First comes my tip: Before you write an adventure based on mostly solving a mystery, make sure you have read ALL THE CLASS DESCRIPTIONS so that you know that the inquisitor can know when anyone is lying and can wreck every social encounter -_-;
Now for the questions: Does anyone know a way around this ability? I have an adventure that is essentially based around a large mystery in a castle. A summary of the details is a bit too much, but in short EVERYONE in the castle is keeping some kind of secret for one reason or another. While those secrets are meant to be discovered at some point, the Inquisitor can basically figure this out with a simple spellcasting and that is not something I'd like to happen.
For example: I was thinking about having the maid, Elizabeth, of the house drop the players an anonymous written note, but with discern lies they will easily be able to know who wrote it. They will just have to ask each member of staff (there are only 6-7 people working in this place) until they find out.
This made me consider this scenario. Elizabeth is aware of this ability and how it works. I'm trying to think of ways to counter this ability based on how the question she is asked is worded.
For example if she were to say "enn oh" in response to a question in which "no" would be lying, would it register as she is lying? She could herself view it as being the two letters "N" and "O" pronounced separately thereby not actually being a response to the question asked. While this is certainly an odd way to answer a yes/no it could likely work atleast once. Similarly one could use a "Mmmm..." to say yes without actually saying yes.
Secondly, the wording of the spell seems to indicate that it applies to SPEECH only. That's the exact wording of the spell. Does this mean nodding or shaking your head will not trigger?
Edit: Can someone cast Modify Memory on himself? (just realized this loophole)
First comes my tip: Before you write an adventure based on mostly solving a mystery, make sure you have read ALL THE CLASS DESCRIPTIONS so that you know that the inquisitor can know when anyone is lying and can wreck every social encounter -_-;
Now for the questions: Does anyone know a way around this ability? I have an adventure that is essentially based around a large mystery in a castle. A summary of the details is a bit too much, but in short EVERYONE in the castle is keeping some kind of secret for one reason or another. While those secrets are meant to be discovered at some point, the Inquisitor can basically figure this out with a simple spellcasting and that is not something I'd like to happen.
For example: I was thinking about having the maid, Elizabeth, of the house drop the players an anonymous written note, but with discern lies they will easily be able to know who wrote it. They will just have to ask each member of staff (there are only 6-7 people working in this place) until they find out.
This made me consider this scenario. Elizabeth is aware of this ability and how it works. I'm trying to think of ways to counter this ability based on how the question she is asked is worded.
For example if she were to say "enn oh" in response to a question in which "no" would be lying, would it register as she is lying? She could herself view it as being the two letters "N" and "O" pronounced separately thereby not actually being a response to the question asked. While this is certainly an odd way to answer a yes/no it could likely work atleast once. Similarly one could use a "Mmmm..." to say yes without actually saying yes.
Secondly, the wording of the spell seems to indicate that it applies to SPEECH only. That's the exact wording of the spell. Does this mean nodding or shaking your head will not trigger?
Edit: Can someone cast Modify Memory on himself? (just realized this loophole)
Anti-magic zone :3
That's an interesting suggestion. I will consider it.
What about Undetection? It seems to protect from divination and it mentions the "detect" spells. Does it work against discern lies?
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You could always do something like, she writes the note and has the stable boy slip it under their door at night.
Then when the party asks her.
"Did you give us this note?"
she can tell them no and it would be true, and if they ask
"Did you write this note?"
I never gave you any such note, why would I write you a note? Once more she wouldn't be lieing, just misleading. It would depend on how sharp your players are and how well you play it off.
The easiest way to get around Discern Lies is to have the person telling the "lie" believe it to be truth. Discern Lies is basically a magical polygraph. If the person believes what it says to be truth, then it registers as "not a lie".
Also, since the spell is directed at one target per round, make sure to have lies be told in groups. Have someone mention something when (s)he is not a target of the spell.
Another solution is to set the adventure before the cleric can reach level 7 or the paladin to level 10. This may not be possible, but it still might work.
