ok I just wanted to find out what requirements are insermountable and which just require a higher spellcraft check.
I have a party member with a magic-item crafting cohort and we're tring to figure out what item are out of reach.
for example does the crafter have to be CL 10 in order to keen my weapon. when other abilities are far more expensive and yet require lower caster levels.
Also an efficient quiver has a CL9 but is only 1,800gold and plenty of items have much lower caster levels but much higher prices.
So does the higher caster level just set the power level of the item and the baseline spellcraft check or is it a unavoidable requirement like item creation feats.
Maybe im just hung up on the the idea that the price has always been the hoop to jump through and now that we have a cohort designed to make hoop jumping easier the hoop has just changed.
Thanks in advance.
Here's the relevant section of the PRD:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html
Broadly speaking, the crafter can't forgo item creation feats. Note I said BROADLY. If you aren't dealing with wands or scrolls, you can more or less forego the rest but at a +5 DC to the final check per prerequisite you fail to meet. The caster level for your efficient quiver isn't listed under the prerequisites; Craft Wondrous Item and secret chest are. If you have those two, you can make the item with a DC 14 check (5 base, +9 caster level).
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To add a bit to that, caster levels are assumed to be at the lowest level possible to create that particular item. So you can't really go lower.
There *is* a discrepancy between item price and caster level. That's simply because, being a mechanical game, it's important to balance equally useful items around the same price, and to not include other items specifically because they'd be too powerful.
For example, an amulet of cure light wounds at will is pretty cheap. But the benefit it provides is massive, so you won't see one in the books, nor in most campaigns since dm's learn to pick up on stuff like that.
Specifically, however, how is your cohort crafting these items?
Is he a spellcaster, or is he using the master artisan feat?
To enchant your weapons, he'll need the craft arms and armor feat at least.
Now, page 551 has specifics on magic weapons.
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two must be met. A weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
On page 549 it has details on making items without the prerequisite abilities.
The crafter must make a spellcraft skill check to create the item. The DC is 5 + the caster level for the item. Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.
Then stuff about spell-trigger and completion items being a bit different.
So, with this in mind, lets look at all the requirements you need for keen.
Caster Level 10th. Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Ability to cast the Keen Edge spell. A +1 bonus (so 1 x 3 = third level)
So your base DC is 15 to create a keen sword. If you don't meet the caster level, it goes up to 20. If you can't cast Keen Edge, it goes up to 25.
BUT, there is light at the end of the tunnel! You can take 10!
10 from taking 10, 3 from class skill bonus, Masterwork Tool +2 spellcraft, +5 ranks, +3 intelligence.
Assuming your crafter is a 5th level wizard *so he can cast the keen edge spell*, your total bonus to spellcraft will be around +13, plus or minus a few from int or skill focus.
Then you take 10.
Your total of 23 is enough to allow you to add the Keen ability to your +1 sword without having the caster level for it.
So basically, get the item creation feats you want. If your henchman is keeping up on his spellcraft you probably won't be able to afford to make anything out of reach.
Magicdealer got it 99% right.
But you cannot put Keen on a non-magical weapon. It must be at least +1 to begin with (or you make it a +1 Keen weapon in the first place). Either way, that is a combined +2 weapon (1 for the enhancement, 1 for Keen) and would require you to be 6th level.
Another thing worth mentioning is the time required. Your cohort will need two days to make your efficient quiver and would need 8 days to to make a +1 Keen sword (or 6 days if he is just adding Keen to a +1 sword).
The formula is 1 day per 1,000 gold of the base cost (the selling price) of the item.
And also worth mentioning is that he needs half of that gold piece amount (half of the "base cost", i.e. half of the sale price) to make the item, and this cost must be paid up front.
Oh, and here is an interesting point. You can skip some requirements, but in my opinion, the matrerial cost is not one you can skip. For example, to make a +1 Ring of Protection you need to spend 1,000 gold on materials. Maybe a gold ring and few gems for a total of 1,000 gp should do it.
