I never really understood why we have these for players in the first place. Player character stats are already exceptional with regards to the assumed baselines for members of their species, so the +2/-2 to various stats just seems like pointless quibbling, kind of like "you can only be this exceptionally likable, Mr. Dwarf."
Mechanically it's even worse. It's not like this actually hurts you if you're just going to pick a race for the stats. Pre-Pathfinder you could find almost any stat combo you liked, probably just within the elven subraces. It could still be that easy depending on how you update those races for use with Pathfinder. Even if you're sticking to core there are certain race/class combos that are just better than others. Where this does penalize you is when you pick an unoptimal combo for flavour reasons. Have an awesome Dwarf sorcerer you want to play? Ok, but you'll be less powerful than if you picked any other race.
I'd really like to just flat out eliminate racial stat bonuses, but I'll probably just have it so everyone gets a +2 to a stat of choice.
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I never really understood why we have these for players in the first place. Player character stats are already exceptional with regards to the assumed baselines for members of their species, so the +2/-2 to various stats just seems like pointless quibbling, kind of like "you can only be this exceptionally likable, Mr. Dwarf."
Mechanically it's even worse. It's not like this actually hurts you if you're just going to pick a race for the stats. Pre-Pathfinder you could find almost any stat combo you liked, probably just within the elven subraces. It could still be that easy depending on how you update those races for use with Pathfinder. Even if you're sticking to core there are certain race/class combos that are just better than others. Where this does penalize you is when you pick an unoptimal combo for flavour reasons. Have an awesome Dwarf sorcerer you want to play? Ok, but you'll be less powerful than if you picked any other race.
I'd really like to just flat out eliminate racial stat bonuses, but I'll probably just have it so everyone gets a +2 to a stat of choice.
That really does make sense. Using dwarf as an example, the stat adjustments given are for a "typical" dwarf. The problem is, an adventuring dwarf is far from typical given the description of the race (clan oriented, don't like to leave their homelands, etc.). Adventurers are adventurers because they break away from the the norms of their race, so their physiology wouldn't necessarily be the norm of their race.
It's really something from the first editions of D&D. So yeah, why the heck not. Agile dwarves and strong halflings? I approve wholeheartedly.
What about the other racial gunk though? Were you going to do anything with that?
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It's really something from the first editions of D&D. So yeah, why the heck not. Agile dwarves and strong halflings? I approve wholeheartedly.
What about the other racial gunk though? Were you going to do anything with that?
Things like darkvision and low-light vision wouldn't go away I think, but then again, the adopted trait doesn't specify what racial traits you can pick up, so is it possible to pick up darkvision?
You could allow a Racial trait that lets the player swap one ability bonus or penalty to another ability. The GM would have to monitor this to prevent abuse, but it would reflect the unusual nature of the character, support the player's concept, and cost a little bit.
Makes sense to me. I also agree with TRiOmegaZro's assertion in his linked thread that point buy systems in particular eliminate the need for racial stat mods.
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If I were to rewrite the racial abilities, I would make things like Defensive Training and racial weapon proficiencies a trait thing, separate from actual racial abilities, and let them depend on the characters background. So a half-orc raised by elves would be proficient in longbows and rapiers rather than double-axes. Likewise, an elf raised by dwarves would get stonecunning rather than elven magic.
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The Adopted trait doesn't work that way. It allows you to pick one of the traits (a trait like one of the ones from combat, social, and those other categories, only specific to a particular race) even though you're not of that race.
EDIT: Also, I don't really like this whole idea. It makes the races a bit too arbitrary, especially if you allow the swapping of any ability like the elven magic and stonecunning. It would take away some of their allure for me. That, and certain characters I like to have 2 higher stats, where a system like this would make it harder.
Makes sense to me. I also agree with TRiOmegaZro's assertion in his linked thread that point buy systems in particular eliminate the need for racial stat mods.Actually, even rolling for ability scores would be fine without set racial mods, I think.
