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A barbarian PC wants to grab someone and beat someone to death or unconciousness with him.
The PC's target is a Medium human.
The PC's weapon is a Medium human.
How would you run this?
How would this change if the PC's weapon was a Small halfling or gnome instead?
Somewhat related to the old question of beating an alligator to death with another alligator.
Excellent timing as I'm curious about this as well to keep in mind for an upcoming PbP. =)
If the person being bludgeoned with unconscious/dead? If so, then I'd say the person would count as an improvised weapon doing slightly less damage than a greatclub. (All the squishy bits, you see.)
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If the person being bludgeoned with unconscious/dead? If so, then I'd say the person would count as an improvised weapon doing slightly less damage than a greatclub. (All the squishy bits, you see.)
That reminds me....this discussion may help with any GMs wishing to run an encounter with ogres playing manswords.
I was assuming the other person is alive, but I guess all three living/dead conditions should be considered...
Ug.
Well, *I* would have it fail automatically out of sheer stupidity.
Failing that, I would try to convince the player in question that he could throw one person into another and do some damage, but physically swinging around a medium creature like a weapon ain't gonna do it. In order to throw another creature, you should be able to lift their total weight above your head. If they are not helpless, you should make CMB v. CMD + 10 roll (unless there are already rules for this). Then resolve as a ranged attack with a 5 foot increment and dealing 1d6 for every 50 pounds the thrown target ways.
If they persisted with the notion that melee attacks were even possible, I would give them the -4 penalty and deal non-lethal damage. Plus flat-footed for wielding a weapon that is the same size as you.
Ug.
Well, *I* would have it fail automatically out of sheer stupidity.
Failing that, I would try to convince the player in question that he could throw one person into another and do some damage, but physically swinging around a medium creature like a weapon ain't gonna do it. In order to throw another creature, you should be able to lift their total weight above your head. If they are not helpless, you should make CMB v. CMD + 10 roll (unless there are already rules for this). Then resolve as a ranged attack with a 5 foot increment and dealing 1d6 for every 50 pounds the thrown target ways.
If they persisted with the notion that melee attacks were even possible, I would give them the -4 penalty and deal non-lethal damage. Plus flat-footed for wielding a weapon that is the same size as you.
THat's what you should do in a serious game. The rest of us are going to keep assuming they mean a silly game, because that's just more interesting to talk about.
You might have weight issues, but mitigated either fully or partially by barbarian rage. I'd rule the bludgeoner must be able to lift the bludgeon overhead to use as a weapon. Davi's damage idea might be OK. Single attack only, full round action, cleave and whirlwind allowed. An unwilling, conscious bludgeon could be allowed a grapple break attempt each round.
There's also the condition where the "weaponized" medium creature is itself wielding a weapon....
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I think I'd wind up having to take the size of any weapon the weaponized person is holding onto into consideration before the barbarian could weild him. Ironically that makes the situation better for the weildee: If he holds onto his longsword, it's going to be much harder for the barb to pull the stunt off. If he's got a dagger, he has something to stab up some retribution.
THat's what you should do in a serious game. The rest of us are going to keep assuming they mean a silly game, because that's just more interesting to talk about.
Hey. Manswords is serious business. Ask any surviving ogre victims!*
*That's a joke. There's no such thing. :(
I think I'd wind up having to take the size of any weapon the weaponized person is holding onto into consideration before the barbarian could wield him.
No, not really. If he's dead/unconscious when he's used as a weapon, he's not holding onto his own weapon. If you're picking up an unwilling person and using them as a weapon, then you'd have to make a grapple check and you'd probably just be better off just punching a guy. If it's a willing person, well, you're getting into some Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga stuff and I'm just not qualified to stat that up.
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Ultimately, it's best to be a sea ogre when doing this, and beat somebody to death with a smallish (not more than 10 feet long) zombie mako.
OR, you can gut the zombie mako, fist the gash, and use it as a "bitey zombie shield." It can't bite you too often cos your arm is in it's guts, so you have control.
And remember to yodel about "ORCUS!!!" a lot.
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If it's a willing person, well, you're getting into some Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga stuff and I'm just not qualified to stat that up.
Ultimately, it's best to be a sea ogre when doing this, and beat somebody to death with a smallish (not more than 10 feet long) zombie mako.
OR, you can gut the zombie mako, fist the gash, and use it as a "bitey zombie shield." It can't bite you too often cos your arm is in it's guts, so you have control.
And remember to yodel about "ORCUS!!!" a lot.
This is why I love RPG discussions and these forums.
All kidding aside, let's consider the actual game rules, working with what we have (since we clearly do NOT have this specific rule covered).
For a medium user:
A shortsword is 2 pounds and is tiny, 1H, light.
A longsword is 4 pounds and is small, 1H, normal.
A greatsword is 8 pounds and is medium, 2H, normal.
I see a pattern.
Let's extend that:
At 16 pounds, we have large 2H.
At 32 pounds, we have huge 2H.
At 64 pounds, we have gargantuan 2H.
At 128 pounds, we have colossal 2H.
At 256 pounds, we are off the chart.
That means that a weapon weighing over 128 pounds (human or otherwise) is the right weight for a colossal creature to use it with two hands. For a medium sized character to wield such a weapon, he would take a cumulative -2 penalty for each size difference for a total of -8 to hit. And unless he is proficient, that's another -4 penalty for non-proficient.
So our barbarian is -12 on his attack rolls, or only -10 if the guy he is using as a weapon is about the size of a healthy young teenage human (or maybe a scrawny human wizard).
