Considering capturing or very cleanly killing 4 young adult black dragons who have aroused my ire, nearby is a medium sized city that trades in exotic animals and their parts, as well as poisons and drugs
any ideas on gp value whether as specimens, bbq, magic item and spell componets, hopefully full acid bladders.....in a world like greyhawk or golarion that is fairly high magic?
An elephant (11HD, CR 7) is 1000 gp.
A psuedodragon (2HD, CR 1) is 200 gp.
A heavy warhorse (2HD, CR 2) is 300 gp.
These are the most expensive mounts I can find.
A young black dragon is CR 7 with 8 HD. It can fly and is intelligent. At a dead minimum, I'd say that an asking price for such dragons, were they to be for sale, would be in the 3000-5000 gp range. Were someone buying them live, I would say that 1000 gp a head would be reasonable. Keep in mind that 1,750 gp - 3,900 gp is the total treasure per encounter (depending on which XP track you are on) for an ECL 7, so if you give them 1000 gp for capturing them, you might want to reduce the horde slightly.
They are medium creatures, so I'd probably suggest that they can be harvested for a similar value in body parts.
My personal suggestion would be to look at the slow track advancement of any given dragon's CR, and give half of that as what a PC can sell the dragon for. Purchase of dragon parts and such may be more than twice that, due to the rarity of such things.
The 3.5 Draconomicon might have values for the sale of said dragons. That said, you realize you're enslaving intelligent creatures when you do this, right?
As for body parts, I again refer to the Draconomicon. It gives finished goods values, but it might also have something to say on body parts.
The 3.5 Draconomicon might have values for the sale of said dragons. That said, you realize you're enslaving intelligent creatures when you do this, right?
In a Medieval or Renaissance culture, this is a problem in what way?
There is a dragon article on butchering dragons...I'll look for it when I get off work.
The 3.5 Draconomicon might have values for the sale of said dragons. That said, you realize you're enslaving intelligent creatures when you do this, right?In a Medieval or Renaissance culture, this is a problem in what way?
Not worried about that. Worried about what the GM has to say, not the verisimilitude or other such factors, that's all. The culture may already have slaves, but if the character's alignment is supposed to read 'chaotic good' problems can arise. Just a note, that's all.
Not worried about that. Worried about what the GM has to say, not the verisimilitude or other such factors, that's all. The culture may already have slaves, but if the character's alignment is supposed to read 'chaotic good' problems can arise. Just a note, that's all.The 3.5 Draconomicon might have values for the sale of said dragons. That said, you realize you're enslaving intelligent creatures when you do this, right?In a Medieval or Renaissance culture, this is a problem in what way?
Also depends on how much the culture likes the scaly bastards. Might just call them "Indebtured Servants" with a really high debt if slavery is illegal.
To end the threadjack for the moment, there might have been old 1E values for dragons as mounts. I'd certainly try to find the price of dragon eggs in the old 1E Monster Manual and extrapolate upward. Or was it the 2E MC?
Sorry that I am not being helpful.
But I have to point to the fact that dragons a nearly worthless. Consider killing a gargantuan dragon (CR 21 for a blue one), harvest the skin, and make a full plate (which of course use all usable hide). This full plate you can sell for the crazy amount of 3300 gp.
You have a few young adults, you say? I'd price them like ponies.
I'd argue instead that a live Dragon could be worth upwards of 1000-2000 gold per HD to the right buyer. Wizards with an eye on breeding a herd of Half-Dragon Warhorses for the King's Heavy Cavalry would pay any price for 4 relatively unharmed and alive test-subjects for their experiments with infusing draconic blood into still-developing foteuses, let alone butchering the Dragon for it's hide, organs and other ingredients, then animating the Skeletons for guards.
An Order of Paladins or Knights would also be very interested in the beasts, making excellent training dummies for their squires or other candidates for joining the order, simply putting a Mark of Justice on the Dragon that cripples it with pain if it flies away and possibly other methods would prevent the Dragons from escaping and allowing them to be used again and again to train the next few dozen generations of Knights and Paladins.