Agreed, I should have said especially instead of particularly.
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Point-buy systems don't eliminate the need for stat mods. Stat mods become even more important so that you don't waste an abundant amount of points when you're planning your character. Higher stats cost much more, so if you can get two 18's by getting two 16's, then you've saved 14 points.
Of course, this change won't really bug the hardcore role-players, but my group is a little more power-gamery than that. I love role-play, don't get me wrong that's why I play the game, but I also like to have an optimized character
Point-buy systems don't eliminate the need for stat mods. Stat mods become even more important so that you don't waste an abundant amount of points when you're planning your character. Higher stats cost much more, so if you can get two 18's by getting two 16's, then you've saved 14 points.
You're assuming that a system that does away with racial mods would not also adjust the point buy system to make up for this change.
And I assumed we were just talking about the merits of doing away with racial mods in general, without getting into the specifics (yet) of what else would have to be adjusted to make up for that.
I'm not saying your assumption was inferior OR superior to mine. Just saying, your objection is one that can be addressed without having to scrap the OP idea.
It's really something from the first editions of D&D. So yeah, why the heck not. Agile dwarves and strong halflings? I approve wholeheartedly.
What about the other racial gunk though? Were you going to do anything with that?
Probably not. I mean at this point I kind of want to go through and rework the proficiencies and the dwarf training and other things so that they'd make more sense for the setting I'm running, but I probably won't touch them just out of sheer conservatism.
Ideally though you'd separate the cultural traits by region and leave racial traits to be those biological/magical aspects, like the darkness spell like ability for tieflings or flight for races with wings. I'd also do away with other bonuses, like the dwarf bonus to saving throws. I guess I'm biased towards wanting racial traits to be interesting; traits you interact with are nicer overall than traits you don't, and traits that let you do something you otherwise couldn't are nicer than traits that add to a number that gets lost amidst all the other bonuses.
And I assumed we were just talking about the merits of doing away with racial mods in general, without getting into the specifics (yet) of what else would have to be adjusted to make up for that.
I'm not saying your assumption was inferior OR superior to mine. Just saying, your objection is one that can be addressed without having to scrap the OP idea.
Quite frankly I consider it a plus that it does away with that. I'm not sure why we'd consider not being able to game the system to be a negative, but I'm open to arguments from the other side.
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Point-buy systems don't eliminate the need for stat mods. Stat mods become even more important so that you don't waste an abundant amount of points when you're planning your character. Higher stats cost much more, so if you can get two 18's by getting two 16's, then you've saved 14 points.
There is no need for stat mods. The group should come to a consensus on where they want the power level, and stick with it. If the group wants the characters to have two 18s, it should just use a scale that lets the players buy them, without resorting to gaming the system.
Quite frankly I consider it a plus that it does away with that. I'm not sure why we'd consider not being able to game the system to be a negative, but I'm open to arguments from the other side.And I assumed we were just talking about the merits of doing away with racial mods in general, without getting into the specifics (yet) of what else would have to be adjusted to make up for that.
I'm not saying your assumption was inferior OR superior to mine. Just saying, your objection is one that can be addressed without having to scrap the OP idea.
ANY system can be gamed. It has always been thus, and thus it ever more shall be, world without end, amen. Don't believe me? I recommend you read this. Heck, even if you DO believe me, read it, it's hilarious but also suprisingly instructional. Point buy systems are probably some of the most gameable systems out there, and this is coming from an old Champions player and staunch point buyist. The answer to a system being gamed is not to change the system, it's a GM with a sharp eye, keen mind, strong will, and possibly a working knowledge of cattle prods.
But the thing is, it seems obvious that racial mods were a nod to the limitations of random roll chargen systems back when they were introduced -- they allow for a modicum of the customization and optimization. That's why I say that while eliminating them is a good idea in general, it is BEST combined with some variation of a point buy system.
