Why is it that the casters have to waste their feats so that non-casters can get cheap magical items?
It seems to me that if a Fighter wants a magic sword and armor then *he* can take Craft Magic Arms and Armor as a feat and my wizard can stop by and cast the spells for him when needed (for a small fee of course).
I have also thought about not requiring the feats at all. You could just say that if they have a high enough caster level, they can enchant the item.
So how about it? Has anyone else changed how the crafting feats worked?
Why is it that the casters have to waste their feats so that non-casters can get cheap magical items?
If players are looking for "cheap" magical items, then they are playing the wrong game. You are SUPPOSED to go out and adventure! Seek out powerful magics and when that fails, loot everything you can and sell it so you can afford retail magic prices.
Sounds to me like lazy players want other PC's to make them cheap magical goods for them.
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Why is it that the casters have to waste their feats so that non-casters can get cheap magical items?
It seems to me that if a Fighter wants a magic sword and armor then *he* can take Craft Magic Arms and Armor as a feat and my wizard can stop by and cast the spells for him when needed (for a small fee of course). (Ka-snip)
The fighter CAN craft his own arms and armor, or even wondrous items. See the Master Craftsman feat, PF Core pg. 130. I don't have the link for the PFSRD; sorry.
Now then, about not requiring feats, you have to realize that you're giving your players a powerful tool with magic item creation. It would make a lot more sense to me if you did it without feats in 3.5, because magic items had a much more severe cost - XP. However, in PF, the only cost of creating magic items is gold. Casters with free creation feats can, potentially, break the system by creating magic items en masse. That's why, IMO, they cost a feat. You have to invest part of your character into doing it, so it becomes a much more serious endeavor.
Same reason clerics waste their Channels and spell slots on cures so the party can receive cheap healing?
Of course, there are other alternatives. The fighter can easily pick up Master Craftsman or the trait that allows you to take Craft Arms and Armor. He doesn't even need the wizard, just adds 5 to the DC to make the item.
@Abjurer - I miss XP costs, but I think I'm one of very few that do.
Happy gaming.
Barator
Well, I completely overlooked the Master Craftsman feat. So thanks for pointing that out. That is a big improvement.
I would say it is very different from the clerics using channeling or spells to heal though. A cleric healing is like the wizard casting Mage Armor on the Monk or Bull's Strength on the Fighter, or Invisibility on the Rogue. They are just being useful.
Now if the Cleric had to take a feat so that my Wizard could save some money on scribing spells into his spell book, that would be equivalent.
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@Abjurer - I miss XP costs, but I think I'm one of very few that do.
Happy gaming.
Barator
Yeah, it didn't really bother me either way. The cost in XP really wasn't that significant at low level(1xp for a 1st level scroll and such,) and at higher levels, you shouldn't be churning items out like a factory anyway. However, my group, with the exception of myself, crafted exactly zero magical items during our 3.X edition run. They balked at the idea of losing XP. Then again, they also balked at the idea of having an ability below 10 as well...kind of a narrow-minded group.
I almost never take crafting feats and have never taken crafting feats for stuff my character can't use. I'm not sure where you get the impression you have to take them.
This.
But then I'm in the "hate XP costs" group too so take it for what it's worth :)
I almost never take crafting feats and have never taken crafting feats for stuff my character can't use. I'm not sure where you get the impression you have to take them.
I'm not sure where people get the impression that I get the impression that I have to take them. I asked why should I take the feat. I didn't ask why do I have to take the feat.
Apparently there is no reason at all for my wizard to take the feat as the fighter can now do it himself.
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I'm not sure where people get the impression that I get the impression that I have to take them. I asked why should I take the feat. I didn't ask why do I have to take the feat.
Apparently there is no reason at all for my wizard to take the feat as the fighter can now do it himself.
Pretty much, although some people might want to play an artificer-type caster. It's pretty much there if you want it - if not, do what you think makes your character fun.
Just make sure the party knows they must use the proper name of the magic item when you give it to them! Require all the players to do something like this every time they use your items.
Fighter: "I attack the dragon with The Mighty Sword of Thazar The Great!"
Or
Thief: "I don the Thazarian Cloak of Greater Invisibility and sneak up on the giant for a sneak attack!"
Everything comes with a price in one form or another. LOL
I'm in the 'Hate-XP loss' category when 3.X was concerned, but with PF i find almost every Wizard i play has at least Craft Wondrous. The savings in gp are definitely worth it.
It basically doubles your gold for a couple of feats, what's not to love?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Just make sure the party knows they must use the proper name of the magic item when you give it to them! Require all the players to do something like this every time they use your items.