On the other hand, a Gold Dragon might buy them off the PCs, or offer to trade something worth more than gold, a Dragon's good graces and the promise of a favour in the future, for the Dragon to take the Blacks under its proverbial wing and try to swing them to the side of Good, if not Law. And before you say 'But it's their nature!', no, they're merely inclined towards such an outlook by their parents and the lifestyle of living in a swamp full of the danger at every turn, most often from your own kind. A Gold Dragon with a decent Diplomacy score could potentially turn the Blacks into agents of Good, sending them out to protect Lizardfolk from the resource-driven expansion of the other civilised races as well as protecting sites of magical convergence from unscrupulous mages. If nothing else, the Gold Dragon might simply be willing to use a Ring of Wishes to convert the Black Dragons into Gold Dragons, carefully worded to make the Blacks Lawful Good upon their transformation, to help propagate his species while denying the loathesome Chromatics their own future. To deny Evil without killing the helpless...although I admit this comes perilously close to a Neutral or even Evil act if done against the Black Dragons' wills.
An Order of Paladins or Knights would also be very interested in the beasts, making excellent training dummies for their squires or other candidates for joining the order, simply putting a Mark of Justice on the Dragon that cripples it with pain if it flies away and possibly other methods would prevent the Dragons from escaping and allowing them to be used again and again to train the next few dozen generations of Knights and Paladins.
No so LG here... u´ll be breeding a full generation of fallen paladins.
Enslaving an inteligent being and make your troops train to fight them...Yep, no so LG to me, sounds more like an "For the greater good" action... and almost all of them, are evil.-
An Order of Paladins or Knights would also be very interested in the beasts, making excellent training dummies for their squires or other candidates for joining the order, simply putting a Mark of Justice on the Dragon that cripples it with pain if it flies away and possibly other methods would prevent the Dragons from escaping and allowing them to be used again and again to train the next few dozen generations of Knights and Paladins.No so LG here... u´ll be breeding a full generation of fallen paladins.
Enslaving an inteligent being and make your troops train to fight them...Yep, no so LG to me, sounds more like an "For the greater good" action... and almost all of them, are evil.-
Very true....
All the more reason to get the Paladins to try and buy them then!
*cue evil maniacal laughter please*
Wait.
Someone said a captured dragon would be worthless?
Have they every fought a dragon? Seen a dragon?
Or, and I know this is asking a lot, realize how a dragon works?
Capturing a dragon, especially at a young age would be PRIME stock. In a world, well, any world just about, it would be highly prized. It could be something desired for an exotic collection of pets. Perhaps someone would love to have a family dragon. Imagine that. It starts out young, considering if its a silver dragon for instance, and through the generations it ages with the specific bloodline. First it could of started out as a slave, but perhaps a wealthy -father- bought it for their child as a protective pet. If done correctly, the dragon could grow up, protecting the family it was initially enslaved by. Or even, the child it was given to as a pet-
Long story short. A captured dragon offers untold opportunities that cannot be measured in coin. I wish my players captured a dragon alive in one of my games. That would open up a whole new world of story.
Insanity. Just, insanity.
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Wait.
Someone said a captured dragon would be worthless?
Have they every fought a dragon? Seen a dragon?
Or, and I know this is asking a lot, realize how a dragon works?
Capturing a dragon, especially at a young age would be PRIME stock. In a world, well, any world just about, it would be highly prized. It could be something desired for an exotic collection of pets. Perhaps someone would love to have a family dragon. Imagine that. It starts out young, considering if its a silver dragon for instance, and through the generations it ages with the specific bloodline. First it could of started out as a slave, but perhaps a wealthy -father- bought it for their child as a protective pet. If done correctly, the dragon could grow up, protecting the family it was initially enslaved by. Or even, the child it was given to as a pet-
Long story short. A captured dragon offers untold opportunities that cannot be measured in coin. I wish my players captured a dragon alive in one of my games. That would open up a whole new world of story.
Insanity. Just, insanity.