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Some may consider it gaming the system, but everyone in my group has a lot of fun messing around with all of the different combinations with racial stat mods and such to get the best ones we can. Not everyone sees powergaming as bad... We actually congratulate each other for coming up with an awesome combo, rather than scold them for making a powerful character that kills things too fast. Maybe we're competitive, maybe we're insane, but this is my experience. I personally like that elves are frail but dexterous and smart, and that dwarves are wise and gruff but tough, and that halflings are weak but agile and charming (especially since they are basically children)... It appeals to both the power-gamer and role-player in me at the same time.
EDIT: But also since I see that I am the minority in here that will not change any minds, I think that I will probably step out now
Some may consider it gaming the system, but everyone in my group has a lot of fun messing around with all of the different combinations with racial stat mods and such to get the best ones we can. Not everyone sees powergaming as bad... We actually congratulate each other for coming up with an awesome combo, rather than scold them for making a powerful character that kills things too fast. Maybe we're competitive, maybe we're insane, but this is my experience. I personally like that elves are frail but dexterous and smart, and that dwarves are wise and gruff but tough, and that halflings are weak but agile and charming (especially since they are basically children)... It appeals to both the power-gamer and role-player in me at the same time.
As I said, any sytem can be gamed. It's up to each group of players to decide whether that's a good or bad thing.
As for your preference regarding racial mods, Great, so play them that way. But you can still do that in a system without racial mods, simply by applying the system in a way that MIMICS racial mods -- and all the while, players and groups that bristle at the handcuffing those mods represent can also use the SAME SYSTEM and get an entirely different aet of results.
Some may consider it gaming the system, but everyone in my group has a lot of fun messing around with all of the different combinations with racial stat mods and such to get the best ones we can. Not everyone sees powergaming as bad... We actually congratulate each other for coming up with an awesome combo, rather than scold them for making a powerful character that kills things too fast. Maybe we're competitive, maybe we're insane, but this is my experience. I personally like that elves are frail but dexterous and smart, and that dwarves are wise and gruff but tough, and that halflings are weak but agile and charming (especially since they are basically children)... It appeals to both the power-gamer and role-player in me at the same time.
EDIT: But also since I see that I am the minority in here that will not change any minds, I think that I will probably step out now
I don't think powergaming is bad either, but lets be honest. Your 16 str halfling is a muscle-god compared to most people. The average on a 4d6 drop lowest (after rounding down) is 12, which means the average player halfling is just as strong as a normal human in the first place. Your player elves aren't weak and graceful, they're both stronger and more graceful than other elves and a lot more graceful and just as strong as humans.
It's not like this is a flat negative to powergamers either, I'm sure it'll open up some race/class combos that were suboptimal before.
Edit: I mean, you could just do it so that you have +2 to two stats and -2 to one stat and end up with the "best" of both worlds...
...even though I'm still not sure why being able to squeeze extra points out of the point buy system is worth preserving.
ANY system can be gamed. It has always been thus, and thus it ever more shall be, world without end, amen. Don't believe me? I recommend you read this. Heck, even if you DO believe me, read it, it's hilarious but also suprisingly instructional. Point buy systems are probably some of the most gameable systems out there, and this is coming from an old Champions player and staunch point buyist. The answer to a system being gamed is not to change the system, it's a GM with a sharp eye, keen mind, strong will, and possibly a working knowledge of cattle prods.
But the thing is, it seems obvious that racial mods were a nod to the limitations of random roll chargen systems back when they were introduced -- they allow for a modicum of the customization and optimization. That's why I say that while eliminating them is a good idea in general, it is BEST combined with some variation of a point buy system.
Yeah I believe you, but it still doesn't answer my question, mainly why this is feature of the point buy system worth preserving, regardless of whether I'm changing this purposefully or inadvertently.
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I don't think powergaming is bad either, but lets be honest. Your 16 str halfling is a muscle-god compared to most people. The average on a 4d6 drop lowest (after rounding down) is 12, which means the average player halfling is just as strong as a normal human in the first place. Your player elves aren't weak and graceful, they're both stronger and more graceful than other elves and a lot more graceful and just as strong as humans.
