Celestial Armor vs. Armor Proficiency

[Simkiria]

Hi there,

last gaming session, somewhere deep in the Savage Tide AP, our group found some treasure including a Celestial Armor.

Celestial Armor
Aura faint transmutation [good]; CL 5th
Slot armor; Price 22,400 gp; Weight 20 lbs.
Description
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that
it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its
presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor
check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%.
It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on
command (as the spell) once per day.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fly, creator must be
good; Cost 11,350 gp

I would like my character (Wizard/Rogue/Unseen Seer/Abjurant Champion) to wear this armor. There ist still a 15% spell failure, but I clould live with that.

But there is this small niggling piece of rules that makes me uneasy. :-)(PFRG 154/155):

Mithral: Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal
that is lighter than steel but just as hard. When worked
like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which
to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items
as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter
than normal for purposes of movement and other
limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and
medium armors are treated as light, but light armors
are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to
proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing
mithral full plate must be prof icient in wearing heavy
armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty to all
his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.

Yeah, I know the Celestial Armor is not made out of mithral, but still it seems very close. If this passage applies I can't really use the armor, my character does not have medium armor proficiency and a -2 to attacks is not really helpful.

Looking at the specific magic armors on page 465 I I found:

Elven Chain
Aura no aura (nonmagical); CL —
Slot armor; Price 5,150 gp; Weight 20 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links.
This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when
determining proficiency. The armor has an arcane spell failure
chance of 20%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +4, and an armor
check penalty of –2.

And in contrast another mithral armor that directly refers to the mithral rules:

Mithral Full Plate of Speed
Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th
Slot armor; Price 26,500 gp; Weight 25 lbs.
Description
As a free action, the wearer of this fine set of +1 mithral full plate
can activate it, enabling him to act as though affected by a haste
spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the haste effect
need not be consecutive rounds.
The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 25%, a maximum
Dexterity bonus of +3, and an armor check penalty of –3. It is
considered medium armor, except that you must be proficient in
heavy armor to avoid taking nonproficiency penalty.

So thats clear. I have no problem with specific rules overruling the more general rules, so that certain specific sets of armor have slightly different rules.

But the wording in the Celetial Armor passage is ambigious:

It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on
command (as the spell) once per day.

It could be read both ways. My interpretation, perhaps a bit subjective, goes like this:

Comparing Elven Chain and Celestial Armor (both being chainmails) ine can see that they both weigh the same (20 pounds), but the Celestial Armor has a lower spell failure chance (15% vs. 20%) and a higher max. Dexterity Bonus (+8 vs. +4). It seems to be even more "comfortable" than the Mithral Armor. So I hope that the armor proficiency ruling of the Elven Chain (light proficiency being enough) also applies to Celestial Armor.

But as I said, I am not really impartial here. I would really like to read your comments.

Thanks a lot
Jan

[Cilveran]

Hey!
That armor is awesome! =)
It specifically reads "This bright silver or gold"... Nowhere does it say mithral in the text, and even if it did I would then rule it be treated as the mithral elven chainmail.
It also said "It is considered light armor" which is strait forward enough in my mind :)

Wear it with good conscience!
(I do see how the rules are disambiguous here, but seeing how it's called "celestial", and is of way better basic quality than the elven chain, not to mention magic...)

[seekerofshadowlight]

The official ruling is it's light armor. You do not need the medium armor proficiency with it. The armor is not Mithral and so rules for Mithral do not count. It is a magical armor made of gold and silver and is not Mithral.

[Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus]

The offical ruling is that Celestrial is magical armor which does not follow the rules of the non-magical armor material.

[Cartigan]

If we want to get technical, Savage Tide is 3.5, not PFRPG and all Mithral is considered light armor for purposes of proficiency. Especially those ones listed in the DMG as special Mithral armors.

[Cartigan]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

The official ruling is it's light armor. You do not need the medium armor proficiency with it. The armor is not Mithral and so rules for Mithral do not count. It is a magical armor made of gold and silver and is not Mithral.

Your explanation just confuses the already confusing issue.

Elven Chainmail

Quote:

This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 20%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +4, and an armor check penalty of –2.

[MisterSlanky]

Cartigan wrote:

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

The official ruling is it's light armor. You do not need the medium armor proficiency with it. The armor is not Mithral and so rules for Mithral do not count. It is a magical armor made of gold and silver and is not Mithral.