You can also nest the lies inside larger statements. I know this doesn't work with yes/no questions, but it does work well for more open ended questions. Have them lie about inconsequential things when telling the truth (such as, when describing someone, have them say that the handkerchief in his pocket was blue when it was really red) so that when another statement registers as a lie, they will still think that most of it might be truth. Basically, have them always lie about something so that the results of the polygr...er, spell are useless.
You can also give your liars arbitrarily high will saves or they were all equipped with nifty little trinkets that give them help. A(n abusively) literal reading of nondetection requires a caster to pass a caster level check for any divination spell cast against the target. Mind blank explicitly gives immunity to any detection spell, though it is a bit expensive (8th level spell) to be casting on the wait staff. As you mention, modify memory would also work as a fix.
Or there is the "don't use that spell because it just breaks my game" option. This isn't satisfactory for many people and has the potential to upset players but, if you can't think of a story way to fix it, then you just might have to.
My group ran into problems with a murder mystery campaign with just "speak with dead"-ing the corpses to identify the killer. We opted for a shapechanging serial killer.
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That's an interesting suggestion. I will consider it.
What about Undetection? It seems to protect from divination and it mentions the "detect" spells. Does it work against discern lies?
You mean Misdirection? yeah, I would include any ability to discern lies as being covered by that one.
I would say that discern lies would include any kind of verbal or body gestures which would supplement communication. That includes head nodding. No response wouldn't trigger it. Or if the person didn't know they were lying (lycanthrope kills someone and doesn't remember, etc).If it's that critical then you could go with Misdirection (2nd level spell though) or just confuse things by having everyone covering something up, because everyone usually is - in other words too much info. Who cheated on their wife, stole some money, betrayed trust, etc. It shouldn't be that cut an dry for the players to interrogate people (plus it would depend how much authority do they have over these people) to get 100% useful info/truth and could be considered hostile if they take the secret police approach.
Even witchfinders from back in the day needed to navigate some political waters opn who they messed with.
You mean Misdirection? yeah, I would include any ability to discern lies as being covered by that one.
I meant nondetection, but I guess misdirection is a better spell to use, hmmm...
If it's that critical then you could go with Misdirection (2nd level spell though) or just confuse things by having everyone covering something up, because everyone usually is - in other words too much info.
Good idea.
We opted for a shapechanging serial killer.
LOVE IT!
Another trick is to remove the players a step from legit facts. A color-blind stable boy sez he say someone in a brown (blue) coat, a fact known by the killer. Illusionary footfalls cast by the unknown Illusionist, so she can raid the winery. Using a Figurine of Wondrous Power as the murder weapon. All of these, I have used to player frustration.
A shapechanging, serial killer! Sweet!
The easiest way is to have the Lord or Lady of the Keep kick out anyone who goes casting random spells on their people.
Who are the PC's, to those in the keep? Are they important? Are they known at all?
Unless they are extremely well known and have an absolutely squeaky clean reputation they aren't likely to get away with casting spells at a Lord or Lady's people and then point a finger saying "I used magic, it was Col Mustard in the Library with the lead Pipe."
And even with the trust and magic they then have to actually back up the claim somehow.
In short, I'd solve it with RP rather than making up some mechanical reason for the PC's ability not to work.
(though a villain able to enchant people to do deeds without remembering it, could also work..)
-S
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First comes my tip: Before you write an adventure based on mostly solving a mystery, make sure you have read ALL THE CLASS DESCRIPTIONS so that you know that the inquisitor can know when anyone is lying and can wreck every social encounter -_-;
Well, that's not very fair. The Inquisitor is NOT a Pathfinder class, is it?
I don't write modules, but I certainly would never try to read ALL of the class descriptions for all classes ever published by any RPG company. Which is what you implied a module author should do...
Sorry, I didn't mean to be harsh. I realize that was probably tongue-in-cheek, but for some reason it struck a chord for me.
The Inquisitor is one of the classes being playtested for the Advanced Player's Guide.. which makes it a Pathfinder class.
-S
First comes my tip: Before you write an adventure based on mostly solving a mystery, make sure you have read ALL THE CLASS DESCRIPTIONS so that you know that the inquisitor can know when anyone is lying and can wreck every social encounter -_-;Well, that's not very fair. The Inquisitor is NOT a Pathfinder class, is it?