It's not like this is a flat negative to powergamers either, I'm sure it'll open up some race/class combos that were suboptimal before.
Edit: I mean, you could just do it so that you have +2 to two stats and -2 to one stat and end up with the "best" of both worlds...
...even though I'm still not sure why being able to squeeze extra points out of the point buy system is worth preserving.
Because the standard is 15 points. Which if you don't change is woefully short for many MAD character builds without the +2 to two stats and -2 to one. Course we could just make 20 the stanard...or some other number. But either case does up the gaming the system somewhat.
Yeah I believe you, but it still doesn't answer my question, mainly why this is feature of the point buy system worth preserving, regardless of whether I'm changing this purposefully or inadvertently.ANY system can be gamed. It has always been thus, and thus it ever more shall be, world without end, amen. Don't believe me? I recommend you read this. Heck, even if you DO believe me, read it, it's hilarious but also suprisingly instructional. Point buy systems are probably some of the most gameable systems out there, and this is coming from an old Champions player and staunch point buyist. The answer to a system being gamed is not to change the system, it's a GM with a sharp eye, keen mind, strong will, and possibly a working knowledge of cattle prods.
But the thing is, it seems obvious that racial mods were a nod to the limitations of random roll chargen systems back when they were introduced -- they allow for a modicum of the customization and optimization. That's why I say that while eliminating them is a good idea in general, it is BEST combined with some variation of a point buy system.
Sorry, I'm not sure which feature you mean. If you mean the racial mods, then you won't GET an answe from me, because I agree with you.
I'm against dropping the racial stat mods. Especially now that humans and half-elves get a +2 to one ability score. They promote fantasy stereotypes like "elves are the best wizards and archers", "all dwarfs are tough", "humans can excel at anything" etc. Of course you can make a sickly dwarf or a clumsy elf by assigning an appropriately low score to the ability but those are exceptional. As are dwarven wizards. I don't see ability score mods as forcing you into a role, I love the idea of playing an elven paladin who doesn't get a bonus on strength or charisma. He will however be more skilled (have more skill points because of +2 Int) and be able to evade attacks and use a bow better than others (+2 Dex for the typical elven grace). That's what makes him different from the paladins of other races. If you abandon the stat mods everybody will feel almost the same.
This past campaign I started I wanted to go clasical, so we did classic gygaxion, 3d6 straight down.
I had more fun coming up witha race/class combo, but all of my players grumped and whined and moaned. We've been using he 4d6, drop lowest, then assign method for 10 years now.
And I nearly had a coup on my hands, so what i did was i allowed them to reduce their scores via the pint buy method to gain points, then increase other scores by spending the points.
All in all, the characters came out virtually the same, and I DID NOT allow the players that restatted with points their racial ability mods.
And i tell you what, it has been the most balanced and fun gaming I've had in years. People were actually preparing and taking spells they'd never take in a million years before. Suddenly spells like Bear's Endurance become uber god spells where before it was a slight to moderate buff.
While i agree with keeping the racial ability mods (I was rather upset they changed the half-orc's), I can see where in some cases they may not be needed.
the pint buy method being my players buy me a pint, and i let them up a score! the more pints i get, the higher their scores!
lol
So no more gracile elves and gruff dwarves?
Of course, you'll do away with everything else, right? Making all dwarves slow is limiting, too, since that means that dwarves suck for everything that depends on fast movement. Or if I want a civilised, non-ferocious half-orc. Or everything else.
I think the stat mods make up a big part of what drives the fluff of the races. If you arent interested in the standard fluff i think it matters less to you, but for me, I was even sad to see the flat half orc mods lost. It changes my perceptions of the race without them, and I no longer feel they fit their gruff barbaric image that I had of them in 3.5. Such a change would sterilize the rest of the races to me, and I wouldnt enjoy them as much. I would probably play humans exclusively from that point forward, as there would be little to no reason (in my opinion) to play anything else from a mechanical standpoint or a flavor standpoint.