Fighter: "I attack the dragon with The Mighty Sword of Thazar The Great!"
Or
Thief: "I don the Thazarian Cloak of Greater Invisibility and sneak up on the giant for a sneak attack!"
Everything comes with a price in one form or another. LOL
OMG I'm totally going to do that from now on.
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I'm not sure where people get the impression that I get the impression that I have to take them. I asked why should I take the feat. I didn't ask why do I have to take the feat.
I think they got it from the first sentence you wrote,
Why is it that the casters have to waste their feats so that non-casters can get cheap magical items?
Same reason clerics waste their Channels and spell slots on cures so the party can receive cheap healing?
Of course, there are other alternatives. The fighter can easily pick up Master Craftsman or the trait that allows you to take Craft Arms and Armor. He doesn't even need the wizard, just adds 5 to the DC to make the item.
@Abjurer - I miss XP costs, but I think I'm one of very few that do.
Happy gaming.
Barator
I miss XP costs too. Anything to keep the mages from getting out of line.
Who says that I as the wizard who took craft arms and armor has to sell the sword I made at cost to the party fighter? Tell ya what, I'll sell it for 75% market price. If he doesn't like it, he can pay retail.
This is my take as well. If I take an Item Creation Feat, I do so to make things *I* want (and that are generally not available). If the party wants something made, they pay 75% and are happy to do so.
I've had one character also tack a little of 'Thazar' in there...as the only Lawful in the group, I offered enchanted items at cost, but only if the item had the symbol of the group identity that I was trying to promote (and the other characters were 'meh' about).
I almost never take crafting feats and have never taken crafting feats for stuff my character can't use. I'm not sure where you get the impression you have to take them.
I'm not sure where people get the impression that I get the impression that I have to take them. I asked why should I take the feat. I didn't ask why do I have to take the feat.
Apparently there is no reason at all for my wizard to take the feat as the fighter can now do it himself.
Take them for your selfe in the first place! When there is time left (a proper gm make sure that you count time) you can make something for the rest of the party.
In my group there are always two party members with itemcreation. To make sure every one gets the items for decent prices. But those two are alays taking care of them self first.
Well, since the wizard *can't* sell it at market cost, why penalize the fighter.
Selling Treasure. Click on the link and search for "Selling Treasure" and read the next line ("In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.")
-- david
Papa.DRB
Who says that I as the wizard who took craft arms and armor has to sell the sword I made at cost to the party fighter? Tell ya what, I'll sell it for 75% market price. If he doesn't like it, he can pay retail.This is my take as well. If I take an Item Creation Feat, I do so to make things *I* want (and that are generally not available). If the party wants something made, they pay 75% and are happy to do so.
I will have mages that take craft wonderous item, and in the process make things for my character and the party. Unless I am playing a MASH(Martial Arcane Spellcaster Hybrid) i wont take craft magic arms and armor. I will still make things for the rest of the party, the fighter needs a cloak of resistance too after all. I just wont take a feat that is completely useless to my character.
Of course Fighters have tons of skill points to spare for investing in spellcraft.Why is it that the casters have to waste their feats so that non-casters can get cheap magical items?
It seems to me that if a Fighter wants a magic sword and armor then *he* can take Craft Magic Arms and Armor as a feat and my wizard can stop by and cast the spells for him when needed (for a small fee of course).
Fighters should probably go the Master Craftsman route. They do not need spellcraft for that... and since a lot of fighters take craft Weapon and/or Craft Armor it is not really a "skill tax". And if you are playing a fighter that is not smart enough, or even interested in, making armor or weapons then they probably should not be interested in making magic versions of those either.
Perhaps you are missing the point. Once you take these creation feats you can sell the goods to anyone, not just make things for your party members, and more importantly that fighter is saving your but by killing large and nasty creatures that would love to squish your unarmored and pretentious mage. Now maybe you are of the opinion that your mage can kill anything without the help of the rest of the party but if this is true, then why play a game based upon a group of multiple characters working together.
There is no requirement that you take these feats and with the xp penalty gone now, why not? You can make many amazing items for yourself as well. The idea is that everyone works together to accomplish there goals and that as the caster of powerful magics the mage is more likely to be able to provide magic weapons for the fighter whose only skills are kill that evil thing quickly!
In the past I have always made the other players pay for the item when i crafted it for them, plus a little extra for time and the spells required. My general view was if Bobbo The Warrior has a +4 Suit of Armor, he will be around that much longer to aid me in my quest to acquire the spellbooks of Disasteroso the Great Mage of nastiness.
