2 questions:
1)Swarms are immune to spells that target a specific # of creatures, but a spell that effects a specific # of HD, like sleep, should still work, right?
2) Party is facing two rat swarms, one immediately behind the other. Wizard casts, and puts the first one to sleep. 2nd swarm moves through the first and into party. Does the movement of the 2nd swarm wake up the first?
It makes sense that it works to me. Swarms do have a specific HD, don't they?
2 questions:
1)Swarms are immune to spells that target a specific # of creatures, but a spell that effects a specific # of HD, like sleep, should still work, right?
2) Party is facing two rat swarms, one immediately behind the other. Wizard casts, and puts the first one to sleep. 2nd swarm moves through the first and into party. Does the movement of the 2nd swarm wake up the first?
Two ways to handle number two.
A) no, because they did not take an action to wake them from magical sleep.
Or
2) allow a perception check to the swarm?
Bestiary page 313:
A swarm is immume to any spell or effect that targets a specific mumber of creatures(including single-target spells duch as disintegrate), with the exeption of mindaffecting effaects(charm, compulsion, morele effectes, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an intelligence score and a hive mind.
This means no sleep on Swarms.
Bestiary page 313:
A swarm is immume to any spell or effect that targets a specific mumber of creatures(including single-target spells duch as disintegrate), with the exeption of mindaffecting effaects(charm, compulsion, morele effectes, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an intelligence score and a hive mind.
This means no sleep on Swarms.
Erm...Sleep is a mind effecting, enchantment (compulsion)...The swarm has intelligence. Debate about the hive mind bit but for me the swarm acts a single unit so fulfills that bit as well...
Bestiary page 313:
A swarm is immume to any spell or effect that targets a specific mumber of creatures(including single-target spells duch as disintegrate), with the exeption of mindaffecting effaects(charm, compulsion, morele effectes, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an intelligence score and a hive mind.
This means no sleep on Swarms.
Are there any spells that target a specific number of creatures? If not, then it needs to be specific to say they are immune to spells that target a specific HD of creatures because a swarm has a given HD, why wouldn't a specific HD affecting spell affect them?
Sleep affects a maximum of 4 creatures. Each rat in a swarm is technically a creature with a HD, so even if the spell put 4 rats to sleep it would have almost no effect on the swarm.
No it doesn't.
It effects four hit dice of creatures.Totally different.
I don't believe sleep would work, as it is still a spell that targets a number of creatures.
Sleep targets an area. It has a single hit dice. Sleep doesn't affect a finite number of creatures it affects a finite number of hit dice. As such an abstraction it will affect the swarm if it has 4 hit dice or less.
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I could see this argued both ways. Sleep states that it targets a number of creatures up to a maximum hit dice (which could be interpreted as the "creatures" spell immunity of swarms.
A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 HD of creatures.
However, the swarm text states:
A swarm is a collection of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that acts as a single creature...A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class
Since the sleep spell refers to Hit Dice, not a number of creatures, one could easily argue it's not a spell that effects a finite number of creatures. I'm not sold either group is right yet and I'd say a hard/fast ruling is going to be quite difficult without developer intervention.
EDIT: However, I would rule that sleep could affect a swarm.
Every single creature in the game world has a HD of some kind, even if its 1/3HD. A swarm is an abstraction of this.
A swarm is an explicit number of HD.
Sleep doesn't target a number of creatures it effects up to four HD of creatures be it one 4HD creature or 100x .04HD creatures.
Quote:A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 HD of creatures.
The number of creatures effected are quote: one or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst.
So far so good. So what type of spell is sleep?
Quote: enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]
So what spells don't effect swarms.
Quote:A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind.
A swarm has an intelligence of 2.
So we are left with the definition of a hive mind which is the perception of creatures existing as units of a whole, rather than individuals, a group mind. Which can be applied to a swarm as they don't act as individuals but as a group. Everything about them is treated as a collective.
Unless there is a specific game definition of "hive mind" I can't see any reason to assume that the Sleep spell wouldn't work on swarms.
Sleep doesn't target a number of creatures it effects up to four HD of creatures be it one 4HD creature or 100x .04HD creatures.
Quote:A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 HD of creatures.
The number of creatures effected are quote: one or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst.
So far so good. So what type of spell is sleep?
Quote: enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]So what spells don't effect swarms.
Quote:A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind.A swarm has an intelligence of 2.
So we are left with the definition of a hive mind which is the perception of creatures existing as units of a whole, rather than individuals, a group mind. Which can be applied to a swarm as they don't act as individuals but as a group. Everything about them is treated as a collective.
Unless there is a specific game definition of "hive mind" I can't see any reason to assume that the Sleep spell wouldn't work on swarms.
Actually, hive mind is a specific creature ability--an ability that swarms do no possess by default unless specifically stated.
Actually, hive mind is a specific creature ability--an ability that swarms do no possess by default unless specifically stated.
Could you either post a link to that or page number please as I couldn't find any reference to hive mind. Cheers.
EDIT: the only reference I can find is on the d20pfsrd site in the fan based sections. I would like to know if Paizo has a definition rather than an unofficial source.
