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I will soon be jumping into a high level monster game as a shadow demon, and I had some questions about ghost touch weapons and incorporeality.
Ghost Touch: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.
So if I am playing an incorporeal character, I can wield a ghost touch longsword. Got it. What do I add to damage though? I have no Strength score.
Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source. Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature's Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
An incorporeal creature's attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn't wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.
So my ghost touch longsword, which is treated as corporeal or incorporeal, makes melee touch attacks since I too am incorporeal and all my "attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields..." That sounds a lot better than a brilliant energy weapon (provided I have the incorporeal trait). Is that right?
T/F? Y?
"a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal..."
So it is a corporeal weapon, that you are able to wield, even though you are incorporeal. I think it is a real, metal sword. Anything beyond that is stretching the rules as far as I know.
Incorporeal is a tricky category, so I could be wrong.
I could be wrong, but I don't think that it makes melee touch attacks. Sure the attacks ignore natural armor, armor and shields just like a touch attack would However there is also the ghost touch enchantment for armor which makes it count against incorporeal attacks, but not against touch attacks.
Regarding what bonus you have to damage with your sword, a creature with a -- stat is treated as having a 10 in that stat when it is necessary to use it, that is no bonus or penalty.
Yup; a ghost touch weapon wielded by an incorporeal creature functions as if wielded by someone with a Strength of 10.
Alright, so it gets a +0 bonus to damage, plus magic bonuses, weapon specialization, etc. Is it clarified in the text anywhere that a creature with a non-ability has a +0 modifier?
Also, does said sword ignore natural armor, armor, and shield bonuses that are not also Force effects when wielded by an incorporeal creature? After all, the incorporeal trait (which says your attacks ignore those things) does not differentiate between different kind of attacks (manufactured ghost touch weapons or natural attacks, for example).
A new question as well: Can an incorporeal creature wielding a ghost touch weapon and wearing ghost touch armor still fly through solid objects like before? Or are the sword and armor still considered solid (as mentioned by an above poster)?
I was under the impression that a ghost touch item is either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is considered most beneficial. That is the reason why it can be wielded by a corporeal creature to harm an incorporeal creature, or be wielded by an incorporeal creature to harm a corporeal creature.
The thing that gets me, is there are plenty of incorporeal touch attacks out there that deal physical damage (such as the shadow demon's bite and claws). That makes me think that, with the incorporeal ability text I quoted above, the sword may function in a similar fashion (that is, make incorporeal touch attacks because it is treated as incorporeal, but deal real physical damage just like a shadow demons bite does).
Yup; a ghost touch weapon wielded by an incorporeal creature functions as if wielded by someone with a Strength of 10.But does it ignore natural armor, armor, and shield bonuses that are not also Force effects? After all, the incorporeal trait (which says your attacks ignore those things) does not differentiate between different kind of attacks (manufactured ghost touch weapons or natural attacks, for example).
Nope. All it does is allow you to affect incorporeal creatures, and allow them to use it. That is all it was intended to do. The weapon itself is not incorporeal.
Edit: What would be the point of brilliant energy if you could use the ghost touch weapon which is a lot cheaper, and would affect more things?
Creative Director
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Yup; a ghost touch weapon wielded by an incorporeal creature functions as if wielded by someone with a Strength of 10.But does it ignore natural armor, armor, and shield bonuses that are not also Force effects? After all, the incorporeal trait (which says your attacks ignore those things) does not differentiate between different kind of attacks (manufactured ghost touch weapons or natural attacks, for example).
Nope. A ghost touch weapon only allows folks to hit incorporeal creatures, or allows an incorporeal creature to wield it. Being incorporeal doesn't grant a ghost touch sword any additional powers at all.
All a ghost touch weapon lets an incorporeal creature do is actually wield the weapon. If such a creature does, the ghost touch weapon behaves in the exact same way as if it were wielded by a normal, corporeal being.
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Creative Director
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An incorporeal creature that wears ghost touch armor or wields a ghost touch sword can't carry those items through solid objects. They remain solid, and in order to move into a solid object, an incorporeal creature must either drop his ghost touch weapon or remove his ghost touch armor.
The reason these items can affect incorporeal creatures or, in turn, BE affected by them isn't because the items themselves are incorporeal—they're just magically able to interact with incorporeal targets.
