes of existance, travel the multiverse in an instant, change form into a myriad of different creatures at will, summon powerful outsiders such as nalfeschnees and so on. How can you double that up? Sure, you can get to create planes and summon even more powerful creatures - but it would be the same basic feeling.
To create an athmosphere where the gods tower beside the regular guys and even the heroes - try to lessen the power of the regular guy. Remember that most people in the world are 1st level commoners or so, and that most people breaking 4th level will be considered an hero among the regular guys.
It has to do with my existential demographics.
I assume that for 3rd level NPC, there are two 2nd level NPCs, for every 4th level NPC there are two 3rd level NPCs, on the average, and so on.
This is not a rigid iron rule, but a useful guide to how many high level characters are available in any one area. Assuming about 10% of NPCs have PC class levels, an area with 60,000 characters, for example, would have about half a dozen characters above 10th level, and perhaps a character of 12-15th level.
This works out to about one 20th level character per 10,000,000 NPCs, one 30th level character per 10,000,000,000 NPCs.
This means that a D20 science fiction setting, such as one I am thinking of based on Legion of Super Heroes, should have a number of NPCs in the 30-40 level range. Then again, with Legion of Superheroes as an inspiration, you can expect high level NPCs to be tough.
(I think this logic breaks Star Wars D20. Well, breaks it even more, I guess.)
Rules? You do something godlike. Doing godlike things becomes progressively easier as you advance in levels, but there is no fixed requirement.
"I'm sorry, mortal: You did pass the Test of the Starstone with flying colours, but you're one HD short, so no Ascension for you!" Makes for very cruddy storytelling.
Not only will it bar actual worthies from becoming a god, it will also mean that stories have to be rewritten. Did Cayden have the prerequisite 120 HD? When Irori ascended, did he have the right feats for it? Even when he wasn't trying to become a god?
Plus, if you have fixed rules, you have players that will demand that their characters be made gods because they clearly have all the prerequisites you wrote down. And then they want to continue playing them.
Mark me down for ineffable requirements. Because secretly, they are "whatever the GM needs to make the best story". Some things just shouldn't be guided by strict rules.
It's the same for how you can kill a god. No fixed rules, or you will find that you cannot tell stories past a certain level as the characters are busy treating Gods and Magic as the new Bestiary - and have check-lists where they can mark off the monsters, uh, I mean, gods, the already vanquished.
I should probably clarify that this is a non-Golaron campaign, so the Test of the Starstone does not apply.
If a PC could get to Golaron and pass the Test of the Starstone, which would require me determining what the Test of the Starstone actually is, then they could become a god even without meeting all the prerequisites.
Hmmm, perhaps I can work that into Lolth's backstory and have her ascended to divinity through such a cheat, since I've come up with a backstory of how she worked her way up from a 1st level enchantress up to the status of Greater Goddess... Talk about going far...
So shortcuts like the Test of the Starstone might exist, especially if whatever is behind the Starstone decides that it wants you as a god and thus makes sure that you pass the test.
One thought, the test could do 40 dice of damage to the applicant, giving 40 HD creatures a 50% chance of survival, but some people might be lucky and only take 40 points. Others could be unlucky and take 400 points of damage.
I certainly can't have divinity be attained at level 30 due to the way I interpret demographics and maintaining consistency with science fiction games. Heck, deities could very well end up in science fiction settings.
To you, what is the difference between a deity and a mortal with advanced technology/magic? What can a deity accomplish that they cant? Maybe that will tell us what you're going for here.
40th level might work, but I like the idea of having a quasi-demigod region. 50th level could work, but I like the idea of having a level divisible by 20. That puts divinity at 60th level.
Of course, if I want to run a quasi-deity campaign, I could make the PCs godlings with 10 or 15 racial hit dice.
For me, 10-30th level is the quasi-demi range. I'd actually go with a level divisible by 5 or 10. Otherwise you're going to end up with characters and deities with hundreds of levels...unless thats what you want?
I have the 3rd Edition Deities and Demigods book, but I think it makes the deities too weak. I want to make sure that the high level deities, especially, tower above what even epic level PCs can do. My thought: the difference between a Rank 1 deity and a Rank 2 deity is the same as the difference between a 1st level and a 20th level PC.