Your explanation just confuses the already confusing issue.

Elven Chainmail

Quote:

This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 20%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +4, and an armor check penalty of –2.

Don't forget. Elven chain is the ONE exception to the mithril rule. Normally mithril armor still counts as medium or heavy in regards to proficiency (but not type when figuring out if it can be worn in conjunction with special abilities). So a rogue wearing a mithril breastplate would not be proficient and would take all the penalties, but could use the mithril breastplate with evasion (which requires light armor). In order to use it proficiently, the rogue would need to take Armor Proficiency.

Elven Chain is the only mithril armor that specifically states that it is worn as light armor even though it's medium. So that same rogue could wear it because he is proficient in light armor.

In fact I would argue that Mithril Chainmail is not Elven Chainmail and would still require the medium armor proficiency (why you wouldn't just buy Elven Chain is beyond me though).

Edit: See my next post for what James Jacobs has to say about Celestial Armor.

[MisterSlanky]

A little Search-Fu and here are your answers...

Celestial Armor is not made of mithril but rocks and bard or rogue armor

Celestial Armor requires Light Armor Proficiency to use

[LazarX]

MisterSlanky wrote:

In fact I would argue that Mithril Chainmail is not Elven Chainmail and would still require the medium armor proficiency (why you wouldn't just buy Elven Chain is beyond me though).

Because it's not just off the shelf chainmail made out of mithril. It's a uniquely elven design of armor that's simply not sold to non-elves in normal circumstances. In fact in my home campaigns if elves see a non-elf wearing such armor, they're going to ask some serious questions as to how she got it. And they'll follow up with some serious response if they don't like the answers they get.

[Dragonborn3]

I've always wondered if you could have mithral Celestial Armor...

[Simkiria]

MisterSlanky wrote:

A little Search-Fu and here are your answers...

Celestial Armor is not made of mithril but rocks and bard or rogue armor

Celestial Armor requires Light Armor Proficiency to use

Thanks for the Search-Fu, I did not find that. Now that I have it straight from the horse's mouth (or dinosaur's) in this case I just have to convince the rest of the group to let me wear it.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Elven chainmail is not the same thing as mithral chainmail, not the elven part in there. It is made of mithral but is not just mithral. It's a specific type of magic armor, just as Celestial Armor is a specific type that uses silver and gold, but not any old chainmail made of silver and gold links will act the way it does.

I am not seeing any confusion here

[LazarX]

Dragonborn3 wrote:

I've always wondered if you could have mithral Celestial Armor...

Celestial Armor isn't an armor type, it's a specific armor. If you want to create another specific armor you can, I don't see what putting mithral in the mix would do for it though. It can't get any lighter after all.

[Cartigan]

MisterSlanky wrote:

Don't forget. Elven chain is the ONE exception to the mithril rule. Normally mithril armor still counts as medium or heavy in regards to proficiency (but not type when figuring out if it can be worn in conjunction with special abilities). So a rogue wearing a mithril breastplate would not be proficient and would take all the penalties, but could use the mithril breastplate with evasion (which requires light armor). In order to use it proficiently, the rogue would need to take Armor Proficiency.

Solely by lazy adaptation fiat.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Elven chainmail is not the same thing as mithral chainmail, not the elven part in there. It is made of mithral but is not just mithral. It's a specific type of magic armor, just as Celestial Armor is a specific type that uses silver and gold, but not any old chainmail made of silver and gold links will act the way it does.

I am not seeing any confusion here

Not only is it the exact same thing as mithral chainmail, it specifically says it is made of Mithral.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Cartigan wrote:

Not only is it the exact same thing as mithral chainmail, it specifically says it is made of Mithral.

A +1 flaming longsword is masterwork steel? your point?

They are not the same thing. Elevn chain is higher, your paying for it being light armor. It simply is not the same as plain Mithral chainmail. it's a specific type of Mithral chain yes, but not just plain mithral chain. No more then a brestplate of command is just a brestplate

Still no confusion. They are not the same items.

[MisterSlanky]

Cartigan wrote:

Not only is it the exact same thing as mithral chainmail, it specifically says it is made of Mithral.

[LINK] But it's not. All right there in that thread I liked to before from right around two months ago.

But who's to take James Jacob's opinion on it?

[Cartigan]

MisterSlanky wrote:

But who's to take James Jacob's opinion on it?

If you expect me to, you should check my post history as best you can.