Are the Dragon Disciple's ability boosts and natural armor increases kept when going into Wild Shape?
For instance, with 4 levels in DD, the character gets +4 Str and +2 AC.
I would think that they do but I may be partial, so I need your advice on whether this is valid.
Are the Dragon Disciple's ability boosts and natural armor increases kept when going into Wild Shape?
For instance, with 4 levels in DD, the character gets +4 Str and +2 AC.
I would think that they do but I may be partial, so I need your advice on whether this is valid.
They would not stack. At best you would get the better of the two.
You lose extraordinary abilities (marked with Ex. in their description) according to the rules for polymorph, which are the foundation for beast shape, which are the foundation for wildshape. If I read this correctly, both your stat boost and your AC boost are Ex. and would be lost. Probably a good thing, otherwise your druid/disciple would be getting stats and AC boosted until he looked like a 3.5 druid real quick.
You lose extraordinary abilities (marked with Ex. in their description) according to the rules for polymorph, which are the foundation for beast shape, which are the foundation for wildshape. If I read this correctly, both your stat boost and your AC boost are Ex. and would be lost. Probably a good thing, otherwise your druid/disciple would be getting stats and AC boosted until he looked like a 3.5 druid real quick.
You only lose extraordinary abilities that are tied to your form. The strength boost you get from DD is a class ability. It has nothing to do with your form. A human dragon disciple and an ogre dragon disciple would get the same strength boost. I would say the same with regards to the Natural armor boost. These are class abilities and not form dependant.
You lose extraordinary abilities (marked with Ex. in their description) according to the rules for polymorph, which are the foundation for beast shape, which are the foundation for wildshape. If I read this correctly, both your stat boost and your AC boost are Ex. and would be lost. Probably a good thing, otherwise your druid/disciple would be getting stats and AC boosted until he looked like a 3.5 druid real quick.You only lose extraordinary abilities that are tied to your form. The strength boost you get from DD is a class ability. It has nothing to do with your form. A human dragon disciple and an ogre dragon disciple would get the same strength boost. I would say the same with regards to the Natural armor boost. These are class abilities and not form dependant.
Good catch. Now I need to do the experiment of letting all this stack and see how nasty it gets.
Good catch. Now I need to do the experiment of letting all this stack and see how nasty it gets.You lose extraordinary abilities (marked with Ex. in their description) according to the rules for polymorph, which are the foundation for beast shape, which are the foundation for wildshape. If I read this correctly, both your stat boost and your AC boost are Ex. and would be lost. Probably a good thing, otherwise your druid/disciple would be getting stats and AC boosted until he looked like a 3.5 druid real quick.You only lose extraordinary abilities that are tied to your form. The strength boost you get from DD is a class ability. It has nothing to do with your form. A human dragon disciple and an ogre dragon disciple would get the same strength boost. I would say the same with regards to the Natural armor boost. These are class abilities and not form dependant.
It may be nasty but that interpretation would make the DD pretty impotent. Form of the dragon is also part of the polymorph subschool. DD's shouldnt give up 2 of their main class features to use another.
Are the Dragon Disciple's ability boosts and natural armor increases kept when going into Wild Shape?
For instance, with 4 levels in DD, the character gets +4 Str and +2 AC.
Ability boosts -- I think so, since Wild Shape just adds a bonus to your existing scores.
Natural armor -- I think not, since Wild Shape (by my reading) replaces your existing natural armor bonus with a new one.
this discussion is kinda mute
druid 4 / sorc 1 /DD 4 is well imho terrible (no offense)
right or wrong allowing the STR and AC to stack is tiny buff for what its costs you. so let it stack your so far behind everyone else you'll need all the help you can get.
simply put
druid 4 / sorc 1 /DD 4
you can become a medium wolf +6STR +2AC
you cast 2nd level druid spells and 1st level Sorc Spell
your domain or animal companion is at -5 levels
Or
Druid 9
you can become medium elementals , gain perfect flight, earthglide
+4 to any phsyical stat
e.g. earth +4STR +5 natural armor
Or a Huge Animal , gain swim burrow pounce rakes etc etc
+6 STR -4DEX +6 Nat armor
you can cast 5TH LEVEL spells
your domain or animal companion is at full level
EDIT
ok at the very least you need to be Druid 12 before taking any other class as druid maxes wildshape here, but even then your costing yourself high level casting for a few meager stat buffs you could get through magic items very easily.
e.g. Greater Herosim spell on a magic item would get you +4 morale bonuses to STR and several other things all of which would stack with wildshape forms
Thanks for all your answers. For the record, this thread was started with the following thought: "what could be an interesting starting build to get into Arcane Hierophant?"