Yup; a ghost touch weapon wielded by an incorporeal creature functions as if wielded by someone with a Strength of 10.But does it ignore natural armor, armor, and shield bonuses that are not also Force effects? After all, the incorporeal trait (which says your attacks ignore those things) does not differentiate between different kind of attacks (manufactured ghost touch weapons or natural attacks, for example).Nope. All it does is allow you to affect incorporeal creatures, and allow them to use it. That is all it was intended to do. The weapon itself is not incorporeal.
Edit: What would be the point of brilliant energy if you could use the ghost touch weapon which is a lot cheaper, and would affect more things?
I know the ghost touch weapon by itself does not allow for it. As you say, what would be the point of brilliant energy weapons if that was the case?
I'm talking about the interaction between ghost touch weapons and the incorporeal creature property.
The incorporeal creature property specifically says that the attacks made by incorporeal creatures are incorporeal touch attacks. Period. It makes no other provisions. It does not differentiate between different attacks (such as from a manufactured weapon or from a natural attack). All attacks made by an incorporeal creature are incorporeal touch attacks. Normally this is a non-issue since incorporeal creatures can't wield manufactured weapons anyways. However, they CAN wield manufactured weapons that have the ghost touch property.
That leads me to conclude that an incorporeal creature wielding a ghost touch weapon can make incorporeal touch attacks with said weapon just as easily as it can make incorporeal touch attacks with its bite attack.
I'm asking for clarification, for somebody to prove me right or wrong on the matter.
EDIT: Ninja'd by the game designer. Thanks James! That seems to clear up the issue.
Yup; a ghost touch weapon wielded by an incorporeal creature functions as if wielded by someone with a Strength of 10.But does it ignore natural armor, armor, and shield bonuses that are not also Force effects? After all, the incorporeal trait (which says your attacks ignore those things) does not differentiate between different kind of attacks (manufactured ghost touch weapons or natural attacks, for example).Nope. All it does is allow you to affect incorporeal creatures, and allow them to use it. That is all it was intended to do. The weapon itself is not incorporeal.
Edit: What would be the point of brilliant energy if you could use the ghost touch weapon which is a lot cheaper, and would affect more things?
I know the ghost touch weapon by itself does not allow for it. As you say, what would be the point of brilliant energy weapons if that was the case?
I'm talking about the interaction between ghost touch weapons and the incorporeal creature property.
The incorporeal creature property specifically says that the attacks made by incorporeal creatures are incorporeal touch attacks. Period. It makes no other provisions. It does not differentiate between different attacks (such as from a manufactured weapon or from a natural attack). All attacks made by an incorporeal creature are incorporeal touch attacks. Normally this is a non-issue since incorporeal creatures can't wield manufactured weapons anyways. However, they CAN wield manufactured weapons that have the ghost touch property.
That leads me to conclude that an incorporeal creature wielding a ghost touch weapon can make incorporeal touch attacks with said weapon just as easily as it can make incorporeal touch attacks with its bite attack.
I'm asking for clarification, for somebody to prove me right or wrong on the matter.
If the creature attacks with the weapon it is a normal attack roll. The striking weapon is what determines if its a touch attack or not, and since the weapon is never incorporeal then it is not a touch attack. The incorporeal creature can make touch attacks with its natural attacks because it is incorporeal.
edit: changed the word "it" to "is"
If the creature attacks with the weapon it is a normal attack roll. The striking weapon...
As I said before, I thought a ghost touch weapon actually did turn incorporeal (or partially incorporeal) based on whatever was most beneficial to the wielder at the time.
Guess that's not the case after all.
Is wielding the sword part of the concept you have in mind (i.e. like a nazgul)?
If not, then I'd just focus on the natural attacks of the shadow demon. One, they remain incorporeal touch attacks, which with the shadow demons nice BAB and good Dex means he will hit most often. Two, the natural attacks get the extra cold damage, the sword would not (unless it was enchanted to be a frost sword). Three, you get more attacks at a higher attack bonus doing his natural attacks then you would when weilding a manufactured weapon.
Take a standard shadow demon and give him a +1 ghost touch longsword. He can use the longsword for the following attack routine: +8/+3 +1 ghost touch longsword (1d8+1/19-20) and +6 incorporeal touch attack bite (1d8 + 1d6 cold). Or he can use his natural attacks to do the following rotuine: +11/+11 incorporeal touch attack claws (1d6 + 1d6 cold) and +11 incorporeal touch attack bite (1d8 + 1d6 cold). And lets say hes got a +1 rapier and weapon finesse: +12/+7 +1 ghost touch rapier (1d6+1/18-20) and +6 incorporeal touch attack bite (1d8 + 1d6 cold). He's still doing more damage with a higher attack rating against a lower AC with his natural attacks.