I don't mean to rain on your parade, but as stringburka said, its pretty much impossible. You're either going to need to change the power level of mortals or seriously lower your expectations of what a deity can and can't do.
If a 2nd rank god is effectively 20 levels higher than a 1st rank one, what is there left for a 3rd or 4th rank deity to do? What is a 16th rank deity? Is there even any need for something like that?Give me an example of a rank 1 and rank 2 deity.
I'd probably place Hercules at about rank 1 and someone like Nike at about rank 3 or 4. Although they have superhuman abilities, neither of them can create universes or anything like that, so in some ways they are less powerful than a level 24 Cleric (and in fact it would take a powerful deity to support an epic Cleric, not to mention a massive religion).
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I intensely dislike assigning deities stats in a game where PC gain levels. Let's just say that Sarenrae is basically a 40th level character with some god abilities added on (which is basically how gods were treated in 3e Deities & Demigods). What exactly happens when Kyra reaches 50th level? She's largely become more powerful than her own god. At what point does Sarenrae stop granting Kyra the power to cast spells, and it becomes Kyra granting Sarenrae the ability to cast spells?
I should probably clarify that this is a non-Golaron campaign, so the Test of the Starstone does not apply.
Note that the test is only one way to become a god. Another became a god when he recovered the thing. One god on the path of self-perfection went all the way and became a god. And one guy (you could also call two guys now) learned the ultimate truth behind magic and became a god (and insane).
The important thing is not get hung up with mechanical rules. They get in the way. People are going to thumb the book the rules are in and demand to be made deity.
It shouldn't be so mundane. If the requirements are even known to mortals, they should be "quest" based. I.e. not "turn level 30 and have the divine Ascendant feat" but "Catch the mythical Grey Stag" or "Stop the World in its Tracks" or "Find the legendary Sunstone" (In no way related to the Starstone, all similarities are purely incidental and not the result of Kae spending no more than 3 seconds thinking of a name)
If a PC could get to Golaron and pass the Test of the Starstone, which would require me determining what the Test of the Starstone actually is
Is that why you want simple rules? You don't want the hassle of creating your own divine myth?
Hmmm, perhaps I can work that into Lolth's backstory and have her ascended to divinity through such a cheat, since I've come up with a backstory of how she worked her way up from a 1st level enchantress up to the status of Greater Goddess... Talk about going far...
Lolths all over the verses are known for going far. Too far, usually.
One thought, the test could do 40 dice of damage to the applicant, giving 40 HD creatures a 50% chance of survival, but some people might be lucky and only take 40 points. Others could be unlucky and take 400 points of damage.
Rules again.
Think of the Test of the Starstone as an epic adventure. It might be different for everyone. You go into that cathedral, and face challenges nobody knows about. Except a dead guy, a drunkard, a chick who lost the way to the kitchen and the loner kid who plays all secretive because he's invisible to the rest of the class. None of them will talk.
Think of the Test of the Starstone as an epic adventure. It might be different for everyone. You go into that cathedral, and face challenges nobody knows about. Except a dead guy, a drunkard, a chick who lost the way to the kitchen and the loner kid who plays all secretive because he's invisible to the rest of the class. None of them will talk.
You forgot me. And who's the dead guy?
Anyway, I put up the whole test thing, and all I can say is: Surprise!
That setting has also made it clear that all "dieties" ere immortals, leaving the terms "gods" nowhere to be found.
Yeah, but you can't hold it against them, that was a long time ago. They might not always use synonyms to improve the text.
Plus, this is RPG text, where specific words are often used exclusively to show that you mean the official thing. And sometimes, words that are normally synonyms can mean quite different things in the rules.
Take fighter and warrior, for instance: They're usually used interchangeably in everyday life, but in Pathfinder, warrior is an NPC class while fighter is a class. In AD&D 2e, fighters, rangers and barbarians were collectively known as warriors.
And don't get me started with wizard! There are tons of synonyms for that, and almost all of them have a specific meaning in Pathfinder/D&D. A wizard is not a sorcerer, and when you talk about conjurers or enchanters, you mean a special kind of wizard.