As for damage, this is clearly an improvised weapon. The RAW says to look for a similar weapon on the table. Unless our human-weapon is clad in platemail, then he's relatively soft and floppy compared to, say, a sword or club. This means he sounds like a sap. No pun intended...
A small light sap does 1d6. Increasing 6 categories we get colossal and it would be 6d8 damage: 1d6 - 1d8 - 2d6 - 3d6 - 3d8 - 6d6 - 6d8 (I had to take a few liberties with the weapon size here, but this seems fair enough).
Now, that is assuming the weaponized human is limp and unresponsive, like a sap.
To recap: Our barbarian is wielding a healthy human at -12 to his attack rolls doing 6d8 damage + 1.5x STR modifier if he manages to hit anything.
To be fair, the same damage should be done to the weapon, too.
Now, if the weaponized human is awake and unwilling, then on his own round he will try to break the grapple and get free. And during the barbarian's round, the victim will obviously try not to be bashed around like a weapon. I think the easiest way to represent "opposed" rolls here would be to subtract the weapon-guy's CMB from the barbarian's attack rolls. The more the hapless weapon guy twists and squims and scrunches and ducks and even braces for impact using his arms or legs to cushion the blows, the less effective he is as a weapon.
And now that all of that has been said, there are a couple flaws:
The first flaw is that, at least if the guy is awake, our barbarian must use a standard action each round to maintain his grapple, so he won't be able to make any attacks with his "mansword". So really, this only works when our victim is unconscious.
And the second flaw is that anything larger than about 16 pounds is too big to be used as a weapon, per the RAW:
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
Unfortunately, as we sized our "weapon" up from 8 pounds, we quickly reached an effort that is bigger than "two-handed". In fact, we reached that at only 16 pounds. Meaning that any weapon bigger than 16 pounds cannot be used by a medium character. Per the RAW.
But hey, not to be a party-pooper, so since we're houseruling this anyway, let's just rule that little old thing right out, shall we?
Off we go, manswords it is!
Well, weapon size is as much about size as weight, but that still leaves anything of a sensible size out of wielding people as actual weapons. Still, all shall be slain in the name of fun.
My God. Bravo, DM_Blake. Bravo.
This is getting printed and tucked into the Core.
LOL, always glad to help...
;)
What happens when you coup de grace a helpless target with a helpless person?
What happens when you coup de grace a helpless target with a helpless person?
Blood. So much blood.
(Seriously, you know those moves in Pokemon that do a fraction of the damage from the attack on the one using the attack? Same basic principle. Both get damaged, but the guy getting coup de graced gets hurt more.)
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Years and years ago (ca. 1982), my character used a kobold as a weapon. The DM ruled that the kobold did 1d4 damage.
A barbarian PC wants to grab someone and beat someone to death or unconciousness with him.
The PC's target is a Medium human.
The PC's weapon is a Medium human.
How would you run this?
How would this change if the PC's weapon was a Small halfling or gnome instead?
Somewhat related to the old question of beating an alligator to death with another alligator.
Years and years ago (ca. 1982), my character used a kobold as a weapon. The DM ruled that the kobold did 1d4 damage.
A barbarian PC wants to grab someone and beat someone to death or unconciousness with him.
The PC's target is a Medium human.
The PC's weapon is a Medium human.
How would you run this?
How would this change if the PC's weapon was a Small halfling or gnome instead?
Somewhat related to the old question of beating an alligator to death with another alligator.
You could also suggest that the Barbarian rips his victims arms off and beats him to death with the wet ends. This I think maybe easier than using whole human.
I've run into the stereotypical "Sledgehammer Manuever" in a variety of game systems. I think HERO system covered it in the most detail. In PF i'd give it an improvised weapon penalty on the attack roll, require the person swung to already be grappled,a successful CMB hit on the wielded person before the actual attack (basically a variant on "instead of pinning you, i swing you around into your buddy", and give them a damage of unarmed strike (2 handed damage bonus) where the wielded person would take half damage.
This reminds me of the time I used a dead body to kill a monster. I was playing a Half-orc Barbarian and I had just killed a NPC rogue and cleaved into an Ogre Mage. The fight was on a rooftop. The Ogre Mage then went, made his concentration check, casted fly and flew between two buildings. I missed the Attack of Opportunity and the DM thought it would be funny to inform me that the Ogre Mage had one hit point left. When my turn came up again I really didn't have many options because I didn't take any ranged weapons. So, I thought about what I had available to me, I had my greataxe, which I wasn't going to throw, and I had a dead rogue. That gave me an idea. I informed the DM that I was going to throw the dead rogue at the Ogre Mage. His immediate response, besides a blank stare, was "Are you proficient in dead rogue?" Of course I wasn't, so he said it would be a minus 4 to hit. I rolled a 20 and hit the Ogre Mage with the rogue. The best part of this was that the DM was trying to figure out what the damage of a dead rogue would be. He determined it would be non-lethal damage and since the Ogre Mage only had one hit point left he fell unconscious and then fell to his death.
The good news was after this encounter I started carrying a hand axe with returning on it that I would use for just such an occasion.
Pssst, Lincoln... the Great Sword (and many other two-handed weapons) is considered an object of the same size as a Medium Sized corpse.
Weellllll....
Yes and no. Sure, a greatsword is "considered" to be medium sized. But, ultimately, it's only about 8 pounds. There are real-world human infants BORN weighing more than that. And a full-grown medium creature, like, say a human, almost certainly weighs over a hundred pounds and can definitely weigh upwards of 300 pounds and still be defined as "medium" in this game.
So, yes, technically a greatsword is "considered" an object in the same size category as a human, but really, even in this game, there is a huge difference between an 8 pound sword and a 180 pound human (or corpse).