If using the sword is part of his concept, then thats absolutely fine. But he'll do much more damage overall with his natural attacks. And with the sword, although he can't move through solid objects with it, he can still greater teleport at will and blend into shadows at will.
If you want to beef him up to make his natural attacks stronger, then consider Improved Natural Attack feat. His claws could become 1d8 + 1d6 cold, and with his bite it could go to 2d6 +1d6 cold. Levels in rogue to get sneak attack would be pretty nasty as well, as he can go invisible as a move action and still make an attack with a standard action.
If using a sword, then sneak attack would help with that too. Or levels in fighter for weapon spec and weapon training to up the damage. A finesseable sword would be best though to make use of the shadow demons better dex modifier.
Actually I kind of like the idea of a rogue shadow demon using say a ghost touch elven curved blade (or even a greatsword) and vital strike plus sneak attack, particularly with the shadow blend ability. He'd take a single attack each round, but it would be a nasty one, as it would be coming from an invisible attacker so its easier to hit, and the damage could get pretty high for that one attack.
It's a 16th-level game, which means said shadow demon will have higher than normal base ability scores (25-pt buy), different skills and feats, and 9 class levels to work with.
The iterative attacks from a weapon in addition to a secondary claw and bite attack will make it all more than worth it, damage wise.
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If the creature attacks with the weapon it is a normal attack roll. The striking weapon...As I said before, I thought a ghost touch weapon actually did turn incorporeal (or partially incorporeal) based on whatever was most beneficial to the wielder at the time.
Guess that's not the case after all.
Ok, it seems as if James clarified the status of things with Ghost Touch... now I want to see if I can throw a twist in things... I have an idea for a BBEG now, thanks to Ravingdork, and I want to make an item that does exactly what he had in mind at the beginning, it can be actually incorporeal or corporeal as needed. It can pass through walls and such just like he was describing...
Is there already an existing magical effect out there to do that? And if not, how would you design one? What spells would you use in item creation to get this effect? I don't mind it being a unique weapon per se, but would like to do it legally without GM fiat.
And ummm the sword is intelligent and IS the BBEG...
If the creature attacks with the weapon it is a normal attack roll. The striking weapon...As I said before, I thought a ghost touch weapon actually did turn incorporeal (or partially incorporeal) based on whatever was most beneficial to the wielder at the time.
Guess that's not the case after all.
Ok, it seems as if James clarified the status of things with Ghost Touch... now I want to see if I can throw a twist in things... I have an idea for a BBEG now, thanks to Ravingdork, and I want to make an item that does exactly what he had in mind at the beginning, it can be actually incorporeal or corporeal as needed. It can pass through walls and such just like he was describing...
Is there already an existing magical effect out there to do that? And if not, how would you design one? What spells would you use in item creation to get this effect? I don't mind it being a unique weapon per se, but would like to do it legally without GM fiat.
And ummm the sword is intelligent and IS the BBEG...
Minor artifact. 'Nuf said. All you need to do is slap CL 20th on it, write out a plot method of destroying it, and assign the numbers and intelligent item abilities as you see fit.
]Minor artifact. 'Nuf said. All you need to do is slap CL 20th on it, write out a plot method of destroying it, and assign the numbers and intelligent item abilities as you see fit.
Exactly what I was about to say.
It's a 16th-level game, which means said shadow demon will have higher than normal base ability scores (25-pt buy), different skills and feats, and 9 class levels to work with.
The iterative attacks from a weapon in addition to a secondary claw and bite attack will make it all more than worth it, damage wise.
Well in that case hes going to have some troubles doing any significant damage. Without a strength score he can't qualify for power attack, and also no cleave/great cleave. Also, critical hits won't be much help damage-wise since there won't be a lot to multiply.
Fighter 9 (or any full BAB class) would give him a +16 BAB and qualify him for greater vital strike, so that could be something to look at. Just get the biggest sword you can and maybe pick up spring attack (if that works with vital strike). Fighter 9 would also give a second Weapon Training ability, so that plus weapon spec would help with damage some. But since he's not got any Str bonus he will still have some trouble hitting high AC targets, although the shadow blend ability can help with that some.
Rogue 9 could also work, adding sneak attack to the shadow demons natural attacks. 5d6 sneak attack +1d6 cold from a touch attack is nothing to sneeze at. Assassin 9 would also work.