I know, right? Alignment debate aside (and for the right price, I'll take a minor alignment hit), dragons are worth oodles. Someone upthread stated they were worthless. Someone upthread is also clueless.
Paladins/Knights would swoon over a chance to ride one into battle. Paladins would get wet at the idea of converting the evil dragon and using him as his steed.
It also depends on how young a dragon you happen to be talking about. Baby dragons can be trained, but young adult dragons need to basically either be beaten into submission or have a drastic change of heart to be really worth alot.
But I'm very sure their worth cold be in the 10s of thousands of gold pieces.
Considering capturing or very cleanly killing 4 young adult black dragons who have aroused my ire, nearby is a medium sized city that trades in exotic animals and their parts, as well as poisons and drugs
any ideas on gp value whether as specimens, bbq, magic item and spell componets, hopefully full acid bladders.....in a world like greyhawk or golarion that is fairly high magic?
How about I spare the lives of the women and children in your pathetic little "medium sized city" in exchange for my 4 stupid grandkids? I'll even give you 5 minutes to flee before I melt every single building into a swampy puddle.
Take it or leave it. I never liked those brats anyway.
Considering capturing or very cleanly killing 4 young adult black dragons who have aroused my ire, nearby is a medium sized city that trades in exotic animals and their parts, as well as poisons and drugs
any ideas on gp value whether as specimens, bbq, magic item and spell componets, hopefully full acid bladders.....in a world like greyhawk or golarion that is fairly high magic?How about I spare the lives of the women and children in your pathetic little "medium sized city" in exchange for my 4 stupid grandkids? I'll even give you 5 minutes to flee before I melt every single building into a swampy puddle.
Take it or leave it. I never liked those brats anyway.
He makes a valid point. Dragons of any kind are not going to look favourably on the 'sale' of their kind, even if it is of another type of Dragon. Almost every Dragon in creation considers itself inherently superiour to the Humanoid races in general, and seeing 'children' being hauled off to market like chickens is going to inflame the already egotistical heart of the first Dragon the PCs come across.
I'd argue the Black Dragon parents in question would be less inclined to save their offspring due to any parental bond but rather the knowledge that the loathesome rodents would be able to turn the offspring into acid-proof armor and weaponry, thus nulifying the Black's most potent weapon. Freeing the offspring would be secondary to wiping out the arrogant upstarts who thought they could sell the most powerful creatures on the face of Golarion. And possibly doing the above and causing irrevocable harm to the City just to make sure the point is put across.
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Considering capturing or very cleanly killing 4 young adult black dragons who have aroused my ire, nearby is a medium sized city that trades in exotic animals and their parts, as well as poisons and drugs
any ideas on gp value whether as specimens, bbq, magic item and spell componets, hopefully full acid bladders.....in a world like greyhawk or golarion that is fairly high magic?How about I spare the lives of the women and children in your pathetic little "medium sized city" in exchange for my 4 stupid grandkids? I'll even give you 5 minutes to flee before I melt every single building into a swampy puddle.
Take it or leave it. I never liked those brats anyway.
He makes a valid point. Dragons of any kind are not going to look favourably on the 'sale' of their kind, even if it is of another type of Dragon. Almost every Dragon in creation considers itself inherently superiour to the Humanoid races in general, and seeing 'children' being hauled off to market like chickens is going to inflame the already egotistical heart of the first Dragon the PCs come across.
I'd argue the Black Dragon parents in question would be less inclined to save their offspring due to any parental bond but rather the knowledge that the loathesome rodents would be able to turn the offspring into acid-proof armor and weaponry, thus nulifying the Black's most potent weapon. Freeing the offspring would be secondary to wiping out the arrogant upstarts who thought they could sell the most powerful creatures on the face of Golarion. And possibly doing the above and causing irrevocable harm to the City just to make sure the point is put across.
We don't even need them to be alive to be useful. A young dragon would make an excellent addition to a necromancer's army of skeletons/zombies.
What? What? What?
Oh... I am so going to go tell The Great Wyrm about this...