Compared to Druid 3/Sorcerer 4, the Druid 3/Sorc 1/DD4 loses one level but gains some strength and armor.
If you have other ideas about entries into AH, thanks for sharing them.
Natural armor -- I think not, since Wild Shape (by my reading) replaces your existing natural armor bonus with a new one.
By that reading a dragon disciple would also lose his class ac bonus when using form of the dragon, another class feature. Does that make sense to you?
By that reading a dragon disciple would also lose his class ac bonus when using form of the dragon, another class feature. Does that make sense to you?
Natural armor -- I think not, since Wild Shape (by my reading) replaces your existing natural armor bonus with a new one.
Actually, let me rephrase myself. I think the highest natural armor bonus would apply; they wouldn't stack. And yes, that makes sense to me (more sense than "I become a dragon, but even scalier because I'm more draconic", anyways).
Actually, let me rephrase myself. I think the highest natural armor bonus would apply; they wouldn't stack. And yes, that makes sense to me (more sense than "I become a dragon, but even scalier because I'm more draconic", anyways).By that reading a dragon disciple would also lose his class ac bonus when using form of the dragon, another class feature. Does that make sense to you?
Natural armor -- I think not, since Wild Shape (by my reading) replaces your existing natural armor bonus with a new one.
But its ok if that extra scaly comes from a amulate of natural armor? Which by raw definately would stack with form of the dragon.
But its ok if that extra scaly comes from a amulate of natural armor? Which by raw definately would stack with form of the dragon.
Yes, because an amulet of natural armor does not give a natural armor bonus; it gives an enhancement bonus to a natural armor bonus.
Thanks for all your answers. For the record, this thread was started with the following thought: "what could be an interesting starting build to get into Arcane Hierophant?"
Compared to Druid 3/Sorcerer 4, the Druid 3/Sorc 1/DD4 loses one level but gains some strength and armor.
If you have other ideas about entries into AH, thanks for sharing them.
hahah well had you said Arcane Hierophant before .... ;)
question is what kinda of character are you trying to create with Arcane Hierophant ?
hahah well had you said Arcane Hierophant before .... ;)
question is what kinda of character are you trying to create with Arcane Hierophant ?
Uh... is there an underlying joke I'm not aware of?
Arcane Hierophant is the druid-oriented version of Mystic Theurge. Since one is interesting, the other is as well. Even more so thanks to Companion Familiar and Wild Shape.
I wanted to see what could be done to have an efficient and versatile spellcaster with the option of wild shaping to either escape bad situations or provide melee support through a good enough Strength score.
But its ok if that extra scaly comes from a amulate of natural armor? Which by raw definately would stack with form of the dragon.Yes, because an amulet of natural armor does not give a natural armor bonus; it gives an enhancement bonus to a natural armor bonus.
And the Dragon Disciple class ability gives a class bonus to natural armor.
And the Dragon Disciple class ability gives a class bonus to natural armor.But its ok if that extra scaly comes from a amulate of natural armor? Which by raw definately would stack with form of the dragon.Yes, because an amulet of natural armor does not give a natural armor bonus; it gives an enhancement bonus to a natural armor bonus.
While it's slightly vague, it says that it increases your natural armor bonus:
"At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a dragon disciple gains an increase to the character's existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: Dragon Disciple."
Then it has to muddy the whole issue by saying:
"These armor bonuses stack."
An increase of a given statistic is not a bonus. For instance, if I'm a 4th level character and I increase by Strength stat from 16 to 17, I don't say "I have a 16 Str with a +1 unnamed bonus" because my Strength actually changes from 16 to 17.
Similarly, a human bard 5/dragon disciple 1 has his natural armor bonus increase from +0 to +1, not +0 with a +1 unnamed bonus.
Now, you could argue that the phrase "These armor bonuses stack" means that it's some kind of armor bonus, but I think it's just sloppy writing personally.
All the Dragon Disciple natural armor stuff boils down to is: " You grow dragon scales, add these point(s) to your natural armor bonus. If you do not have one before undertaking this prestige class, you do now. Enjoy the occasional witch hunt dragon-boy! "
The minor, inherent bonus to natural armor works fine with the polymorph subschool spells - especially since for the most part the subschools' spells provide inferior bonuses as compared to what the critter normally has. There are a few nasty ones that can be used by critters themselves, however... such as a dragon using Alter Self ... ^_^
By the way, do anyone know of other [prestige] classes increasing the character's abilities (esp. Strength)?