I intensely dislike assigning deities stats in a game where PC gain levels. Let's just say that Sarenrae is basically a 40th level character with some god abilities added on (which is basically how gods were treated in 3e Deities & Demigods). What exactly happens when Kyra reaches 50th level? She's largely become more powerful than her own god. At what point does Sarenrae stop granting Kyra the power to cast spells, and it becomes Kyra granting Sarenrae the ability to cast spells?
Gods always grant themselves their own spells, even if one of their worshipers surpasses them. And, technically speaking, any divine caster can grant themselves their own spells from level 1 through sheer belief, so I'm not sure what the issue is.
I personally think deities should be stated. D&D gods are treated much like the real-world Greek and Norse pantheons. They make mistakes, they can be wounded (sometimes permanently), and they have an upper limit to their power and influence. They are not vague or distant entities. There is definitely a point were an epic party (or even an individual) surpasses them. (edit: though I'm sure we'll have trouble agreeing on where that point is)
Gods always grant themselves their own spells
Not always! Zon-Kuthon often denies himself his spells and tells himself that he's an unworthy worm!
any divine caster can grant themselves their own spells from level 1 through sheer belief
Not necessarily true. That depends a lot on the setting.
I personally think deities should be stated. D&D gods are treated much like the real-world Greek and Norse pantheons. They make mistakes, they can be wounded (sometimes permanently), and they have an upper limit to their power and influence.
Not necessarily. It's a lot about personal preferences. (And remember: This is not D&D. This is Pathfinder)
Plus, the core rules impose an upper limit to mortal power, too (no going beyond level 20!)
And in the Pathfinder campaign setting, for example, true deities are just beyond mortal ken. Mortals cannot harm them. There might be exceptions, but they require very specific circumstances, not just a high enough attack roll or something like that.
They are not vague or distant entities. There is definitely a point were an epic party (or even an individual) surpasses them. (edit: though I'm sure we'll have trouble agreeing on where that point is)
Definitely not. Because epic rules are optional. The core game assumes that when you hit level 20, you cannot gain more power. And even if you allow epic rules, it doesn't necessarily mean you will ever surpass the gods.
According to the rules, you can't even permanently kill the Tarrasque, not with a billion class levels. At least, nobody found a way yet.
Or look at Achaekek, the Mantis God. It's not even a true god, but just a God-Beast. And still, no creature short of a demigod or more powerful divine creature can truly harm it.
True deities are way beyond that. They could just wipe you out with but a though - though they won't dirty their hands. They'll just send Achaekek, long before you become too much of a threat.
And then those upstarts face an enemy they can hardly even hurt, and that will tear them to pieces in short order.
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So how does an Idol qualify as a demigod?
Face of Bo
Description: Giant Boulder-carved head, Blood stained, Middle of Village under Wooden Shrine.
Worshipers: 144 Level 1 Peasants (1 Village)
Alternative to 60 HD: 60 first Level clerics & Paladins of the Face of Bo.
Alternative to 21 Levels of Prestiege Class: 21 first level Clerics of the Inner Sanctum of Bo who live in the temple beneath the village and tend the rock - causing it to rise to the Surface through a Hole in the floor of the village Shrine during the regular Services and Festivals of Worship.
Domains: Earth & Law
Progression: 1 domain Point per 60 newly recruited first level Clerics
"You worship a rock...?" Burtram smiled at the prospect of some nutters worshiping a flippin great boulder carved with a face.
"The Face of Bo!" Kelman was getting annoyed at the questioning of his Faith by a Heretic.
I think I like Bo. It's good to have a deity as solid as a rock.
As for the question of divine power, my thought is that a Rank 1 or 2 deity can drain an entire army of strength or inspire it to extreme heroism, can sink an entire barony into the sea or under the earth, and do other things beyond the dreams of even a 20th level wizard. A Rank 19 or 20 deity can make everybody play 4th Edition, or even Runequest.
I also think that at some point, maybe Rank 11, a deity's power actually becomes infinite. Before then the deity is merely very great, able to affect entire nations, worlds, even galaxies, but still finite. After Rank 11, there are different levels of infinity, and also different options opened up on within the deity's power.