What? What? What?
Oh... I am so going to go tell The Great Wyrm about this...
Actually. Wait.
LET THEM sell the black dragons for mere gold coins.
Let them think the black dragons are harmless..
*rubs hands together while giggling madly*
Goooood... Gooooood..
Sorry that I am not being helpful.
But I have to point to the fact that dragons a nearly worthless. Consider killing a gargantuan dragon (CR 21 for a blue one), harvest the skin, and make a full plate (which of course use all usable hide). This full plate you can sell for the crazy amount of 3300 gp.
You have a few young adults, you say? I'd price them like ponies.
I'm sorry, but I actually snorted soda at how ridiculous this comment is. See Victor, Jared, and HalfOrc's comments for explanation.
One hostile Dragon is dangerous no matter the age. If not to the PC's then still so to the populace of whatever town they take it to. I think I read something about FOUR dragons?
Simply leading a hostile live dragon on a lead is too fraught with dangers. To move a live black dragon you'd need some sort of ultra-hard acid proof ceramic box.
no idea. but do they realy want to lead a dragon through a city on a lead? cant end well
Hmmm....Young Adult Black Dragons have ... DR 5/Magic, 1st level Spells as per a Sorcerer, the ability to cast Darkness at will, Large (long) size and 12 HD, plus all the assorted Dragon Goodies such as Immunity to Paralysis and Sleep, great saves across the board, Blindsense out to 60 feet and Frightful Presence out to a range of 150 feet.
You are going to have a hell of a time capturing them.
I would recommend acid-resistant shackles, best bet Adamantite or Mithril with acid-resistance enchantments, to secure mouth, wings,limbs and tail, effectivly muzzling and hobbling the Dragons. That takes care of the physical attacks and by keeping the mouth shut, prevents the Dragon from using its breath-weapon to attack or melt the restraints.
In regards to the magic ... I have a great fear the PCs would have to be on the look-out for the Dragon to try and cast cantrips or 1st level spells with no verbal component to get around being muzzled. Thankfully they don't have access to Knock, but Prestdigitation might become the bane of the PCs existence till the Dragons are securely imprisoned...
Frightful Presence is going to be a b!%&$. PCs and NPCs will have to make some fairly potent saves to not soil themselves and run away screaming. DC 17 will save, and the Dragons can potentially keep it up, one at a time, for a whopping 12 minutes, or 120 rounds, just to give whatever the PCs are using to drag/carry/haul the Dragons to the designated drop-off point as much hell as they can.
Darkness. At will. Can you say annoyance at best, or at worst, a cover for a Young Adult to try and use an Escape Artist attempt against your Masterwork Manacles. Just because they can't do a full Breath Weapon attack doesn't mean a Dragon won't risk accidentally suffocating on their own acid to try and dribble some onto the locks holding them captive.
Assuming the PCs can deal with all the the above, they should have little problem actually transporting the Dragons. How you'd actually capture them is another problem altogether...
no idea. but do they really want to lead a dragon through a city on a lead? cant end well
Young Adult Black Dragons have ... DR 5/Magic, 1st level Spells as per a Sorcerer, the ability to cast Darkness at will, Large (long) size and 12 HD, plus all the assorted Dragon Goodies such as Immunity to Paralysis and Sleep, great saves across the board, Blindsense out to 60 feet and Frightful Presence out to a range of 150 feet.
Presumably the 'heroes' have subdued the beasts and are dragging them into town. Note 'subdued' and not 'stabbed to within an inch of their lives'.
The manacle on the mouth is a tall order - not the least of which is that the likelihood of a smith knowing how to fashion a suitable manacle that will work correctly is a tad ... low. Rope would work better. Either way, being immune to its own acid, the dragon can readily slobber enough out of its own mouth around the bindings to dissolve them in short order. Young adults can 'barf up' 10d6 acid damage every - on average - 2 1/2 rounds. 35 points of averaged damage, improving 7 points each at Adult and Mature Adult. The dragon can escape given enough time, although adamantine will stop the Young Adult from escaping reliably.