I don't write modules, but I certainly would never try to read ALL of the class descriptions for all classes ever published by any RPG company. Which is what you implied a module author should do...
Sorry, I didn't mean to be harsh. I realize that was probably tongue-in-cheek, but for some reason it struck a chord for me.
The Inquisitor is in the APG and is going to be a pathfinder base class. That said it's not out yet so any adventure currently written or written in the past probably wasn't written by someone that can predict the future.
First comes my tip: Before you write an adventure based on mostly solving a mystery, make sure you have read ALL THE CLASS DESCRIPTIONS so that you know that the inquisitor can know when anyone is lying and can wreck every social encounter -_-;
Now for the questions: Does anyone know a way around this ability?
Never have your villains speak a lie.
I have an adventure that is essentially based around a large mystery in a castle. A summary of the details is a bit too much, but in short EVERYONE in the castle is keeping some kind of secret for one reason or another. While those secrets are meant to be discovered at some point, the Inquisitor can basically figure this out with a simple spellcasting and that is not something I'd like to happen.
Not if they don't talk about them! If they don't speak the lie, that is. Remember, if they're lying, they still have to make a bluff check. They can't just say things that aren't true without making one-- the PCs still get a sense motive check against the bluff, even if it's just misleading-- for instance, a cleric of Norgorber who lives in the church of Pharasma says "I do live in the church of Pharasma, yes" when asked where he lives makes a bluff check with the correct modifiers, and if the PCs make their sense motive, they know something is amiss. Even without discern lies, the Inquisitor would probably know that something is amiss with what people are saying. He has a huge sense motive.
For example if she were to say "enn oh" in response to a question in which "no" would be lying, would it register as she is lying? She could herself view it as being the two letters "N" and "O" pronounced separately thereby not actually being a response to the question asked. While this is certainly an odd way to answer a yes/no it could likely work atleast once. Similarly one could use a "Mmmm..." to say yes without actually saying yes.
Wow. That's just stretching it! Here's something that's less "bag of rats"...
PC: "Do you know who wrote this note?"Maid: "What note?"
PC: "This one."
Maid: "Can I see it?"
~they give her the note
Maid: "Hm. I can check all of the servant's handwriting for you, if you'd like."
PC: "Okay."
She then eats the note.
Later,
PC: "Did you get any results?"
Maid: "Results?"
PC: "On the note."
Maid: "Not yet."
Not a lie-- just misleading. Still part of a sense motive vs. bluff check, to be completely honest, that the inquisitor will probably utterly destroy, even with the maid's bonuses for being believable.
Another way to make this ability less worthwhile to evasive opponents:
PC: "I can tell you're lying!"
Maid: "How so?"
~PC has to justify his ability on his own terms
"I just know when people are lying!", "I have a magical ability that..."
Maid: "When I was a child, I liked to pretend that I was a princess who lived in a magical castle. I'm sorry to hear you haven't given up your delusions."
Sense motive vs. bluff to detect the obvious evasion...
PC: "Hello, skeptical character. I would like to ask you questions."
NPC: "I've heard you have the ability to detect lies in statements."
PC: "Yes, I do have that."
NPC: "I'm a pretty princess and I think you're full of b&~&+#*s." LIE!
PC: "Uh, excuse me?"
NPC: "Continue."
PC: "So on the night of yadda yadda blah blah..."
NPC: "I was in my pumpkin carriage delivering sugar cubes to faeries when I heard a knock on my door. I answered it wearing my fabulous turban from northern Jalmeray and was greeted by Mr. Finch. Mr. Finch was currently inhabiting the body of an enormous salmon, and we spoke for a while about the book we had just read. Afterwards, Mr. Finch and I dug an enormous lake and filled it full of candy canes and happy feelings before he retired to his bedroom. I continued to write at my desk until gigantic flying babboons assaulted me and I was forced to fight them off before falling asleep some time after 10 o'clock."
PC: "I know you have something to hide now!"
