I'm cunnrently playing a Kingmaker campaign, run by a friend and I was wondering if the Dragon Disciple prestige class is any good? For the record, the campaign has been quite combat intense so far (we are about halfway through book 2) and the player of our wizard is getting tired of playing a caster. I was considering rolling a sorcerer and heading deep into the Dragon Disciple, since the character would be 6th level I was thinking 2/3 levels of sorcerer, 2/3 of fighter and the rest DD. Could you advice me if this sort of a character would be useful as a combat caster / spell enhanced melee fighter? The rest of the party consists of a paladin, an inquisitor/rogue and a barbarian (the new character of the wizard).
What I meant is that I'm really not very experienced in building characters that have levels in more than one class, and was wondering on what feats, stats and so on I should take to make the character not die in the first combat encounter. I was thinking of using a 2-hander, perhaps getting the feats that let you ignore spell failure chance and using the sorcerer spells to boost the damage and to help in doing it (true strike, invisibility and so). Perhaps also getting some mithral armor to get some AC without hampering spellcasting. The stats I would concentrate on would propably be Cha/Str/Int, in that order. Would that work or are there some obvious holes I am missing?
The dragon disciple is just fine as a melee fighter, and fairly lousy as a spellcaster (in my opinion, of course). Strength, strength and more strength -- that's the ticket!
I'd probably go with bard levels instead of sorcerer (something like bard 4/fighter 1), personally (although you would miss out on True Strike without using UMD). That way you can cast in armor and you can get a "two-for-one" skill via Versatile Performance, not to mention a little party boost from Inspire Courage.
EDIT: Ah, I see you don't have another arcane caster. That could be tough.
The dragon disciple is just fine as a melee fighter, and fairly lousy as a spellcaster (in my opinion, of course). Strength, strength and more strength -- that's the ticket!
I'd probably go with bard levels instead of sorcerer, personally (although you would miss out on True Strike without using UMD). That way you can cast in armor and you can get a "two-for-one" skill via Versatile Performance, not to mention a little party boost from Inspire Courage.
EDIT: Ah, I see you don't have another arcane caster. That could be tough.
Well, we might, since the guy who has the wizard has a sort of on/off thing with it. I'm also planning this type of a character in case my main one is killed and I would prefer a melee fighter to a full caster.
Bard -> Dragon Disciple is an excellent choice.
I like bard 7 DD 10 honestly.
You will be a bit slower on getting spells, but you will have them and have an excellent selection of them too.
I would probably stat on long these lines:
Str > Con > Dex=Int=Cha > Wis.
In 3.5 the melee dragon disciple was the only real use for it, but its a perfectly viable spellcaster choice for a sorceror now too; go for it :). The HD upgrade is on average 3hp/level higher than a straight sorceror, which is tasty.
Unless your favored class went to HP in which case it's only a +2 HP/ level. In the end the DD toughens you up... but at too much cost for a sorcerer IMO.
Given your party, I'd say you don't need dragon disciple.
What you need are utility spells like fly and haste, along with battlefield control, like web and stinking cloud. There's no one else in the party who could do that.
Yes, melee damage is nice, but that's the one thing that the rest of the party is already good at.
Well, when I would start using this character the party might look different from what it is now, but thanks for the info. I really haven't got much experience in prestige classes, when I played 3.5 I tended to stay well away from then. I'll probably try DD just because it seems to be very different from the kind of characters I usually play, it seems to have quite a bit more utility, especially later, than a pure fighter.
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I am currently playing a Sorc 1 / Monk 4 / DD 1 (soon to be 2) in a friend's game. I think the DD is more then playable, and actually complements a monk really well. I'm behind the party tanks on AC, and even behind a point or two in to hit, but I think I'm actually leading the group in damage output when I connect with a full attack sequence.
Treantmonk's Monk guide is a really strong place to start, but here are a few specifics that I think really help the build be competitive:
- To borrow terms from that other game, you are a "striker" not a "defender", so in many cases, sacrifice AC for offensive ability. The biggest point here is to break from the logic that Monks are Wis based, this build is completely Str based instead.
- Mage Armor is a cheap way to help recover some of the AC loss you net with an offense-based build (and you get it as a bonus spell later anyway).
- Power Attack is your friend. Since all attacks in a flurry gain the "main hand" bonus of PA, you come out ahead in damage over other 2-weapon fighting builds. Unless you are facing horribly high AC opponents, you should almost always be Power Attacking.
- Arcane Strike is an awesome feat, possibly near overpowered at higher levels.
- Monks can deliver touch spells with an unarmed strike. So, if you have to move in combat, you likely are best to cast Charged Fist (an essential spell for this build, IMHO) and punch to deliver the charge. If you are out of 1st lvl spells for the day, think about 5-foot stepping and flurrying with shuriken (all of which gain the Arcane Strike bonus damage). {If your game uses Traits, be sure to pick up the one that grants bonus caster levels, gives you extra dice on your charged fist}.
