WotC does expect the Big 6, they said it.Cite?
I know they said things about when they could expect a PC to be able to afford a magic weapon out of expected wealth and worked to keep magic-based DR under that level.
But any other postitive that the Big 6 were all expected rather than expecting a general improvement from a smattering of the items? That I'd have to see to believe.
It's explicitly stated in the Magic Item Compendium.
They even changed the magic item creation rules worked when they published the book BECAUSE they knew it was causing such a big problem (that is, many cool magic items weren't being taken solely because the big six existed).
But they CAN make the items themselves, or they can go on serious, time involved quests. Even making the item themselves involves going and getting their materials to make them, unless they've been collecting such materials themselves. A ring of protection +3 is fairly easily come by once you are 15th level, but you won't be able to find one randomly or purchase one even if you're 18th level. Making one entails having the purest gold, three perfectly cut gems of three different types, a vial of perfectly pure spring water collected from the source and not magically altered, and a masterwork dagger that has been blunted on the hide of a monster. These all are part of the cost of creating the item, but finding them to purchase is difficult enough, if not impossible. But once you have them you can then make a ring of protection +5 - assuming you have the feat to Forge Rings.
My players have never complained about this being the case.
So they never complained about having to go on several side quests to use one of their feats ONCE? They are far more patient people then I. You would need HUGE amounts of downtime away from the campaign to craft a single item, because not only do you have to account for the time it takes to make the item, but also the time to assemble these materials.
Hmm, I guess the people here haven't read the Magic Item Compendium.
Resistance, Protection, and Ability Score bonuses on items 'NEVER' trigger the 1.5 cost modifier. Thus, mixing, matching and combining functions of items is considered a GIVEN in the game, to maximize slot usage.
This is actually MUCh friendlier to the 'Big 6' then Paizo's style, even with the additional Robe slot.
===Aelryinth
Hmm, I guess the people here haven't read the Magic Item Compendium.
Resistance, Protection, and Ability Score bonuses on items 'NEVER' trigger the 1.5 cost modifier. Thus, mixing, matching and combining functions of items is considered a GIVEN in the game, to maximize slot usage.
This is actually MUCh friendlier to the 'Big 6' then Paizo's style, even with the additional Robe slot.
===Aelryinth
Even with the additional headband slot?
Even with the additional headband slot?Hmm, I guess the people here haven't read the Magic Item Compendium.
Resistance, Protection, and Ability Score bonuses on items 'NEVER' trigger the 1.5 cost modifier. Thus, mixing, matching and combining functions of items is considered a GIVEN in the game, to maximize slot usage.
This is actually MUCh friendlier to the 'Big 6' then Paizo's style, even with the additional Robe slot.
===Aelryinth
Yes. Additional slots don't help you if you can't afford to put things in them. You're still making a swap call of 'stat item or cool item'. On all of my stat slots, I can wear a 'cool item' without increasing my costs. You get 2 extra slots, but for the other 4, you're still paying +50%.
That, and the belt of Magnificence gives +6 to all stats for 200k, and the Headband of Perfection does for Int/Wis/Cha for 100k. that would be like 300k+ and 144k for Pathfinder, respectively.
===Aelryinth
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I like the idea of removing the x1.5 from the equation. I might rule it to only work for Big 6 bonuses, just so things don't get too out of hand. I was also thinking of making a custom spell that transfers these Big 6 bonuses from 1 item to the next. Not sure how to balance that just yet, but it should allow player's to combine that +1 ring of protection with their new ring of the ram, for example. They would get the best of both world's so-to-speak.
I might make a more powerful higher level version that can upgrade a +1 bonus to a +2 and +2 to a +3 so on (if you get enough +1's to equal in value to a single +2, they all get combined into a single item now acting as a +2). This could solve the infamous +1 longswords. Eventually they can stock pile the swords and combine those enhancement bonuses to upgrade their weapons.
Some food for thought.
Something like Christine's Arcane Anvil sounds about right as a place to start. It also would, being a large (possibly fixed) item, allow reason for the party to retreat and regroup.