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Actually, hive mind is a specific creature ability--an ability that swarms do no possess by default unless specifically stated.
This is both true and false. It's a 3.5 creature ability (formians anyone?) that we haven't yet seen in Pathfinder.
For what it's worth, I think *eventually* hive mind will once again be defined, and that will concretely make rat swarms immune to sleep.
Actually, hive mind is a specific creature ability--an ability that swarms do no possess by default unless specifically stated.This is both true and false. It's a 3.5 creature ability (formians anyone?) that we haven't yet seen in Pathfinder.
For what it's worth, I think *eventually* hive mind will once again be defined, and that will concretely make rat swarms immune to sleep.
This is what I mean. In the core rules I can't find anything which defines a hive mind. As far as I'm concerned a hive mind applies to a collective of creatures which act as a single unit. Which is pretty much what a swarm does.
As it stands applying the definition of hive mind to swarms makes more sense (to me) than not.
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Searching the core and bestiary, I cannot locate any definition of what constitutes the "hive mind." However, it is reasonable to say that all swarms have a hive mind since the individual creatures function as a single entity. I see no reason why a sleep spell wouldn't work against a swarm, if it would work against the standard form of the creature.
animal swarm (bat/rat) = sleep works
vermin swarm (ant/centipede/crab/leech/spider/wasp) = no sleep
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I would say that what you need to look at is the int score. Since hive mind isn't detailed, I think we can assume it's just a trait that swarms possess that keeps them all moving the same direction or attacking the same target. Thus, the only factor we can check for is intelligence score.
the army ant swarm doesn't have an int score.
the bat swarm has an int of 2
centipede swarm -- no int score
crab swarm no int score
leech swarm no int score
rat swarm has int of 2
spider swarm no int score
wasp swarm no int score
Wow, this seems hideously simple to me, but then again, due to frequent use of swarms, I've had to learn their abilities well.
Sleep affects an area, which can have "one or more creatures" in it. That is not a specific number. A specific number is 1, 99, 2 per caster level, or 4 creatures of up to over 9000 hd.
All good so far.
Sleep is mind affecting. Swarms are in no way automatically immune to mind effects. The mind effects just fail to work if they are limited to a "specific number of targets". So charm monster fails on a rat swarm. But charm monster works great on a swarm of cranium rats, because they have a hive mind. Their minds are all linked, as if they were a single target, for the purposes of the spell.
Mindless creatures are immune to mind effects. Alright, so any vermin type swarm is off limits to sleep. We already knew that because the big spider was immune, so why would its swarm of babies be vunerable?
End result: Sleep will affect a swarm of appropriate HD that is not mindless.
To me, the only question is whether to allow sleep to affect 6hd of swarms, due to the fact that it is an AoE, and swarms take 50% more damage from AoEs. Literally (and likely the intent as well) is No. It specifically states damage. But to play devil's advocate, most swarms are composed of tiny tiny creatures, with weak wills individually (consider how most of the swarm creatures behave when NOT part of a swarm). Its only the collective juggernaut of the swarm that gives them the illusion of greater strength (base save from HD). A mind effect that can bath each one individually, to me, seems like it would be very effective. I could see the argument for the +50% to the effect of the spell, even if the origional wording was merely damage.
Hive Mind is a creature ability in the Realm of the Fellnight Queen module (which is an official Pathfinder source).
I would say more about it, but won't for fear of spoiling the module.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Rats are 1 HD creatures, you can find stats for them under Familiar in the book.
So while you can argue that, due to futzy wording of the Swarm immunities, Sleep might kind of sort of technically work, it really really shouldn't.
I mean seriously, stick 300 1 HD rats in a box, cast sleep, and at best, four of them doze off. Shake the box to piss 'em off, then let 'em out--suddenly sleep knocks out all 300 no problem? Does Not Compute.
And does the rat swarm have 300HD?
Rats are 1 HD creatures, you can find stats for them under Familiar in the book.
So while you can argue that, due to futzy wording of the Swarm immunities, Sleep might kind of sort of technically work, it really really shouldn't.
I mean seriously, stick 300 1 HD rats in a box, cast sleep, and at best, four of them doze off. Shake the box to piss 'em off, then let 'em out--suddenly sleep knocks out all 300 no problem? Does Not Compute.
Except this isn't about how many rats. Again it's about hit dice. The sleep spell could affect an infinite number of creatures so long has its hit dice limit isn't reached. The rats in the swarm don't have hit dice -- the swarm does. Therefore the limit of what the sleep spell can put to sleep (the HD limit) is the only one that matters.
A swarm is not 300 individual rats -- it's a swarm with x hit dice.
IF you want to fight 300 rats, then put the part up against 300 rats. If you choose the swarm then you get a finite hit dice swarm and if that hit dice is 4 or lower it is subject to the sleep spell.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Except this isn't about how many rats. Again it's about hit dice. The sleep spell could affect an infinite number of creatures so long has its hit dice limit isn't reached. The rats in the swarm don't have hit dice -- the swarm does. Therefore the limit of what the sleep spell can put to sleep (the HD limit) is the only one that matters.A swarm is not 300 individual rats -- it's a swarm with x hit dice.