Perhaps at Rank 1, a deity's spell is calculated in miles rather than feet, so a fireball cast by a Rank 1 deity has a range of over 400 miles, and creates a blast 20 miles radius.
For every rank above that, the deity's rank is multiplied by the next lower rank, so a Rank 2 deity has spells with twice the range and effect as a Rank 1 deity, a Rank 3 deity has three times the range and effect of a Rank 2 deity, etc. Thus, a Rank 6 deity could cover an entire planet with a Fireball spell.
Well, that idea obviously don't work with politeistic phanteons. At least it doesn't looke like it.
Well, that idea obviously don't work with politeistic phanteons. At least it doesn't looke like it.
Why not?
Well, if you put more than one deity with infinite power (11+) things get trick to ... "balance" how exactly can 2 (or more!) Entities with infinite power co-exist without destroying creation, I'll never know.
Very easy.
1) While each deity may have infinite power, they may have infinite power in different domains. Aphrodite, for example, may have infinite power in love, while Ares has infinite power in war. No conflict there.
2) Just because they have infinite power does not mean that they have to use it. In my example above, a war between two Rank 6 deities can easily kill everybody in the world. So they don't fight in the world. They either fight somewhere else, or hold back and avoid giving each other everything that they've got.
3) A pantheon of infinite deities will have access to the multiverse, which in my conception is super-infinite. So infinite god A might never even hear about infinite god B, or even if they do, the greater infinities of the multiverse keeps either one from affecting the other.
Mathematicians have a lot of interesting ideas about infinity. It is possible for a Rank 11 deity to create an infinite universe just to her liking, and for it to be lost among the super-infinities of the multiverse.
I understand your concept, I just don't see it. Specially when you talk about greek Gods. They are passionate, in the blink of an eye, on a bad day or whatever they would have destroyed the world already. Besides, your idea of Demi-Gods, doesn't fit with historical figures.
I think it's WAY too much. 60 HD to be divine rank 1? Why? If this was the case several histories wouldn't have happened, just check out some RPG worlds, Forgotten Realms and Birthright for instance (specialy birthright)
I understand you wanting to put some uber power behind Gods, but this is too much. Besides, why the hell does HD have to do with divinity? The guy could be a commoner level 1 and have power beyond measure, I think the divine spark is just so much more than Uber power and class levels.
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Very easy.
1) While each deity may have infinite power, they may have infinite power in different domains. Aphrodite, for example, may have infinite power in love, while Ares has infinite power in war. No conflict there.
2) Just because they have infinite power does not mean that they have to use it. In my example above, a war between two Rank 6 deities can easily kill everybody in the world. So they don't fight in the world. They either fight somewhere else, or hold back and avoid giving each other everything that they've got.
3) A pantheon of infinite deities will have access to the multiverse, which in my conception is super-infinite. So infinite god A might never even hear about infinite god B, or even if they do, the greater infinities of the multiverse keeps either one from affecting the other.
Mathematicians have a lot of interesting ideas about infinity. It is possible for a Rank 11 deity to create an infinite universe just to her liking, and for it to be lost among the super-infinities of the multiverse.
I would regard Domains like a class - as you multiclass, you are forced to lessen your ability with both. So the God of Death would be all powerful but the God of Death and War would be limited to half as much power. So when the Immortal hits level 20, he/she would be 10th Level in each domain.
Then you get the Supreme being types who are jacks of all trades/Master of none with 1 level in every Domain.
Not always! Zon-Kuthon often denies himself his spells and tells himself that he's an unworthy worm!
Well, at least he has his free will.
Not necessarily true. That depends a lot on the setting.
True, and on the DM as well. But its assumed to be an option in core Pathfinder and most other settings I've played in. So I assumed it here as well.
Not necessarily. It's a lot about personal preferences. (And remember: This is not D&D. This is Pathfinder)
The Golorian campaign setting is almost identical to Greyhawk as far as how gods are treated. And I seem to remember a certain Vecna getting tore-up by his mortal general, Kas. (yes, Kas was smote afterwords but Vecna was badly maimed).
Plus, the core rules impose an upper limit to mortal power, too (no going beyond level 20!)