The Chameleon seems to do that, but, reading its abilities, I don't see how it could mesh well with Wild Shape. Are the abilities listed under "Mimic Class Features" the only choices?
Thanks for your input.
And the Dragon Disciple class ability gives a class bonus to natural armor.But its ok if that extra scaly comes from a amulate of natural armor? Which by raw definately would stack with form of the dragon.Yes, because an amulet of natural armor does not give a natural armor bonus; it gives an enhancement bonus to a natural armor bonus.While it's slightly vague, it says that it increases your natural armor bonus:
"At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a dragon disciple gains an increase to the character's existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: Dragon Disciple."
Then it has to muddy the whole issue by saying:
"These armor bonuses stack."
An increase of a given statistic is not a bonus. For instance, if I'm a 4th level character and I increase by Strength stat from 16 to 17, I don't say "I have a 16 Str with a +1 unnamed bonus" because my Strength actually changes from 16 to 17.
Similarly, a human bard 5/dragon disciple 1 has his natural armor bonus increase from +0 to +1, not +0 with a +1 unnamed bonus.
Now, you could argue that the phrase "These armor bonuses stack" means that it's some kind of armor bonus, but I think it's just sloppy writing personally.
Then why exactly wouldn't polymorph spell Natural Armor stack? Those are bonuses and if this is an increase, then it sets your base natural armor bonus to whatever it is which would then be increased by polymorph.
Then why exactly wouldn't polymorph spell Natural Armor stack? Those are bonuses and if this is an increase, then it sets your base natural armor bonus to whatever it is which would then be increased by polymorph.
Polymorph doesn't increase your natural armor bonus. It gives you a natural armor bonus which doesn't stack with any other natural armor bonus.
It's the same situation as with the spell Mage Armor. Mage Armor gives you a +4 armor bonus, so it doesn't stack with any other armor bonus you might have (e.g. a +5 armor bonus from a +1 chain shirt).
Form of the Dragon I gives you a +4 natural armor bonus, so it doesn't stack with any other natural armor bnous you might have (e.g. a +1 natural armor bonus from being a human bard 5/dragon disciple 1).
BUT...note that Barkskin works differently. It doesn't give you a natural armor bonus, it gives you an enhancement bonus to your natural armor bonus.
Seems to me that the dragon disciple feature grants an "un-typed" bonus to the DD's natural armor class. Thusly it would stack with both the natural armor class granted by a polymorph as well as barkskin. This is because it seems to suggest that the bonus from the class feature would stack with a natural armor bonus the DD had bfore taking the class.
Seems to me that the dragon disciple feature grants an "un-typed" bonus to the DD's natural armor class.
Then why does it say it's "an increase to the character's existing natural armor"?
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Seems to me that the dragon disciple feature grants an "un-typed" bonus to the DD's natural armor class.Then why does it say it's "an increase to the character's existing natural armor"?
Because it turns a normal human's +0 Natural Armor bonus into a +1. Your skin is becoming physically tougher.
Think of it this way. You are becoming more like the dragon that is you ancestor, and thus your skin is becoming more like scales, your teeth more like fangs, your muscles becoming stronger, etc.
When you use Form of the Dragon, you are jumping ahead in your "draconic-evolution" and gain all the benefits of the spell plus what you already have. You will never be as strong as your many times Great-Grandma Angordirantia, but you can get closer than others.
Because it turns a normal human's +0 Natural Armor bonus into a +1. Your skin is becoming physically tougher.Seems to me that the dragon disciple feature grants an "un-typed" bonus to the DD's natural armor class.Then why does it say it's "an increase to the character's existing natural armor"?
Right, but that's not what Anburaid was claiming. He was saying it turns a normal human's +0 natural armor bonus into a +0 natural armor bonus with an untyped bonus to the natural armor bonus of +1 (for a total of +1).
Think of it this way. At level 8, a dragon disciple's Int increases by +2 (from 10 to 12, say). Suppose the DD gets Feeblemind cast on him. What will be his new Int -- 1 or 3?
By the way, do anyone know of other [prestige] classes increasing the character's abilities (esp. Strength)?
The Chameleon seems to do that, but, reading its abilities, I don't see how it could mesh well with Wild Shape. Are the abilities listed under "Mimic Class Features" the only choices?
Thanks for your input.
WarHulk (Minituares Handbook) + 2 Strength per level.
but...no BAB