IF you want to fight 300 rats, then put the part up against 300 rats. If you choose the swarm then you get a finite hit dice swarm and if that hit dice is 4 or lower it is subject to the sleep spell.
I'm not arguing that, like I said, the case can be made that, by the rules, sleep should work.
I'm saying, regardless of how the rules treat those 300 rats, they're still 300 freaking rats. The swarm rules are an abstraction, they don't always function in a way that makes sense. This is one of those cases. Four rats on one hand, 300 on the other, complete logical disconnect.
Except this isn't about how many rats. Again it's about hit dice. The sleep spell could affect an infinite number of creatures so long has its hit dice limit isn't reached. The rats in the swarm don't have hit dice -- the swarm does. Therefore the limit of what the sleep spell can put to sleep (the HD limit) is the only one that matters.A swarm is not 300 individual rats -- it's a swarm with x hit dice.
IF you want to fight 300 rats, then put the part up against 300 rats. If you choose the swarm then you get a finite hit dice swarm and if that hit dice is 4 or lower it is subject to the sleep spell.
I'm not arguing that, like I said, the case can be made that, by the rules, sleep should work.
I'm saying, regardless of how the rules treat those 300 rats, they're still 300 freaking rats. The swarm rules are an abstraction, they don't always function in a way that makes sense. This is one of those cases. Four rats on one hand, 300 on the other, complete logical disconnect.
clearly it's a swarm of mice.
Seriously though, I think the swarm are normal-sized rats (say the size of a soda can) and the 1 HD rats are closer to cat-sized.
Except this isn't about how many rats. Again it's about hit dice. The sleep spell could affect an infinite number of creatures so long has its hit dice limit isn't reached. The rats in the swarm don't have hit dice -- the swarm does. Therefore the limit of what the sleep spell can put to sleep (the HD limit) is the only one that matters.A swarm is not 300 individual rats -- it's a swarm with x hit dice.
IF you want to fight 300 rats, then put the part up against 300 rats. If you choose the swarm then you get a finite hit dice swarm and if that hit dice is 4 or lower it is subject to the sleep spell.
I'm not arguing that, like I said, the case can be made that, by the rules, sleep should work.
I'm saying, regardless of how the rules treat those 300 rats, they're still 300 freaking rats.
And they are still a finite number of rats with an explicit number of hit dice.
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Meh, they have a HD pool. They don't really each have, what, .05 hps. The swarm subtype is specific that it is a HD pool. Since you're not affecting each one individually, specifically because they don't have hd individually listed so you can't account for each one, it doesn't work.
Or, say you had a 6hd swarm. Does sleep cause it to function as a 2hd swarm? No, it just doesn't affect it.
Meh, they have a HD pool. They don't really each have, what, .05 hps. The swarm subtype is specific that it is a HD pool. Since you're not affecting each one individually, specifically because they don't have hd individually listed so you can't account for each one, it doesn't work.
Or, say you had a 6hd swarm. Does sleep cause it to function as a 2hd swarm? No, it just doesn't affect it.
Of course not, 6 > 4.
And they are still a finite number of rats with an explicit number of hit dice.I'm saying it's Silly. Telling me how the rule works doesn't refute that it's silly. Some rules are silly.
Why is it silly? Because it's 300 rats and you can't handle "IT'S MAGIC!" It doesn't have a creature limit - it has a hit dice limit. Those "300 rats" don't have a hit dice each. They collectively have 4 hit dice -- as such they fall victim to the spell.
It's like saying, "You can't alchemist fire them because there's 300 of them!"
Sleep doesn't care about the number of targets.
It cares about the area they are in, and how many hit dice they have. As a swarm it doesn't have enough "vitality" (or whatever fluff you want to throw at it) to resist the spell and therefore it affects the swarm.
EDIT: Honestly I think we are done here. The rules are clear -- the spell affects hit dice. If it has less hit dice than the spell can affect then the swarm of rats can be affected. Regardless of if it should or not that's what the rules allow. IF we want to have a general discussion on the subject that would be fine (elsewhere) but the rules are what was asked about by the OP and those have been addressed.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I'm actually coming around on this.
I still think it's silly, but having pondered why I think it's silly, it ended up being for a different reason than I originally thought. (if that makes any sense?)
Putting 300 Tiny creatures to sleep doesn't seem that unreasonable for a spell that can knock out an Ogre. It's the fact that, unless those Tiny creatures are lumped together into a swarm, it can only knock out 4 of them that makes this silly to me.
But when everything on the bottom has 1 HD, spells that target HD are going to act weird.
So I rescind my complaint. Sleep should work on a Rat Swarm (I just think it should also work on more rats than it does people outside of the swarm situation).
Really small creatures like mundane rats, birds, spiders, etc, should probably have a tag on them that mentions they are treated as "1/X of a HD for the purposes of spells that depend on target HD".
Might help with this specific sleep scenario, might help in general with rule-to-world-versimiltude.
Or it might have a point where it interacts with another spell and goes completely to hell, like some mad necromancer animating 200 rats with a single animate dead.
Then again....