And in the Pathfinder campaign setting, for example, true deities are just beyond mortal ken. Mortals cannot harm them. There might be exceptions, but they require very specific circumstances, not just a high enough attack roll or something like that.
For the purpose of his campaign setting, we are assuming there are mortals running around that are above 20th level who can accomplish things not in the core rules. I agree that non-epic mortals could never challenge a god without the proper plot device, unless it was a really small god. Like that Zon-Kuthon guy who decided to deny his divine power that day.
Definitely not. Because epic rules are optional. The core game assumes that when you hit level 20, you cannot gain more power. And even if you allow epic rules, it doesn't necessarily mean you will ever surpass the gods.
If mortals are allowed to progress into epic and gain power not covered in the core rules, and gods have defined statistics, there is a point were they can be beaten or at least challenged.
According to the rules, you can't even permanently kill the Tarrasque, not with a billion class levels. At least, nobody found a way yet.
You can't kill it with anything currently presented. That doesn't mean it can't be killed. Same thing with the gods.
Or look at Achaekek, the Mantis God. It's not even a true god, but just a God-Beast. And still, no creature short of a demigod or more powerful divine creature can truly harm it.
Sure you can. If hes got stats, he can be hurt or at least hampered. If I'm a 40th level Barbarian, I can pin him until he says "uncle". And if you've got the stomach for it, you can probably eat him, too. I'd bet hes all kinds of poisonous, but the option is there.
True deities are way beyond that. They could just wipe you out with but a though - though they won't dirty their hands. They'll just send Achaekek, long before you become too much of a threat.
And then those upstarts face an enemy they can hardly even hurt, and that will tear them to pieces in short order.
I play a god as a character, I know how this stuff works. A rank 1 or 2 deity is very vulnerable to epic parties. A rank 20 god is impossible, even for an epic party of his level, but there are still mortal (aka non-divine) things out there that can take him down a notch. Granted, sentient evil planets and star dragons aren't part of the core rules, but you can definitely imagine things that can harm an immortal. The core rules aren't intended for people who want this level of play.
As for the question of divine power, my thought is that a Rank 1 or 2 deity can drain an entire army of strength or inspire it to extreme heroism, can sink an entire barony into the sea or under the earth, and do other things beyond the dreams of even a 20th level wizard. A Rank 19 or 20 deity can make everybody play 4th Edition, or even Runequest.
I can agree to that, assuming of course that an epic Fighter can make the fort save to not have his strength drained, and an epic Wizard could sink a small country with an epic ritual.
Greater gods are several leagues out of the league of epic mortals and demigods, but demigods themselves are only a few steps ahead of epic mortals.I also think that at some point, maybe Rank 11, a deity's power actually becomes infinite. Before then the deity is merely very great, able to affect entire nations, worlds, even galaxies, but still finite. After Rank 11, there are different levels of infinity, and also different options opened up on within the deity's power.
Why not save infinity for the overgods? How exactly does an infinite being defeat another infinite being? Once they reach rank 11, how would a deity move up or down in the hierarchy?
Perhaps at Rank 1, a deity's spell is calculated in miles rather than feet, so a fireball cast by a Rank 1 deity has a range of over 400 miles, and creates a blast 20 miles radius.
My general rule of thumb is a mile per rank, with intermediate and greater deities being able to affect things anywhere on the planet or even anywhere on another plane they aren't currently on. Even my rank greater god can't boast 20 mile wide fireballs, though his higher level spells come close. Why not something like this?
Rank 1-5: milesRank 6-10: hundreds of miles
Rank 11-15: the planet
Rank 16-20: the entire plane/galaxy
Rank 21+: reality
(edit: this is just a suggestion for range and awareness. Area of effect should be significantly smaller.)
For every rank above that, the deity's rank is multiplied by the next lower rank, so a Rank 2 deity has spells with twice the range and effect as a Rank 1 deity, a Rank 3 deity has three times the range and effect of a Rank 2 deity, etc. Thus, a Rank 6 deity could cover an entire planet with a Fireball spell.
I'd probably err on the side of less powerful and go with addition rather than multiplication. Not even Zeus or Odin ever displayed the ability to cover the planet in fire.