- To milk the most damage out of the build, think of picking up an Amulet of Mighty Fists with an elemental damage type rather then an enhancement bonus (for flavor, pick the same elemental type as your DD breath attack). Arcane Strike gives you an enhancement bonus to damage, Ki Strike makes your weapons count as magic, so the only thing a straight + gives you is to hit. The d6 elemental damage is likely better bang for the buck.
Another nice way into DD is Paladin 2/Sorcerer 3, which complements each other quite well.
Thanks, that sorcerer/monk build looks interesting, what should I go for once I finish the DD? More monk or sorcerer?
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For RP reasons, my DD is likely going to go into Ranger (to get dragons as a favored enemy). If not for that, I would think that monk levels would be better because of the unarmed damage progression. In the current build he is currently stagnated at dealing 1d8 per attack. For that reason you likely will want to pick up a Monk's Robe (and/or Tattoos if the GM is allowing them). A wand of Enlarge Person (or someone to cast it on you) is also pretty awesome, as it pretty much doubles your damage dice.
I also want to be sure to note that this build is not going ever have the DCs needed to make spells like Fireball very effective, and won't even reach the needed caster level until late in his career. So, if your party is counting on you to be the artillery mage, you may be in trouble. However, with a few points in Knowledge: Arcana and Spellcraft, you can still effectively be the IdentifyBot they might be looking for.
Thanks, that sorcerer/monk build looks interesting, what should I go for once I finish the DD? More monk or sorcerer?
Are you planning on playing the same character after level 15?
For what it's worth, I'm playing a sorcerer/monk/dragon disciple as well (in a PbP Savage Tide game, see profile for the character's details). I was planning on doing something like:
1 level of sorcerer
4 levels of monk
4 levels of dragon disciple
4 more levels of monk
6 more levels of dragon disciple
maybe 1 level of sorcerer?
We will probably play the whole Kingmaker campaign and I think the level will be 17 when the last book starts, but I might be wrong. I don't know if we'll ever hit level 20.
Thanks for the hints so far, I'll have to see how it goes when we play again. One last question I had was that what stats I should go for, I think I will have 25 points to buy with, assuming I go for 1/sorc/4monk start?
Thanks, that sorcerer/monk build looks interesting, what should I go for once I finish the DD? More monk or sorcerer?Are you planning on playing the same character after level 15?
For what it's worth, I'm playing a sorcerer/monk/dragon disciple as well (in a PbP Savage Tide game, see profile for the character's details). I was planning on doing something like:
1 level of sorcerer
4 levels of monk
4 levels of dragon disciple
4 more levels of monk
6 more levels of dragon disciple
maybe 1 level of sorcerer?
I'm not sure that taking a second level of sorcerer would get you much. It looks to me like you'd get more benefit out of taking that ninth monk level.
Another thing I was wondering about is if I should use the natural weapons that come from the bloodline powers and the dragon bite, or the flurry of blows, since, as far as I understood, the natural weapon attacks all hit at the full base attack bonus? Of course, it also last for a limited number of rounds every day. Also, is it possible to use the improved natural weapon feat from the bestiary when you have that ability? It could be used to get a really nasty bite attack.
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Breaking into separate questions for ease of answering.
1) Should I use the natural weapons that come from the bloodline powers and the dragon bite, or the flurry of blows.
2) Do all the natural weapon attacks all hit at the full base attack bonus?
3) Is it possible to use the improved natural weapon feat from the bestiary when you have that ability?
1) It depends. Your build is varying from mine a little, but there was a level (the first one I got bite), where I got 3 attacks when I "dragoned-out" (claw, claw, bit), but only 2 with a flurry. The very next level I got 3 with flurry, but I used the claws a lot more that one level.
Also, the claws are slashing; the bite is piercing; unarmed strike is bludgeoning. So, there are times using "dragoning-out" would help bypass DR and net more damage.
However, barring those two situations, no, generally speaking the claws/bite will be inferior to your unarmed attack progression (since they use smaller damage dice), and thus shouldn't be used.
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2) Yes, for a DD, both claws and bite are considered "primary attacks" so would all be at highest BAB (though not the extra BAB granted by flurry). Furthermore, they all receive your full strength modifier, and the normal benefits of a primary hand attack for the sake of Power Attack.
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3) Yes, when using bite or claw attacks, the Improved Natural Attack feat would apply. However, as documented in several threads on this forum, Imp Nat Att would not apply to the Monk's normal unarmed attacks.
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As for general input about the bites and claws... I mainly used them for RP. I would burn the round of them every time I wanted to intimidate someone (think of an interrogator turning effectively into a were-dragon in front of you... my GM would give me a +2 circumstance bonus for the visual effect, though YMMV depending on your GM). I also used it one to appear more "dragony" in order to talk (aka diplomacy) with a dragon, and eventually to taunt another dragon (again, +2 circumstance bonuses were granted). Lastly, I would also grow the claws whenever I was really mad or really hurt. The RP effect was a kind of barbarian monk, even though I never actually lost my head, and thus was able to keep my lawful alignment. The claws coming out worked out to be a great hint to the party cleric that I needed healing too.
