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Hi. I hope this makes sense. Be gentle.
Is there a difference between an "Incorporeal Touch Attack" (which is a regular attack made by an incorporeal creature, which bypasses solid objects) and the discharging of a Touch spell delivered by an incorporeal creature?
A Spectre makes an Incorporeal Touch Attack to move through your shield and armor to poke your soft mortal flesh and zap you. If you are protected with Mage Armor, it can help block the attack by not allowing the Spectre to pass through it (Armor bonus to AC applies).
But if a Spectre was able to cast, say, Touch of Fatigue, would the Mage Armor help? The Incorporeal nature of the Spectre would be irrelevant, since the spell doesn't care if you pass through the armor to touch flesh, or just touch the armor itself. Touching a Breastplate someone is wearing is the same as touching an exposed cheek. The Armor bonus to AC would apply as far as incorporeality is concerned, but ignored for purposes of discharging the spell?
The Mage Armor blocks the incorporeal nature of the Spectre, but that just means the Spectre touches the armor and the spell discharges? Or does the Force descriptor act more like a deflection bonus than an armor bonus (instead of bonking into the attack, it makes the attack slide off without making contact)? If the force effect is not an actual solid thing, then wouldn't the AC bonus apply vs fleshy touches as well? If it is a solid thing, then shouldn't the AC bonus not apply regardless of how incorporeal or not the impending finger is?
So, is a spell with Range: Touch converted into an Incorporeal Touch Attack by nature of it being delivered by an incorporeal creature?
Relevant rules:
Monster Rules - Incorporeal: "An incorporeal creature's attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it."
Combat - Touch Attacks: "Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor."
Spells - Mage Armor: "Since mage armor is made of force, incorporeal creatures can't bypass it the way they do normal armor."
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I'd say any spell the spectre casts as a touch spell would have to make contact under normal incorporeal touch attack rules, mage armor and all. What triggers any touch attack spell is the contact. Not making past the touch AC normally means that something hindered ANY effective contact. WHY that is would be fluff: Force effects would block it because it keeps the creature from physically entering the prime material plane to make the physical contact. High dex on top of that, for instance, also means they just weren't touched by it and dodged out of the way.
Wow! Interesting question. This gets into some deep D&D philosophy on the nature of magic and incorporeality.
I think we are indeed talking about two separate types of attack here.
Touch attack from an incorporeal creature:
Ignore armor bonus, regardless of source.
Attack from an incorporeal creature:
Ignore armor bonus from physical sources.
Although, this one could really go either way...
Work out the incorporeal attack first since that is the creature making the attack, then figure for the touch spell.
If something like Mage Armor was involved the incorporeal attack could be blocked by it then you move on to the touch spell which would allow it to bypass the Mage Armor (it's an Armor Bonus).
Regardless, the only obstacle that would prevent a incorporeal attack with a touch spell would be some kind of Cover created by a force effect, such as a Wall of Force.
When it comes to armor, Mage Armor or not, that incorporeal attack with a touch spell is getting through.
From the Ethereal Jaunt spell...
An ethereal creature can't attack material creatures, and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things
Question is, is that becasue it is ethereal or incorporeal? Are they interchangeable?
From the Ethereal Jaunt spell...
An ethereal creature can't attack material creatures, and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal thingsQuestion is, is that becasue it is ethereal or incorporeal? Are they interchangeable?
This is because ethereal creature is ethereal. It is on another Plane of existence coexistent with material one. Incorporeality is completly different quality than etherealness.
Being etheareal means you are on the ethereal plane and react differently to things on the material plane.
Being incorporeal means you have no physical body.
Someone with a physical body can be etheareal as can an incorporeal creature.
I'm not paying for the diamond for this resurrection...
Anyway, lets say we have a naked 10-dex Wizard that casts Mage Armor:
Normal AC: 14
Touch AC: 10
A Ghost Sorcerer appears and uses it's Corrupting Touch ability. He must hit AC 14, since the Mage Armor's armor bonus applies to the Incorporeal Touch Attack.
The Ghost Sorcerer then casts Chill Touch, and attempts to touch the Wizard. What AC must he hit?
A) AC 14, any touch attack delivered by an Incorporeal creature is an Incorporeal Touch Attack, and thus does not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor.
or
B) AC 10, Even when delivered by an Incorporeal creature, Chill Touch simply needs contact to deliver the charge, touching the Mage Armor is the same as touching real armor is the same as touching bare skin.
Natural attacks of a ghost can pass throw armor, but not force effects
Magic spells, can pass throw armor, and force effects unless the force effect say otherwise in there spell description.
Turns out the answer is in the shield spell:
"Shield creates an invisible shield of force that hovers in front of you. It negates magic missile attacks directed at you. The disk also provides a +4 shield bonus to AC. This bonus applies against incorporeal touch attacks, since it is a force effect. The shield has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance."
Sounds like there is no difference between an incorporeal touch attack (such as corrupting touch) and an incorporeal creature delivering a touch spell (such as shocking grasp) as far as Mage Armor and shield are concerned.
FAQ'd anyway.
As I read it, the shield spell text doesn't help at all, as it's once again pointing out that force effects work against incorporeal touch attacks--without saying anything about touch spells.
FAQ is a good idea.