So no more gracile elves and gruff dwarves?
Of course, you'll do away with everything else, right? Making all dwarves slow is limiting, too, since that means that dwarves suck for everything that depends on fast movement. Or if I want a civilised, non-ferocious half-orc. Or everything else.
Yes, we're going to do away with everything. Life as you know it will be nothing but a white featureless void as far as the eye can see.
I think the stat mods make up a big part of what drives the fluff of the races. If you arent interested in the standard fluff i think it matters less to you, but for me, I was even sad to see the flat half orc mods lost. It changes my perceptions of the race without them, and I no longer feel they fit their gruff barbaric image that I had of them in 3.5. Such a change would sterilize the rest of the races to me, and I wouldnt enjoy them as much. I would probably play humans exclusively from that point forward, as there would be little to no reason (in my opinion) to play anything else from a mechanical standpoint or a flavor standpoint.
Stat mods are the almost the most bland and invisible racial mods you can have. When it comes to the feel of certain races, abilities that you actively use (spell like abilities) and passives that let you do something that you couldn't do before (wield a certain weapon) count for a lot more in the experience of actual play. Stat mods are lost in the sea of numbers that determine any particular check or bonuns.
Seriously, the whole point of doing away with stat mods is so that we can actually have more interesting racial abilities. There's an opportunity cost to stat mods and they're not worth it.
Also, I specifically said this is for player characters. You have the power to determine your character to be however you like and it doesn't matter because player characters are outliers to begin with. This doesn't mean doing away with graceful elves or gruff dwarves, it just means the player shouldn't be penalized for wanting to play otherwise. And it's not like you had gruff player dwarves in the first place. The average on a 4d6 drop lowest is 12. The average player dwarf is just as likable as a human. And it's not like a -2 to charisma is enough to make you gruff in the first place. The orc isn't barbaric because he has a -2 to int and cha. In the standard population human majority layouts in the 3rd edition books, there will be more humans that are at 8 in int and cha than there are orcs in total, yet the world isn't overrun by gruff and barbaric humans.
Anyway so I'm doing this for my next game. Now I only have to decide whether I want to give everyone a +2 to a single stat, no stat boosts at all or +2 to two stats and -2 to one.
My problem now is that all of these options seem to leave the half elf and half orc really looking bland compared to everyone else.
i challenge everyone to build a pc using the 3d6 straight down method, then make a character using the stat point mods.
You will see then where they really count a a balancing factor.
Also, almost this much in standard point buy.
but, in my many years of experience, I will say that there are many more occasions where they can be abused.
How many 1st level characters should have stats like 18, 16, 14, 13, 12,12, because that seems to be the types of scores my players always get when using the 4d6, drop the lowest die, assign scores, then apply ability mods.
I remember back in my day when 18's were super rare, and you were happy if you got a 14 in something.
i challenge everyone to build a pc using the 3d6 straight down method, then make a character using the stat point mods.
You will see then where they really count a a balancing factor.
Also, almost this much in standard point buy.
but, in my many years of experience, I will say that there are many more occasions where they can be abused.
How many 1st level characters should have stats like 18, 16, 14, 13, 12,12, because that seems to be the types of scores my players always get when using the 4d6, drop the lowest die, assign scores, then apply ability mods.
I remember back in my day when 18's were super rare, and you were happy if you got a 14 in something.
yea well I played in the days when that was the choice for stats.
also in those days which was 1st and 2nd edition stat system, your stat didn't mean anything unless you needed it for casting or it was higher then 16.
You all forget the roleplay element.
A dwarf is tend to good health and is wise or perceptive in general. When a character dont want to do that he had to explain why his dwarf is not so healthy is as other dwarves. It is all about fun.
A Hafling is bendy an aimable. You can see it back in stats modifiers.