NPC: "I think your claims of supernatural prowess are utterly ridiculous and I will not participate in this circus of an investigation until a _real_ detective from the yard appears. Good day, gentlemen."
And then sense motive vs. bluff to detect the obvious evasion.
Remember-- even if the inquisitor can detect lies, that doesn't mean that he can _prove_ that he can do it. Someone has to make a DC24 Knowledge: Arcana check to know that he's got that magical ability-- the maid might, because she's going to have to be a really kick-butt expert to be able to pull some of the bluffs she'll have to make off.
Edit: Can someone cast Modify Memory on himself? (just realized this loophole)
Yes. Another loophole that a very, very intelligent opponent could do is to deafen himself before committing the murder. "I didn't hear anything all night" or "It was a pretty quiet evening." Deafen himself when speaking to the inquisitor-- he reads his lips as he talks, and when he feels that the inquisitor is going to prompt him to lie, he looks away. "I don't know what you're talking about." After the first one that doesn't ping as a lie, the inquisitor will probably assume he's completely innocent.
Where you see a power that completely overruns your campaign idea, I see a power that can be easily abused by the genius villain. On the other hand, don't punish his character for this. On pretty much everyone else, he should be able to detect their lies and piece together what he thinks is the truth. Not everyone is going to be an incredibly talented evasive smooth talker.
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Mysteries where the pcs have access to someone who actually knows the answer but wishes not to inform them has always been very difficult in dnd. This is not new to the inquisitor class. There are plenty of wizard and cleric spells that make this a near impossiblity (zone of truth anyone?). It just isnt a good style of game for pathfinder/dnd to me unless you remove practically the whole divination school of magic. Detect thoughs, discern lies, zone of truth, speak with dead. I mean just a very high sense motive check can throw the whole thing to hell.
Murder mysteries are solved in like 20 minutes
Rogue: Oh no found a dead body...*search*...its the prince!
Paladin: We must find who did this!
Cleric: I'll ask him, Speak with Dead "Who killed you?"
Dead guy: Steve
Wizard: Steve is over there, Get him!
The easiest way is to have the Lord or Lady of the Keep kick out anyone who goes casting random spells on their people.
My answer would be something along those lines. Casting spells on poor, ignorant folk is rude and potentially terrifying. "Aaah! I've been bewitched! Help me!"
Unfortunately the Discern Lies spell isn't one you cast on other people -- it's a buff you cast on yourself.
Unfortunately the Discern Lies spell isn't one you cast on other people -- it's a buff you cast on yourself.
Au contraire, mon frere.
"Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart "
Unfortunately the Discern Lies spell isn't one you cast on other people -- it's a buff you cast on yourself.Au contraire, mon frere.
"Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart "
Alright not my day for this apparently. What spell do I have this confused with, because I was fairly sure there was something that did this as a self directed buff... maybe I'm remembering an earlier version of the spell...
Trauma - where the mind intentially blocks or erases a certain event always help, or the person responds in a language no one understands, insanity or mulitple personalites, magic wards, etc. may all help as a series of defenses to make information much harder to obtain. You can always confuse events as a series of independent actions from different players, that all came together as the perfect storm.
Also possession by a spirit or otherwordly creature, where the inhabitant has no knowledge (or it is really fuzzy) of what occured can really take them for a ride.
You could always do something like, she writes the note and has the stable boy slip it under their door at night.
Then when the party asks her.
"Did you give us this note?"
she can tell them no and it would be true, and if they ask
"Did you write this note?"
I never gave you any such note, why would I write you a note? Once more she wouldn't be lieing, just misleading. It would depend on how sharp your players are and how well you play it off.
I think this style of misdirrection is the best. The inquisitor only gets a few rounds of discern lies per day, so they can't even ask all 6 people in 1 day. Make sure they know how many rounds each question is taking. Its a really strong ability, but if they waste 2 rounds on things like this, then they get worried about their limited resources. Make sure there are a bunch of times they want to use the ability, and make sure it pays off at least once, but don't have it be a game changing time, just a really useful one.
Keep in mind that they can also use sense motive to do much of what discern lies will give them, and the inquisitor should have a really good bonus to that.