However, black dragons do not gain frightful presence until they are of Adult age. Caveat to this is that black dragons are Large sized from Young Adult through Mature Adult age categories - and I rather doubt most characters are legitimately savvy enough to be able to distinguish between the various adult stages at a mere glance. At least, not until it is too late...
One of the omitted details to deal with is actually transporting the dragon unless you have managed to 'persuade' it / them to move under their own power without taking flight. Most beasts of burden I would doubt as being amenable to pulling the wagons it would take to transport creatures probably half again the size and mass of a draft (draught?) horse, with the smell of an apex predator all about them... Not even a paladin's mount or animal companion is going to be very happy about dragging an apex predator behind them.
Black Dragons have always been notorious for their impressive skills at deceit - they could easily 'pretend' to be Young Adult when they are actually older. The only thing they cannot feign is their DR - but the likelihood of any one seeking out a Large dragon without magical weaponry in hand is also very, very low. They can refrain from using frightful presence, barf up smaller, less damaging lines of acid, cast only one or two spells at the bare minimum of arcane power and use only the darkness ability, even go so far as to 'fall over' at the proper hit point totals for its 'younger days'. Granted, those seeking to deal nonlethal damage should be pretty obvious in the weapons used.
Once in town with their siblings - and perhaps even Mammy Dragon on the wing under invisibility watching things from above - they can 'break bad' with frightful presence, much more powerful magic and nastier puke spewing everywhere. Overlapping those who dared 'capture' them is rather high on their list I would think... ^_^
On the other hand, a Gold Dragon might buy them off the PCs, or offer to trade something worth more than gold, a Dragon's good graces and the promise of a favour in the future, for the Dragon to take the Blacks under its proverbial wing and try to swing them to the side of Good, if not Law. And before you say 'But it's their nature!', no, they're merely inclined towards such an outlook by their parents and the lifestyle of living in a swamp full of the danger at every turn, most often from your own kind.
And
Capturing a dragon, especially at a young age would be PRIME stock. In a world, well, any world just about, it would be highly prized…Perhaps someone would love to have a family dragon...bought it for their child as a protective pet. If done correctly, the dragon could grow up, protecting the family…Or even, the child it was given to as a pet-
Long story short. A captured dragon offers untold opportunities that cannot be measured in coin. I wish my players captured a dragon alive in one of my games. That would open up a whole new world of story.
Capturing, or befriending a young (or younger) dragon can result in an amazing turn of events. I played Council of Wyrms back in 2E, where two of my friends played a hatchling silver and a hatchling red dragon, while I played a NG derro wizard11/rogue12 (remember its 2E multiclassing rules) who had in previous play established a small community and served as it’s resident wizard and “mayor” of sorts. It started out in the hatchery, with a bunch of ogres trying to steal dragon eggs given over to the Council. After I finished off the ogres, two of the eggs hatched, the silver and red. Well, what happens to a newborn dragon when its mommy isn’t there? They imprint themselves on the first person they see. Also, a bronze dragon egg had been cracked, so I helped to incubate and hatch that one as well. In the end, there was a silver and red hatchling dragon (and eventually a bronze) with a NG alignment who were my friends, comrades, and “children” of sorts. Years later (about 200 years) the dragons end up being protectors of the now growing city I had established, in addition to an alternate alignment blue and crystal dragon who joined them later on. So, if a dragon is young enough, one could influence them towards one alignment or another.
Paladins/Knights would swoon over a chance to ride one into battle. Paladins would get wet at the idea of converting the evil dragon and using him as his steed.
It also depends on how young a dragon you happen to be talking about. Baby dragons can be trained, but young adult dragons need to basically either be beaten into submission or have a drastic change of heart to be really worth alot.
But I'm very sure their worth cold be in the 10s of thousands of gold pieces.