For mechanics: Make two wizards. One elf and a Dwarf. I get total different ones!
I would like to remove mental racial mods and replace them with a floating one, but keep the physical mods.
So the races would look something like this:
Elf +2 Dex -2 Con
Dwarf +2 Con -2 Dex
Halfling +2 Dex -2 Str
Gnome +2 Con -2 Str
And they could each place a +2 in either wisdom, charisma or intelligence.
Yes, we're going to do away with everything. Life as you know it will be nothing but a white featureless void as far as the eye can see.
Ah, like Axxis, the heart of curruption?
Stat mods are the almost the most bland and invisible racial mods you can have.
I don't know about invisible - those elves are, on average, more agile then those humans. That's easy and visible. And halflings and gnomes are so much better company than those antisocial dwarves that it's not even funny.
Ability scores are the most basic and most pervasive traits a character has. Plus, racial ability modifiers are the most wide-spread feature in fantasy races. If the great agility of elves or toughness of dwarves isn't in the first sentence someone uses to describe those races, it will be in the second.
When it comes to the feel of certain races, abilities that you actively use (spell like abilities) and passives that let you do something that you couldn't do before (wield a certain weapon) count for a lot more in the experience of actual play.
Yeah, but all fighters can use long swords and longbows, not just elven ones. They can all uses hammers and axes, not just those dwarves.
And in fact, that stuff can be as limiting as the ability modifiers, maybe even more so!
"If I play a dwarf wizard, my slow and steady is useless!"
"Why play an elven archer-fighter? My longbow bonus weapon is lost that way!"
"You play a gnome fighter? Are you mad? You're small! And your bonus to illusion stuff is wasted!"
And talking about bland, this stuff does more damage than the ability score modifiers, because if you want to use a dwarf that uses, say, a bow, you won't live up to your maximum potential. Or the elven fighter who goes for an exotic weapon that is not the curveblade. Or gnome spellcasters that don't use illusion.
"Look, it's one of the elves, they all use bows. And there's a gnome. Probably using lots of illusions. And this dwarf probably stole that sword, because they all use hammers. Or, the halfling stole it for him - they're all rogues and such, being good at stealth and all the tumbling stuff"
So if you do away with the racial ability modifiers, the next logical step is to do away with other racial modifiers, too, and either have no racial differences in the game mechanics at all, or have a building block system, where you can choose a couple of weapons, or a bonus to some sorts of saves, or 2 skills of your choice to get bonuses.
That way, you can really play the character you want.
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Actually, I think the poster above who suggested that you lock in the physical and negative and choose mental is brilliant.
Actually I'd go one step further. You lock in the negative and either physical OR mental, the other stat is one of your choice (not in same stat as negative.
I'm sad Dwarves are unplayable because nobody particularly needs Wis/Con (they are OK clerics); and others are too "Pigeon holed". By the same tOken, I think some of the racial "known traits" should be kept.
As it stands, my current party has chosen all human hybrids for the flexibility; and i've noted that trend in PFS in general. Seems kind of a shame.
I think removing racial mods is an overall negative to the game.
I strongly dispute the idea that a single +2 to a primary stat is make or break on a viable character. There is a huge gulf between optimized to near perfection and completely viable. And the bonus to other stats can readily provide perks that off-set the penalty.
Whereas if you end up with stats for an elf wizard and identical stats for a dwarf wizard because that is the optimal build, then you just have cookie cutters with name tags that say "elf" and "dwarf".
You are not going to break the game by any stretch.
And if mini skirmish combat is the key element of the game, then absolutely 100% go for it.
But if you want playing the role of a dwarf sorcerer to capture as much as possible the distinction of a dwarf sorcerer compared to other race's sorcerers, then this undermines that goal.
For the style of game play that I prefer, any degree of racial homogenization is a setback and any advantage of this change would be negligible. And I'm not certain that combat optimization above all else isn't a disadvantage of its own when all is said and done.