In order to facilitate GM planning of my doom, I'm going to speak out as a player under Deathquaker;) As one of the two spellcasters of high level, here's the breakdown of my spellcasting abilities.Highest possible Fort save I can inflict: DC 27 ** spoiler omitted **
Highest possible Reflex save: DC 24 ** spoiler omitted **
Highest possible Will save: 27 ** spoiler omitted **...
Please be sure I am not going to take any of your items away. :)
If I have any frustration at all, it's that when I make core race+class NPCs, I find I end up having to give them all the same equipment--which I'd rather not do because I'd rather give the party something useful rather than 100 Cloaks of Resistance +3 that they don't need because they all already have CoRs. Sure, they can sell the 100 Cloaks of Resistance, but that means finding an area rich and civilized enough to afford them (or have an equivalent trade).
The fact that an appropriate CR MONSTER can save better than your cleric (and has a fair chance of saving vs. your spells), but I have to work very hard/use the same usual magic gear to make a race-with-levels NPC to challenge you, illustrates that the reliance on stat boost and save boost items is hard wired into the game.
Which is all I was getting at.
Please be sure I am not going to take any of your items away. :)
If I have any frustration at all, it's that when I make core race+class NPCs, I find I end up having to give them all the same equipment--which I'd rather not do because I'd rather give the party something useful rather than 100 Cloaks of Resistance +3 that they don't need because they all already have CoRs. Sure, they can sell the 100 Cloaks of Resistance, but that means finding an area rich and civilized enough to afford them (or have an equivalent trade).
The fact that an appropriate CR MONSTER can save better than your cleric (and has a fair chance of saving vs. your spells), but I have to work very hard/use the same usual magic gear to make a race-with-levels NPC to challenge you, illustrates that the reliance on stat boost and save boost items is hard wired into the game.
Which is all I was getting at.
I understand. I didn't think you'd take stuff away from us at any point. I am built with some effort going toward having good saves, again, because if I fall, who else is there to do the healing? I actually found it interesting to compare my saves with a monster's saves, though there's also the factor that most high CR monsters are outsiders or dragons, both known for having great saves in 2 or 3 categories. I can't speak for the NPCs, though, as I listen to the roll of treasure and then promptly forget it, as I have little need for most of it. Which further illustrates your point, I think.
You would need HUGE amounts of downtime away from the campaign to craft a single item, because not only do you have to account for the time it takes to make the item, but also the time to assemble these materials.
So? Seems to be working for them.
I understand. I didn't think you'd take stuff away from us at any point. I am built with some effort going toward having good saves, again, because if I fall, who else is there to do the healing? I actually found it interesting to compare my saves with a monster's saves, though there's also the factor that most high CR monsters are outsiders or dragons, both known for having great saves in 2 or 3 categories. I can't speak for the NPCs, though, as I listen to the roll of treasure and then promptly forget it, as I have little need for most of it. Which further illustrates your point, I think.
Please be sure I am not going to take any of your items away. :)
If I have any frustration at all, it's that when I make core race+class NPCs, I find I end up having to give them all the same equipment--which I'd rather not do because I'd rather give the party something useful rather than 100 Cloaks of Resistance +3 that they don't need because they all already have CoRs. Sure, they can sell the 100 Cloaks of Resistance, but that means finding an area rich and civilized enough to afford them (or have an equivalent trade).
The fact that an appropriate CR MONSTER can save better than your cleric (and has a fair chance of saving vs. your spells), but I have to work very hard/use the same usual magic gear to make a race-with-levels NPC to challenge you, illustrates that the reliance on stat boost and save boost items is hard wired into the game.
Which is all I was getting at.
Indeed.
I wonder if it would be fair to boost key NPC (not minion) stats but then give them less equipment overall---but the equipment they do have should be stuff that's a bit unique and different.
Indeed.I wonder if it would be fair to boost key NPC (not minion) stats but then give them less equipment overall---but the equipment they do have should be stuff that's a bit unique and different.