I have had other players charge a little extra for the crafting process.
and if the other player refuses to pay or whatever, you can always build a curse into the item. (this happened in one of my campaigns, the results were not pretty and actually led to a real life black eye!)
As far as making magic items to sell, generally when selling to other organizations (magic shop, guild, etc) you're only gonna get the reduced price. but when selling to the general public (ie a wizard player has a magic shop) i allow the pc to sell at market price with a random chance each week of selling the item.
Now if the Cleric had to take a feat so that my Wizard could save some money on scribing spells into his spell book, that would be equivalent.
Oh, you mean like Extra Channeling or Selective Channel so they can keep your sorry, greedy mage ass standing during combat? ;)
Maybe the fighter/paladin/monk/etc. should charge a "mage protection tax"?
Maybe the fighter/paladin/monk/etc. should charge a "mage protection tax"?
I Heart this statement!
Perhaps you are missing the point. Once you take these creation feats you can sell the goods to anyone, not just make things for your party members, and more importantly that fighter is saving your but by killing large and nasty creatures that would love to squish your unarmored and pretentious mage. Now maybe you are of the opinion that your mage can kill anything without the help of the rest of the party but if this is true, then why play a game based upon a group of multiple characters working together.
There is no requirement that you take these feats and with the xp penalty gone now, why not?
This.
I am completely confused by the original post... with the XP payment gone, why the heck wouldn't spellcasters take item creation feats? Any and all items you want, at half price? WTF is the problem?
And it doesn't cost the spellcaster anything if another party member needs an item, since the other party member can pay for it... and at the same time, you're helping your own party members with your feat.
What am I missing?
Now if the Cleric had to take a feat so that my Wizard could save some money on scribing spells into his spell book, that would be equivalent.Oh, you mean like Extra Channeling or Selective Channel so they can keep your sorry, greedy mage ass standing during combat? ;)
Maybe the fighter/paladin/monk/etc. should charge a "mage protection tax"?
Again, not the same. The wizard takes feats to make him more effective in combat and so do the clerics and fighters. They all help each other either by doing damage, healing damage or taking damage. If a cleric doesn't want to heal or a fighter doesn't want to fight, then the wizard doesn't need to include them inside his Wall of Force spell, they can sit outside with the enemies.
What I was talking about was taking a feat that was completely useless for my wizard, but would save other characters money. I thought it unreasonable that there is a feat that the fighter would want, but couldn't get, but that the wizard could get so that the fighter could use it. That's like the fighter taking Spell Focus so that my wizard could get +1 to my spell DCs. I would never ask him to do that, so he shouldn't ask me to take Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
The Master Craftsman feat fixes this I guess, but I will probably just forget the Master Craftsman feat altogether and just allow players with a high enough skill to take the Crafting feats. If you want to spend the skill points and a feat to make magic items, I see no need to make you spend TWO feats to do it. I will also allow them to take Forge Ring. If they can make an amulet, I see no reason why they can't make a ring as well.
Edit: The whole point of my original post was I thought that anybody, not just casters, should be able to take the Craft Items feats. Apparently Pazio agreed and made a feat that allows them to do so.
I'm not sure where people get the impression that I get the impression that I have to take them. I asked why should I take the feat. I didn't ask why do I have to take the feat.
I think they got it from the first sentence you wrote,
Why is it that the casters have to waste their feats so that non-casters can get cheap magical items?
Also, you labeled your thread "Caster Feat Tax". If taxes are optional in your country, I'm packing my bags tonight and moving there!
:-)
Also, you labeled your thread "Caster Feat Tax". If taxes are optional in your country, I'm packing my bags tonight and moving there!:-)
Fair enough. I may have exaggerated a little to stir up conversation. So I concede that it is not really a tax and I don't think a caster has to take them.
I am completely confused by the original post... with the XP payment gone, why the heck wouldn't spellcasters take item creation feats? Any and all items you want, at half price? WTF is the problem?
And it doesn't cost the spellcaster anything if another party member needs an item, since the other party member can pay for it... and at the same time, you're helping your own party members with your feat.
What am I missing?
I agree that they are useful, but they are useful in such a way that if one person takes the feat, then no one else needs to. If I take Empower Spell that doesn't mean the Cleric can use it as well. He also has to take Empower Spell. But if I take Craft Wonderous Item, he doesn't need to take it, he can just use mine. So why doesn't he take it and then I can use his?
Now we could each take a different one and then make things for each other and that works out great for us, but what about the Fighter and Rogue?
Before people jump on me about helping the party. I am willing to take one for the team, but that is only if others are equally willing. It may be that several of us each take a crafting feat and cover all the bases and that leaves us with one guy that doesn't need to take any, and that's fine! But I am not going to take them all so no one else has to.