What if incorporeal was the weapon's default state, from its very creation, and it can only interact with the corporeal at all due to the ghost touch property? That is, it was made by an incorporeal smith of incorporeal materials and then enchanted? Sure, that would be really quite tricky for PCs to pull off, but for an NPC that can be hand-waved a bit. Then it would be able to go through walls, since it would always remain an incorporeal item.
On a similar subject, the "no strength score" thing doesn't make sense to me. I can see that when normally interacting with the corporeal an incorporeal creature would have *effectively* no strength score, since its normal STR would be irrelevant and unused. But when two incorporeal creatures interact, they would still have some strength score relative to each other. That would get around the problem of meeting feat requirements with a STR pre-req. You wouldn't generally be allowed to actually *use* Power Attack against a corporeal foe, because at the time of attacking you'd have effectively no STR and would no longer qualify, but you could learn it and use it as the pre-req for other feats.
On a similar subject, the "no strength score" thing doesn't make sense to me. I can see that when normally interacting with the corporeal an incorporeal creature would have *effectively* no strength score, since its normal STR would be irrelevant and unused. But when two incorporeal creatures interact, they would still have some strength score relative to each other.
You are confusing incorporeal and ethereal here.
Incorporeal creatures have no physical body but exist on the material plane (or whatever current plane its on). Two incorporeal creatures facing off against each other are still incorporeal to each other, as neither has a physical body, and both are subject to the others incorporeal effects. For example, they would still be unable to grapple each other.
Ethereal creatures exist on the ethereal plane and would interact normally with each other while on the material plane. In 3.5 manifested ghosts in particular were both ethereal and incorporeal--although its no longer clear that they are still ethereal in PF--and the blink spell also conflates the two. But aside from that, most ethereal creatures are not incorporeal, they just have great difficulty in affecting the material plane. An ethereal creature against another ethereal creature would have a strength score, unless the ethereal creature is also an incorporeal creature on the ethereal plane (such as a shadow on the ethereal plane).
Oh also, there are instances of 'incorporeal' weapons. The ghost template describes what happens to a creatures items when it becomes an incorporeal ghost, and it says that its possible for a ghost to have the weapons it had in life. However, unless its a magic weapon it woudl be unable to affect other creatures, and even magic weapons deal half damage; if its ghost touch to begin with though, it can affect corporeal creatures normally even if it is incorporeal. Not sure how a shadow demon would come into possession of such a weapon though. Crafting a weapon to be incorporeal seems rather contradictory, as there would be no phsyical form to craft.
But hey, this is fantasy, so anything is possible.
Ok, it seems as if James clarified the status of things with Ghost Touch... now I want to see if I can throw a twist in things... I have an idea for a BBEG now, thanks to Ravingdork, and I want to make an item that does exactly what he had in mind at the beginning, it can be actually incorporeal or corporeal as needed. It can pass through walls and such just like he was describing...
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Is there already an existing magical effect out there to do that? And if not, how would you design one? What spells would you use in item creation to get this effect? I don't mind it being a unique weapon per se, but would like to do it legally without GM fiat.
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And ummm the sword is intelligent and IS the BBEG...
Wasn't there some sort of template in the later books of 3.5 (I'm thinking MM4 give or take) that was kind of a revenant type and could go incorporeal for a few rounds before dropping back to a physical form? If so you could make an intelligent magical weapon that grants the template (there is a precedent with an item in the Tome of Magic that grants the shadow/dark subtype and I believe there are items that grant celestial and fiendish as well) and just give the base creature an improved CR based on the template and tweaked by whatever other abilities it grants, correct? It would pretty much be all based on existing rules and less "made up/DM fiat" than an artifact. I'd have to get ahold of the books to find out exactly what template it was though (and it might have been ethereal, it's been awhile since I've looked at gaming stuff).
If the creature attacks with the weapon it is a normal attack roll. The striking weapon...As I said before, I thought a ghost touch weapon actually did turn incorporeal (or partially incorporeal) based on whatever was most beneficial to the wielder at the time.
Guess that's not the case after all.
In a way, it does. Only not the way you want it to.
If you are attacking an incorporeal foe, it is incorporeal and can hit the foe normally.
If your foe is corporeal, having an incorporeal weapon would not be much use. The weapon would pass through armor and shields, but it would also pass through their body equally well. To damage a corporeal foe, the weapon needs to be corporeal, at which point armor, shields and natural armor become effective.