We should take this back over to our thread;)
Well, let's see. If key NPCs had higher stats, that could compensate for the reduced magical equipment when it comes to saves and whatnot. Warriors would need 2 points of Strength per +1 of weapon to get the same attack and damage values, unless they're finesse types, in which case add 2 points of Dex per +1 to hit from magic weapons and 2 points of Strength for damage. Casters would need higher Int/Wis/Cha. Higher Int=more skill points, not too big a deal I'd guess. More Wisdom helps on saves regardless and more spells for divine types. And so on. Less treasure from those key NPCs may or may not hurt us. If we get stuff we like and keep once you swap stuff around, then we're good. If not, then we have less treasure coming in overall. Once we get done selling stuff, that's less we'd have to make stuff. And I think the most expensive things we've enchanted have only been around 12K for market price to date, it's just that I tend to sit down and make magic items in batches that makes the time add up.
My personal greed for power aside, I always like to see unusual magic items as long as they do things that I can find uses for. Combination items are always favorites for me. I took the Cloak of the Commander because it was a combo item: it was one of the big 6 (cloak of resistance) with a useful additional feature (dimension door, like the cape of the mountebank). My belt is heading that way, as it boosts 2 stats plus has Great Fortitude (pricing that was annoying though, not going to do that again).
Overall, I don't know what would happen if you change things as you suggest. It depends on how the rest of the party feels, in part; John and Keith are the two I'd have to think about the most.
We should take this back over to our thread;)
Indeed.I wonder if it would be fair to boost key NPC (not minion) stats but then give them less equipment overall---but the equipment they do have should be stuff that's a bit unique and different.
I am leaving this comment here for now as it's still somewhat relevant I think to the conversation at hand, but should we get further into the specifics of the Uncivil War campaign, we should go back to the Slay the Immortal campaign journal.
Well, let's see. If key NPCs had higher stats, that could compensate for the reduced magical equipment when it comes to saves and whatnot. Warriors would need 2 points of Strength per +1 of weapon to get the same attack and damage values, unless they're finesse types, in which case add 2 points of Dex per +1 to hit from magic weapons and 2 points of Strength for damage. Casters would need higher Int/Wis/Cha. Higher Int=more skill points, not too big a deal I'd guess. More Wisdom helps on saves regardless and more spells for divine types. And so on. Less treasure from those key NPCs may or may not hurt us. If we get stuff we like and keep once you swap stuff around, then we're good. If not, then we have less treasure coming in overall. Once we get done selling stuff, that's less we'd have to make stuff. And I think the most expensive things we've enchanted have only been around 12K for market price to date, it's just that I tend to sit down and make magic items in batches that makes the time add up.
If I actually did this, I would probably make sure there was more treasure in pure coin form so you can buy the items/item creation materials you need to make up for what you found lacking.
My personal greed for power aside, I always like to see unusual magic items as long as they do things that I can find uses for. Combination items are always favorites for me. I took the Cloak of the Commander because it was a combo item: it was one of the big 6 (cloak of resistance) with a useful additional feature (dimension door, like the cape of the mountebank).
The interesting thing about that was the 5 Pieces of the Commander's Raiment (a final equipment award for end of chapter) is that they were actually (without my even thinking about it) more or less 5 of the Big Six. (No weapon, and no ROP but extra stat boosters instead) Magic armor, a head band of stat boosting, a belt of stat boosting, gloves of stat boosting. And your clocak.
It's just they all had something extra added onto them--the Cloak was combined with a Cape of the Mountebank as you say. The Armor was Armor of Command with a couple extra flavorful bits and pieces. The Headband was combined with a Helm of Comprehension. Etc.
All the pieces were designed not with "let's give them the Big 6" in mind, but "What does the party need?" And the answer I came up with was "Saves and Stats. Plus some cool extras."
And it's also notable that you guys got that as an end-of-chapter award and were level 17 at the time. Most campaigns never even see level 17. How does a GM of a lower level campaign manage do do these kind of things but not deprive the players of what they may well need to survive?
Limit the availability of the big6 items past +1's.
Actually, in a lot of cases, they are much more heavily restricted. The max availability in PF of 'commonly available' magic is 16,000 gp, which covers a +2 weapon, +4 armor, +4 stat booster/resistance, +2 ring of protection. Even then there's a 25% chance that they're not available. And that's only in a metropolis. In a large city, it drops to 8,000, so +2 weapons, +2 armor, +2 protection, +2 stat booster/resistance is the limit (again, with only 75% availability). Smaller locales are even more restrictive, most likely topping out at +1 or less.
