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The title pretty much says it all. If a hapless PC shares a square with multiple swarms at the end of the swarms' move, do they take the listed swarm damage only once, or separately for each swarm?
I am not having much success finding a clear answer in the PRD. creeping doom summons several swarms, and the damage doesn't stack, but this might be just a balancer for the spell, not something for all swarms. OTOH, swarm damage is a function of hit die, so it would seem that piling more HD (in the form of other swarms) might mean more damage.
This is an interesting question.
Do these creatures occupying the same square cause each other to be "cramped" like normal creatures? Seems reasonable, but swarms are a special case.
Since they are 2 different creatures, I'd have them function separately. If they were in the same square, I'd give them the cramped/squeezed condition. Lower AC to balance greater damage.
"It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size"
So multiple swarms should be able to occupy the same space no problem.
As for both doing damage...does the damage from multiple sword swings stack? Absolutely.
So, my pit trap full of spider swarms just got cooler...
So, my pit trap full of spider swarms just got cooler...
*shivers*
This is an interesting question.
Do these creatures occupying the same square cause each other to be "cramped" like normal creatures? Seems reasonable, but swarms are a special case.
Since they are 2 different creatures, I'd have them function separately. If they were in the same square, I'd give them the cramped/squeezed condition. Lower AC to balance greater damage.
You would have 3 creatures in the same square. The PC and the two swarms.
So, are we talking say 2 spider or rat swarms (I am assuming so) or a spider/rat and bat swarm?
If it were the former, it would make sense for the PC and swarms to be dissadvantaged in some fashion (squeezed condition etc).
If the later, it really would not make any difference as to the amount of space occupied. I think they would stack for damage/effects in that case without any penalties to the swarms. The PC might suffer worse if the swarms worked in a complimentary manner.
Thoughts?
By rules as written for swarms, Treantmonks got it.
I don't have books on hand, but I'm pretty sure there's a rule for the number of creatures that can occupy a square. If you extrapolate from that you should be able to generate a reasonable number of swarms per area. Otherwise the number is infinite and that can be bad.
Me, it'd combine the swarms into one super swarm and let their new HD determine damage.
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By rules as written for swarms, Treantmonks got it.
I don't have books on hand, but I'm pretty sure there's a rule for the number of creatures that can occupy a square. If you extrapolate from that you should be able to generate a reasonable number of swarms per area. Otherwise the number is infinite and that can be bad.
Me, it'd combine the swarms into one super swarm and let their new HD determine damage.
+1...I would treat it as a new, advanced version if the creature types were the same. a 2HD spider swarm joins another one and becomes an advanced, 4HD spider swarm. The challenge would appear if the swarms were different types. Say a centipede swarm merged with a spider swarm. I would think that they would be more likely to attack each other than join together. This becomes really complicated if two different swarms merge, but are controlled by the same creature, perhaps from multiple summonings. In this case, it may be that the two swarms occupy the same space but continue to damage independently
Me, it'd combine the swarms into one super swarm and let their new HD determine damage.
this seems like a good solution to the potential abuse of multiple summon swarm spells which might if it is straight stacking, while giving some benefit to multiples.
imagine an army of 3rd level clerics or druids, heck, even 20 would give 20d6 per round, but why stop there? plus it forces multiple saves with a duration of concentration. infinitely scaling damage, no save, no SR. Of course, it is dicey where they will end up after the initial summons, and there are defenses: DR 10 or so would give virtual immunity, flight/levitation (for rats or spiders), incorporeality, wind wall (or other wall spells) or blasts would stop them if there is time to cast beforehand. Still, this seems like it is an unusually effective 2nd level spell for a swarm of mook casters even against (unprepared) high level opponents.
The swarms would deal damage to each other as well as any hapless character caught in the middle. Which still makes for a cool fight (a swarm of bees vs a swarm of hornets and a pc pumped full of venom)
I elect you winner of the thread. This solves the problem of multiple swarms elegantly. They just eat each other, and whoever is unfortunate enough to get caught within. It only poses a problem if the swarms cannot damage each other for whatever reason. Well done sir. Well done indeed.
The description saying it can occupy the same square as another creature, another swarm is also a creature. Don't think that would leave much room for more creatures.
The swarms would deal damage to each other as well as any hapless character caught in the middle. Which still makes for a cool fight (a swarm of bees vs a swarm of hornets and a pc pumped full of venom)
Do you mean that if they are different types of swarms?
If not, it doesn't make much sense. I see no reason why swarms of the same type would automatically attack each other. If that were the case, why wouldn't the swarm destroy itself?
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The swarms would deal damage to each other as well as any hapless character caught in the middle. Which still makes for a cool fight (a swarm of bees vs a swarm of hornets and a pc pumped full of venom)Do you mean that if they are different types of swarms?
If not, it doesn't make much sense. I see no reason why swarms of the same type would automatically attack each other. If that were the case, why wouldn't the swarm destroy itself?
Two different colonies of bees would happily destroy each other.
Two different colonies of ants would destroy each other because they smell funny.
Perhaps two different bat swarms are slightly different types (white eared vampire bats vs. red vampire bats).
In any case, there's the simulation logic.
Otherwise it works that way because it seems a fair interpretation of the rules.
I agree there are plenty of situations where swarms would kill each other. What I meant is: can 2 of the same type of swarm function in tandem?
Is it unfair to have 2 swarms "work together?"
If they occupy the same space, then any damage done to one swarm should be done to the other equally.
Well, I certainly understand if you run it that way. Under most conditions, I'd also do that.
However, if the swarms were of the identical type, I'd allow them to function together.
Swarms don't do AoE damage. They don't damage by walking on creatures. They are biting, stinging and clawing at enemies. They don't damage themselves. If they can avoid damaging themselves, they can avoid damaging identical creatures from a different swarm, IMO.
Now, centipedes and spiders... totally killing each other. 2 different types of spiderd... totally killing each other. 2 swarms of the exact same type of bees... run.
I don't know about unfair, but swarms are always a difficult proposition for low level adventurers.
For sure. Unless the group has an alchemist. Even then, it's tough.
If they occupy the same space, then any damage done to one swarm should be done to the other equally.
So, 2 swarms move into a square with a PC.
The PC takes damage from both swarms.
Each swarm takes damage from the other.
If either (or both) swarm falls to 0 hp, it
disperses.
correct?
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If they occupy the same space, then any damage done to one swarm should be done to the other equally.So, 2 swarms move into a square with a PC.
The PC takes damage from both swarms.
Each swarm takes damage from the other.
If either (or both) swarm falls to 0 hp, it
disperses.correct?
That's how I'd run it.
Don't forget that Diminuative and Fine swarms are immune to physical damage. RAW, two such swarms would be immune to each others' damage.
Don't forget that Diminuative and Fine swarms are immune to physical damage. RAW, two such swarms would be immune to each others' damage.
They are immune to weapon damage, not physical damage. Can't think of another source of physical damage other than swarm damage and weapons, but I don't think Diminuative and Fine swarms are immune to each other.