Paladin’s if they can find the right dragon type, would indeed seek them out as a steed. I played a paladin way back in 2E, converted him to 3E and 3,5E, and worked him into epic levels. At around level 24, he acquired a dragon steed/companion, and adamantine dragon, and together they reeked some serious havoc on the evil front, especially with his retractable adamantine lance and greatsword. Also, lets not forget the “redeemed” quality in the Book of Exalted Deeds. A powerful enough goodly power (monster or humanoid race) could convert them to the side of light (possibly).
As an a aside, in my campaign world, I even have a redeemed pit fiend who is under the protection of some very powerful clerics and paladins of good, a former soldier of the ongoing blood wars between the forces of the 9 hells and the abyss. So, it could happen. It’s all about the appropriate story lines and intrigues.
After 28 years of playing, I've learned that sometimes you need to use the established rules to create an extention of your own. Not to say things should be too crazy, but we are playing a FANTASY RPG after all, where fantastic and extraordinary things can happen, both to the benefit and detriment of a player or party. As a GM, you decide on the path your story will take, hopefully with some discussion and input from the players.
As an a aside, in my campaign world, I even have a redeemed pit fiend who is under the protection of some very powerful clerics and paladins of good, a former soldier of the ongoing blood wars between the forces of the 9 hells and the abyss. So, it could happen. It’s all about the appropriate story lines and intrigues.
There's at least one "pseudo-canon" example of a redeemed fiend that I'm aware of (Fall-From-Grace, LN-leaning-LG Succubus Cleric) as well as numerous effects that do the same, and certainly there's plenty of DMs out there who have done likewise.
A dragon is significantly easier - they don't have a natural, in-bred inclination towards one specific alignment like a fiend would, unless you're going with the thing mentioned in the Draconomicon about dragons having hereditary memory (which I tend to dislike as I like swapping alignments around on dragons, and some settings - notably Eberron - threw out on principle). Heck, I just introduced a non-evil Shadow Dragon in one of my games.
Assuming you can spend the time and gold to research it, nothing is stopping you from developing a high-level magical artefact that can effectively 'syphon' magical energy away from the Dragon(s), effectively leaving them giant flying lizards instead of Dragons (assuming that such a device could also affect their Supernatural and Spell-Like abilities).
Alternatively just belt 'em with an Anti-Magic Device, which neuters the Dragons' breath-weapons and Damage Reduction and ye olde Adamantite Chains wrapped really, really, really tightly around the muzzles and legs and secured several times over with Adamantite Superior-type Locks by the highest BAB character in your group.
How to capture them? Balista bolts magically enchanted to function similarly to Rope of Entanglement or Iron Bands of Binding, or failing that, a ruddy great net tossed out of a Catapult with boulders for weights or by a flying/teleporting character. While the Dragon(s) is raging about in the net (again, Adamantite for strength and resisting the Acid Breath!), have the Players throw every Charm/Dominate they can at the Dragon, get it to lie still and have somebody weld the net shut over them via Wizard Glue or something similar, then cast Levitate on the Dragon until you can load it onto a flatbed wagon especially constructed for the purpose and pulled by either Undead or Golemns.
Once secured to the Wagon, assuming the Charm is still holding, bring in the Anti-Magic Device. Dragon is no longer charmed or dominated ... but can also no longer use his or her magical abilities, any of them, and must rely upon brute strength while effectively pinned to a flatbed Wagon made of the strongest metal known to mortal knowledge with enough firepower leveled at it so that, at a shout, the Device drops its anti-magic field and the Dragon gets a barrage of +3 Dragon-Bane Heavy Crossbow Bolts tipped with to quiet it down. Blue Whinnis for my own choice, given that the Black Dragon is NOT immune to poisons, merely paralysis and sleep. Once asleep, nothing is stopping the PCs from pouring a few gallons of Oil of Taggit down the Dragon's throat every half hour just to avoid an accident until the Black is securely imprisoned within an acid-proof cage, awaiting the highest bidder.
On to the subject of the Black Dragon Revenge ... maybe the local Lizardfolk would be happy to get these terrible monsters out of their ... scales for an iron-clad guarantee that the Soft-Skins will stay the hell out of their swamp.