But I don't think you could just raise the DC by +5 and make that ring out of a melted down copper coin.
Note: I don't think there is anything in the rulebook that says my opinion on this is right. In fact, because of that, I believe the rules allow you to make that copper ring and not waste your money on those expensive materials, as long as you take the +5 DC.
But I personally don't believe that the rules intended for material costs to be optional. For example, every magical armor or weapon requires masterwork items. You cannot make a +1 wooden sword, unless you use really expensive rare woods, carved with masterwork skill, worth at least 1,300 gp. It says so in the book - you always need masterwork armor and weapons.
Maybe that is also something you can skip for a +5 penalty, but it also says in the book that "all magical armor is also masterwork armor" and "all magic weapons are also magical weapons". So if people could make copper rings and wooden swords, why are they always magical? So maybe this masterwork requiremnt cannot be skipped.
And if that cannot be skipped, then maybe othre material costs cannot be skipped.
Houserule? Almost certainly. But without it, everyone can make the simple magic items for free. No charge. Make them out of think air if you want to. And that could be potentially game-breaking compared to the Character Wealth by Level chart.
Just something to think about.
Houserule? Almost certainly. But without it, everyone can make the simple magic items for free. No charge. Make them out of think air if you want to. And that could be potentially game-breaking compared to the Character Wealth by Level chart.
Just something to think about.
I fully agree, but think that you might be making a bit more complex than necessary.
The rules allow you to disregard 'Requirements', which are listed neatly in their own block. 'Cost' is something different, and not subject to the skip-and-raise-dc rules.
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Well, I was assuming the sword was +1 already, since the op just asked about keen and not +1 keen.
But even so, the enhancement bonus is +1, and the keen ability is a special ability +1.
Doesn't this line: "Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two must be met. A weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus."
specify that they're calculated separately? So you wouldn't need a caster level of 6 until you either when to a +2 enhancement bonus, or a +2 special ability bonus.
Magicdealer is correct. You do not include the enhancement-equivalent abilities when determining the caster level needed for the enhancement bonus. The "extra prerequisite" for a +1 flaming weapon is CL 3, not CL 6. The "extra prerequisite" for a +3 keen flaming weapon is CL 9, not CL 15.
Since you can't go above +5 on actual enhancement bonus, this "extra prerequisite" will never go above CL 15.
specify that they're calculated separately? So you wouldn't need a caster level of 6 until you either when to a +2 enhancement bonus, or a +2 special ability bonus.
The extra prequisite is only for an actual enhancement bonus, not for an enhancement-equivalent ability. A special ability that is +2 equivalent has the caster level listed, no extra prerequisite based on its enhancement equivalence.
An interesting houserule I came up with, and have seen used neatly and cleanly, is to allow scrolls to be made without having the proper spell, at a -10 to the check.
This has served my group well in taking the place of the normal (and at least in 3.5, horribly vague) rules for researching new spells. Plus, it introduced a wonderful (at least for our playstyle) extra result: cursed spells. A poorly researched spell (bad check result on too high a DC) could become a cursed item. We decided such a spell actually learned and scribed into a spellbook would continue to be cursed.
Which can lead to anything from fireballs that make the caster's hair grow (amusing), to dimension door spells that don't actually work but the caster thinks it did (nearly lethal twice before the party proved to him it wasn't working), and in what must have been serendipity, a Tenser's Transformation that reversed the caster's gender.
I heartily reccomend the idea for anyone who doesn't mind the unpredictability of cursed items in their games. Many groups (well, many players) don't like them from reasons ranging to diminishing the heroic feel to simply upsetting the predictable numerical game system. But if your group's playstyle fits, and especially if you've been wondering how to quickly and easily handle spell research with existing rules, I recommend allowing scrolls to be made without the spell prerequisite.
If you are making a magic weapon, the higher of either 3x bonus or the highest CL of any special abilities is the number used. So if you are making a +1 keen longsword, the CL used is 10.