I agree with the sentiment that a caster does not need to take a feat for the party as most of the party does not take a feat that helps only the party. If a cleric takes more channelling then I am inclined to help him; otherwise it's everyone for themselves...
Oh and the master craftmen feat isn't very good. U still need to take craft magic and arms to enhance armor. So you need 2 feats to do what the spellcaster does with one feat.
Is this for real? "I mold reality to my whim! Why should I help the stupid, helpless, lowly fighter who can't do anything?"
Don't help him, then! In fact, don't include him at all -- play in a party of all primary casters (at high levels, it works better than a party woth dedicated melees anyway). Of course, then you won't feel so special anymore.
And since you're so jealous of "your" feats being used to benefit anyone else, make sure that you take Improved Initiative instead, so that when the group does find a magic item, you can kill the rest of the party before they react -- that way you don't have to share "your" loot, either.
but they are useful in such a way that if one person takes the feat, then no one else needs to. If I take Empower Spell that doesn't mean the Cleric can use it as well. He also has to take Empower Spell. But if I take Craft Wonderous Item, he doesn't need to take it, he can just use mine.
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I am willing to take one for the team
Hrm. :/ I still don't see the distinction. I guess it's just a mindset that I can't get my head around.
As someone who isn't a fan of metamagic...what the hell other feats are you going to take? :p
As someone who isn't a fan of metamagic...what the hell other feats are you going to take? :p
Spell Mastery!
Spell Focus: Enchantment, Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Evocation, Augment Summoning, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Counterspell, Great Fortitude, Improved Great Fortitude, Eschew Materials, Spell Mastery, Combat Casting, Toughness, Improved Initiative
And of course I like Metamagic feats, so: Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, etc.
I have lots of things to spend feats on.
Why is it that the casters have to waste their feats so that non-casters can get cheap magical items?
Why not just charge them full price? After all, they're using YOUR downtime, YOUR skills and feats...and they have guaranteed access to someone who CAN make what they're after.
Enlightened self-interest says that charging them only the construction cost makes for more powerful allies (= good thing), but by the same token, keeping your wizard buddy happy about making you stuff is ALSO a good thing. The wizard having more money means the wizard is more powerful too, right? So the logic works both ways - charging full price or charging half price are BOTH good for the party (though admittedly, charging only 1/2 price is probably better for the party, but Wizards have other things to spend money on, like scrolls, spell scribing, wand creation, etcetera).
The only item creation feat that doesn't really benefit wizards is the one everyone else wants - Craft Magic Arms and Armor. IOW it's your biggest seller. However, Clerics and Druids should be more motivated to take this feat (that and Brew Potion). I agree with whomever said that item creation feats should be spread throughout the party.
If your party has a problem with you charging full price, haggle down to 75%. You still make tons of cash and they get magic items for cheaper than normal retail. Win-win. Point out you could be spending that time making stuff for yourself, or scribing spells into your book, or doing what they're doing - wenching and drinking while they're waiting for their new gadget.
75% Party cost absolutely.
You make what they save - you should both be happy. Chances are you have higher costs than they do anyway.
Sigurd
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Spell Focus: Enchantment, Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Evocation, Augment Summoning, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Counterspell, Great Fortitude, Improved Great Fortitude, Eschew Materials, Spell Mastery, Combat Casting, Toughness, Improved Initiative
And of course I like Metamagic feats, so: Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, etc.
I have lots of things to spend feats on.
Bolded the ones I tend to take a lot. I've never understood this whole idea that wizards don't have a lot of good feats to take. You missed Silent Spell and maybe still spell.
Spell Focus: Enchantment, Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Evocation, Augment Summoning, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Counterspell, Great Fortitude, Improved Great Fortitude, Eschew Materials, Spell Mastery, Combat Casting, Toughness, Improved Initiative
And of course I like Metamagic feats, so: Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, etc.
I have lots of things to spend feats on.
...Who on earth takes Spell Focus: evocation o_O
Spell focus and GSF for your specialized school and you're set ;p.
Counterspell? Now I know you're joking ;p
Bolded the ones I tend to take a lot. I've never understood this whole idea that wizards don't have a lot of good feats to take. You missed Silent Spell and maybe still spell.Spell Focus: Enchantment, Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Evocation, Augment Summoning, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Counterspell, Great Fortitude, Improved Great Fortitude, Eschew Materials, Spell Mastery, Combat Casting, Toughness, Improved Initiative
And of course I like Metamagic feats, so: Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, etc.
I have lots of things to spend feats on.
Eschew materials too. I prefer at least one spell mastery somewhere around ninth level.