There are exceptions, but as the DM, you can guide those. Again, this is by the rules in the book.
In 3.5, the GP limits were MUCH higher. 100,000 for a metropolis, 40,000 for a large city.
That's a +7 weapon, +10 armor, +5 protection, +5 natural armor, +5 resistance, or +6 stat in a metropolis.
Or a +4 weapon, +6 armor, +4 protection, +4 natural armor, +5 resistance, or +6 stat in a large city.
There's a big difference in power levels there.
Most campaigns never even see level 17. How does a GM of a lower level campaign manage do do these kind of things but not deprive the players of what they may well need to survive?
At lower level, let's face it, the numbers you need to roll are also lower. As you advance in level, your resources expand. But the monsters also grow in power as we go up the scale. A fighter at 1st level might have an AC of 17 and he'd be pretty safe from the average critter. By our level, he's going to have to have gained a good bit of AC to remain just as unhitable, say on average 1 point of AC per level plus a couple extra when dealing with melee brutes. I think some of our toughest fights have really been cases where we've had to fight against melee critters just because they're so good at hitting. Though I also admit that you were rolling real well that night with the frost giants;)
For a lower-level character, the first goal is just to get the big 6. Until that character finds them all, he can have those interesting items. I think it's really later that you start needing them.
Here's a thought. The last campaign was low to mid-level. What kind of magic and gear did we go looking for primarily? Big 6, I imagine. For me, it was a good bow, then armor, and then things like amulets of natural armor, cloaks of resistance, and finally stat boosters (since Rayne was rolled up and had godlike stats, I didn't need them so much).
I still think that the Magic Item Compendium's idea of attaching the basic qualities to any item makes the most sense some days. It's straightforward, and frees up the option of having cool items. I'd happily get a natural armor bonus and stick it into some other item if I knew I could get a fun amulet or necklace, for example.
In order to facilitate GM planning of my doom, I'm going to speak out as a player under Deathquaker;) As one of the two spellcasters of high level, here's the breakdown of my spellcasting abilities.Highest possible Fort save I can inflict: DC 27 ** spoiler omitted **
Highest possible Reflex save: DC 24 ** spoiler omitted **
Highest possible Will save: 27 ** spoiler omitted **...Please be sure I am not going to take any of your items away. :)
If I have any frustration at all, it's that when I make core race+class NPCs, I find I end up having to give them all the same equipment--which I'd rather not do because I'd rather give the party something useful rather than 100 Cloaks of Resistance +3 that they don't need because they all already have CoRs. Sure, they can sell the 100 Cloaks of Resistance, but that means finding an area rich and civilized enough to afford them (or have an equivalent trade).
The fact that an appropriate CR MONSTER can save better than your cleric (and has a fair chance of saving vs. your spells), but I have to work very hard/use the same usual magic gear to make a race-with-levels NPC to challenge you, illustrates that the reliance on stat boost and save boost items is hard wired into the game.
Which is all I was getting at.
I think what they mean is that PCs can usually get away with not having everything from the Big 6 in as-written Paizo adventures (or at least, our group has stuff from the Big 6 and we usually kick serious butt). Now, against reasonably-optimised PCs (particularly if the PCs do have them), NPCs are a different story.
Also, saves are so important that Cloaks of Resistance are clearly in the top 2 things of the big 6 for any given character (exception prime spellcasting stat booster for casters, weapon for noncasters). For something like a BBEG, perhaps they have the blessing of a dark god similar to the Paladin's Divine Grace ability and they get to add Charisma bonus to all saves? In 3.5, I would actually give the BBEG levels of those evil Paladin variants instead to make it more legit.
Also, higher stats work quite well (as you mention in your next post)--+2 to all stats is a little less than half the Advanced template, though it doesn't help saves too much.
If all else fails, BBEGs get a lot of use out of the Improved X feats for saves, since they will usually not have to fight more than one encounter per day.