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I'm cunnrently playing a Kingmaker campaign, run by a friend and I was wondering if the Dragon Disciple prestige class is any good? For the record, the campaign has been quite combat intense so far (we are about halfway through book 2) and the player of our wizard is getting tired of playing a caster. I was considering rolling a sorcerer and heading deep into the Dragon Disciple, since the character would be 6th level I was thinking 2/3 levels of sorcerer, 2/3 of fighter and the rest DD. Could you advice me if this sort of a character would be useful as a combat caster / spell enhanced melee fighter? The rest of the party consists of a paladin, an inquisitor/rogue and a barbarian (the new character of the wizard).
What I meant is that I'm really not very experienced in building characters that have levels in more than one class, and was wondering on what feats, stats and so on I should take to make the character not die in the first combat encounter. I was thinking of using a 2-hander, perhaps getting the feats that let you ignore spell failure chance and using the sorcerer spells to boost the damage and to help in doing it (true strike, invisibility and so). Perhaps also getting some mithral armor to get some AC without hampering spellcasting. The stats I would concentrate on would propably be Cha/Str/Int, in that order. Would that work or are there some obvious holes I am missing?
Recently saw a Gnome Barbarian / Sorcerer / Dragon Disciple wreck face all through Second Darkness. Power Attack + Enlarge Person + Strength Bonus + Greatsword = chopped faces (knees in his case.)
The claws came out in grapples, or if he got really, really angry. They also were used when he got swarmed, disarmed, and beaten unconscious.
Personally, I'd rather be a spellcasting Sorcerer, but the melee 2-Hander is very doable.
Bard to DD is really slick, though, and every little bit of party (or self) boost adds up.
How would that Bard-based build work? I'm ashamed to admit that I have never played a bard in post-AD&D versions of the game and I suspect it was quite different then.
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How would that Bard-based build work? I'm ashamed to admit that I have never played a bard in post-AD&D versions of the game and I suspect it was quite different then.
It depends on how many bard levels you end up taking. If you take just one to qualify for the class then take monk or barbarian, or anything else, to fill in the rest of the waiting time for DD, then you really don't play like a bard, instead you play like a monk or barbarian, or whatever. You get alot of the same benefits as the sorcerer, except 1 level slower (since only your DD levels stack for determining the benefits of the bloodline). You trade that level delay for the bard's music and better skill options.
If instead you want to take bard all the way into DD, I would suggest looking up Treantmonk's Bard guide. A DD would make an excellent controller Bard, especially to one focused on whip maneuvers.
Incidentally, if you do not use flurry, but simply a full attack can you also attack with all the natural weapons you have? We had quite a long break in the campaign and the first game after my last post will be today.
I was thinking this, since the monk class specifically states that you don't need hands to perform your unarmed attacks.
Incidentally, if you do not use flurry, but simply a full attack can you also attack with all the natural weapons you have? We had quite a long break in the campaign and the first game after my last post will be today.
I was thinking this, since the monk class specifically states that you don't need hands to perform your unarmed attacks.
I think you probably could, but your natural attacks would be secondary attacks if you mix them with normal attacks.
Hello, I would like to ask for some more advice on this build. The campaign has been on a hiatus for more than a year now, but it is starting again and since our character sheets were lost when the GM moved we are making new ones. I tried the monk/sorcerer/DD build, but found it quite fragile as the GM prevented me from buying any of the magical stuff that would enhance AC and in general he seemed to hate the monk class.
I am now rebuilding this character as a bard/DD, any suggestions on that aside from 7 bard / 3 DD (lv 10 character)? I will propably go for a 2-handed sword and as heavy armour as I can use, but what else should I do or not do?
Greetings, fellow travellers.
Did you have a look at Oterisk's Guide to the DD? It gives you (almost) everything you need on the dos and donts - there's also a discussion on these boards.
Bard7/DDX is really nice, since you get to use bardic performance as a move action, though bard6/DDX works just fine, too.
If you have the chance, I'd pick Arcane Duelist as archetype for your bard, since it gives you Arcane Strike as a bonus feat on lvl1, Combat Casting on lvl2 and Disruptiv(?) on lvl6.
The bard is not proficient with a greatsword, nor does the DD gain proficiency. I'd go for the longspear for reach or the longsword and wield it two-handed. An enchanted mithral breastplate will be your armor of choice.
Pick Gold Dragon as your draconic ancestry - the thing here is not the breath weapon but the resistance to fire you will get.
Standard feats should include Toughness, Imp. Initiative and depending on what point buy, you might need Iron Will or similar. I'd also pick up Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display and Intimidating Prowress - your enemies should be shaken for the whole of combat, adding a nice touch to your other supportive abilities by bardic performance and bard's spells.
Keep in mind that Toughness and Imp. Initiative are also on the list for your bonus feats you'll gain as DD - so you might want to delay them.
If you're allowed to use APG stuff take a look at the favored class options offered there - for bards it's now either hp/skill rank or a spell you can learn in addition to the normal progression. Keep in mind, that you'll receive either benefit only for your bard levels though - this limits the spells to spell level 3 at the most (and only one); 7 hp might therefore be more handy.
Ruyan.