Okay, reviewing the PRD text, I think I've parsed it out:
An incorporeal creature's attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it.
Note that it says that force effects "work normally against" an incorporeal creature's "attacks". Thus, for any attack the incorporeal creature uses, mage armor works normally against it.
The key word is "normally". It doesn't mean that mage armor works against all attacks by an incorporeal creature. It means that it works the same way it normally works against all attacks by an incorporeal creature.
Since mage armor normally does not protect against touch spells, it does not in this instance either. It works against the "touch" attack because the "touch" attack is, in fact, a natural weapon, similar to unarmed strike or claws (this is a little less clear, but I'm basing it on how the thing is listed in the bestiary). Mage armor normally works against such attacks. The naked wizard has AC 10 vs. chill touch and 14 vs. "touch".
At least, that's how I see it.
Edit: clarified.
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The key word is "normally". It doesn't mean that mage armor works against all attacks by an incorporeal creature. It means that it works the same way it normally works against all attacks by an incorporeal creature.
Since mage armor normally does not protect against touch spells, it does not in this instance either. more...
That's how I thought it worked also, however, the shield spell has that line, "This bonus applies against incorporeal touch attacks, since it is a force effect. "
I think ANY force affect applies against any touch attack from an incorporeal source, even if it gives a shield, armor, or natural bonus.
That line in the shield spell wouldn't make sense with any other interpretation I can come up with.
I'd say the touch on the naked wizard would be at ac14, if its a ghost delivering a touch attack spell.
Lets take this One. Step. FURTHER!
If I am a Shadow, and I make a touch attack to deliver a touch spell, such as shocking grasp. Do I do xd6 Electric + 1d6 Strength damage, due to mechanics of shadows touching you, and bad things happening?
Only if the Shadow delivers a held charge with it normal melee attack.
That line in the shield spell wouldn't make sense with any other interpretation I can come up with.
It makes perfect sense if you consider "Incorporeal Touch Attack" as a special kind of attack rather than just a touch attack made by incorporeal creatures.
Consider the special case of two battling ghosts, each wearing Ghost Touch Armour and wielding Ghost Touch weapons. The ghosts should more or less be able to battle as if they were corporeal creatures. Their weapons and armour functioning as they would for corporeal creatures.
Yet since Ghost Touch armour protects against incorporeal touch attacks, if one ghost were to cast Scorching Ray, the other would retain its armour bonus.
How does that even make sense?
The key word is "normally". It doesn't mean that mage armor works against all attacks by an incorporeal creature. It means that it works the same way it normally works against all attacks by an incorporeal creature.
Since mage armor normally does not protect against touch spells, it does not in this instance either. more...
That's how I thought it worked also, however, the shield spell has that line, "This bonus applies against incorporeal touch attacks, since it is a force effect. "
I think ANY force affect applies against any touch attack from an incorporeal source, even if it gives a shield, armor, or natural bonus.
That line in the shield spell wouldn't make sense with any other interpretation I can come up with.
Problem is, it doesn't make sense with that interpretation either. I found the least amount of contradiction occurred when I interpreted "incorporeal touch attack" as "the natural touch attack of an incorporeal creature" instead of "the touch spell of an incorporeal creature". That would imply that the AC is 14 versus the touch attack and 10 versus the touch spell.
It makes perfect sense if you consider "Incorporeal Touch Attack" as a special kind of attack rather than just a touch attack made by incorporeal creatures.
Exactly. Well, maybe not perfect sense, but the most sense I can make of it.
Being incorporeal doesn't make the touch attack of a spell any harder. Use touch AC for any Spell an incorporeal caster is delivering as a touch attack.
The rules clearly state that when making an attack with a touch spell, you make a touch attack.
Incorporeal touch attacks are something else entirely, and they don't intermingle.
A ghost magus trying to hit someone with shocking grasp would make a melee touch attack, NOT an incorporeal touch attack.
You guys are over thinking it. There is nothing in the rules to even imply that the ghost magus would make an incorporeal touch attack in this situation. That only happens when using his natural weapons.
It's easy to spot the confusion if you realize that it may not be clear to everyone that "incorporeal touch attack" is a different mechanic from "touch attack" rather than a modifier on it. "Overthinking" it helped me figure it out. : P
OK, I think it is slowly seeping through my thick head...
Despite the name, incorporeal touch attacks are not touch attacks. They may seem like touch attacks because of the name and the attributes of incorporeal creatures, but if armor is made of force, it still applies.
But if an incorporeal creature is making a touch attack with a spell, I don't think mage armor or shield apply, since they are armor and shield bonii respectively, neither of which adds to touch AC.
Further proof that it isn't really a touch attack can be found in the way the attacks are listed in the Beastiery:
Ghost:
Melee corrupting touch +6 (7d6, Fort. DC 18 half)
Roper:
Ranged 6 strands +10 touch (1d6 Strength)
Note that the roper has "touch" listed after the attack modifier while the ghost lists it before the number.
Yep, you got it. Incorporeal touch is a different attack type - when force effects are not involved they resolve exactly the same as a touch attack, however, force-effects which affect armor class count against incorporeal touch, even if those force-effects do not affect the target's touch ac. Another one of those unfortunate violations of standardized naming conventions.