I don't know about invisible - those elves are, on average, more agile then those humans. That's easy and visible. And halflings and gnomes are so much better company than those antisocial dwarves that it's not even funny.
Yeah and they still will be. Are people ignoring the "this is for players only" bit or is having your relative position on the bellcurve shifted something everyone feels is integral to their roleplaying experience?
Yeah, but all fighters can use long swords and longbows, not just elven ones. They can all uses hammers and axes, not just those dwarves.And in fact, that stuff can be as limiting as the ability modifiers, maybe even more so!
"If I play a dwarf wizard, my slow and steady is useless!"
"Why play an elven archer-fighter? My longbow bonus weapon is lost that way!"
"You play a gnome fighter? Are you mad? You're small! And your bonus to illusion stuff is wasted!"And talking about bland, this stuff does more damage than the ability score modifiers, because if you want to use a dwarf that uses, say, a bow, you won't live up to your maximum potential. Or the elven fighter who goes for an exotic weapon that is not the curveblade. Or gnome spellcasters that don't use illusion.
I'm comfortable with certain races being better for certain classes than others. The difference between not getting any use out of Slow and Steady from a dwarf and getting a -2 to your spellcasting stat is that one is a wasted opportunity cost and the other actively punishes you for playing that race, rather than coming up neutral when weighed against a theoretical statless race. It's not a meaningful distinction if you're optimizing since all choices are opportunity costs anyway, but not getting any use out of Slow and Steady hurts a hell of a lot less than getting a -2 to your spellcasting stat, so you're at best wildly overrating its affect if you think that's more punishing.
I think removing racial mods is an overall negative to the game.
I strongly dispute the idea that a single +2 to a primary stat is make or break on a viable character.
Well, no one is going to argue with you because no one is arguing that.
I disagree with the premise that races should be more alike. In fact, I think the races should be MORE different. It's my biggest beef with the Half-Orc and the Half-Elf. I want to see a very diverse racial group.
Yeah me too. Here's an idea, if we remove the net +2 stat every race gets, we can use those "points" to give them other interesting abilities without pushing the races into +1 LA territory.
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As much as the "play for fun" group may be out there; the majority of players DO play to make their characters really good. Humping yourself at the beginning of the game by throwing out stat mods does make your character less useful. Now this is fine if the whole party does it; but usually there's one of these at the table that seem to build their characters badly on purpose in the name of "having fun". And these people usually detract from the fun of the other players.
Why not have the best of both worlds: diverse races (move one of the bonuses) with a variety of classes. Want a dwarf Mage? Put the +2 in Int rather than Wisdom. Elven fighter (Legollos)? Str instead of dex. Halfling barbarian? Well, that's stret ching it a bit...
I'm sad Dwarves are unplayable because nobody particularly needs Wis/Con
Even if that were true, which it isn't, it would hardly make a race unplayable.
+Wis/+Con/-Cha can be great for clerics who don't care too much about channeling, it is great for monks (despite their short legs, dwarves make good monks, as their racial abilities already give them a strong defence) and not bad for rangers.
However, thay should get some sort of bonus to NOT going that route, like:
Arcane Aptitude: Dwarves do not make natural Sorcerers or Bards, and those that manage to achieve success are truly exceptional. Dwarves capable of casting spontanious arcane spells gain a +1 to the spell DC.
This would help negate the penalty for playing the class, but keep the stat lower than it would have been otherwise.
What else? Halfling and gnome warriors get Improved Monkey Grip (get to use medium weapons without penalty)? Elves get "Elf Tougness" (which works like Toughness and stacks with it, too)?
Are people ignoring the "this is for players only"
You need to ask people that.
I, for one, am totally ignoring that. I hate gamist rules* with a passion.
*gamist rules: Rules that make no sense in the context of the game world and are there as a rule for rules' sake.
Actually, I don't generally hate gamist rules - I just hate them in roleplaying games, which are supposed to be more than a simple board game. Gamist rules are great for chess, monopoly and poker.