So I'm running my first session on Sunday, everyone has told me what classes they are interested in
Fighter, Sorc, Rogue and Monk.
I've already got lots of advise on dealing with the lack of healer, and I dont see that as being a problem.
Was talking with the rogue today and the sorc, and they are to say the least 'concerned' for the monk. They have been playing 1st ed for years and even though monk is very different in PF from 1ed they still believe he will be underpowered and will be a liability at early levels based on the PF Core rulebook.
Neither of them are sure exactly 'what' a monk is supposed to do, nor am I, nor is the monk.
Fighters = tank, rogues = DPS + traps, sorc DPS + utility, monk = ???
the monks rolls were as follows:
Str: 16 (+3)
Wis: 15 (+2)
Dex: 14 (+2)
Con = 12 (+1)
Int = 9 (-1)
Cha = 7 (-2)
I read http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/archives/monksATreantmonkGuideOptimization&page=1&source =search#0
Most of it sounds reasonable, but its putting the monk mostly as a dps roll. With this group we have dps (rogue rolled 18 dex + 2 racial) and there isn't (yet) a plethora of healing to help the 1st lv monk with his 14ac, so I don't think he should be up there trading punches, im thinking more of stunning firsts + tripping + disarming + grapple and in general helping to control the fights more then dish out the damage.
thoughts on some good ways for this monk to be helpful and not a liability with this specific group configuration.
PS: "Monks suck, make him take a different class" isn't helpful. He wants to play monk, as GM i want to let him, and I will modify things as required to make his game experience fun if required.
Click the link.
Click the link.
I've read his guide and the thread, which is why i quoted it in my initial post :P Like i said before, that guide is mostly designed to create a monk asking the question "How does this choice help the damage and/or combat maneuver problem", which may not be ideal with this group configuration.
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Click the link.
He said he's already read that...
Sounds like the Monk might want to think about 2 things(that I can think of)
1) Stick close to the Sorc and flurry with Shurikens or use a light crossbow, javelins, daggers, or a sling to fight from a distance.
2) Flank with the Fighter or the Rogue.
He also qualifies for the Dodge feat, which will up his AC ups by 1.
unfortunately the monk is too spread in his stats to be a stand up tripper/disarmer. He will just fall behind fast. Its sad but the best tripper is a raging barb, not a monk. If you try he might be ok at it for a while, but eventually he'll step into the world of mediocrity. Treantmonk didnt pigeonhole the monk lightly, he did it because he had to. The monk can be pretty good at doing damage. Try to force anything else, and he'll feel really luke warm against other optimized characters.
Feats:
(Human bonus)Martial Weapon Proficiency - Glaive
(1st level)Toughness
(Monk 1)Dodge
1d10+4 damage with 10ft reach/3X critical. The monk still threatens close squares
More HP
Better AC
If the player is used to 1st edition and is STILL willing to try the monk, he is going to be blown away by is awesome powers.
Be generous about allowing his fists/ gauntlets/ shinwraps/ magic jockstrap to be enchanted.
I'm playing a half-orc monk right now. I should qualify by saying I'm using several feats from outside pathfinder core, mostly stuff from Sandstorm. At low levels, though, I was straight out of the book. My AC was 16 at first level, I think, which was ok but not high for our group, and my con is only 10, so my hit points were low. My strategy until I gained improved grapple and the maneuver bonus was to charge with a great ax, which gave me a +2 to hit and let me do 1d12 +6 damage. If that failed, I might stand there for a round and see if I was damaged. If damaged, I'd withdraw, and if not, I'd flurry on the next round. This kept me alive through 2 levels, at which point I took feats that let me grapple better and get a free grapple check on each unarmed attack. I haven't figured out how to overcome dimension door/freedom of movement at higher levels, but at level 5 I'm the frontline for the group.
What human sub-race is he? You could try making a cool background and personality... ;)
Sometimes that's all you've got!
jh
Its sad but the best tripper is a raging barb,
@Kolokotroni Could you expand on why/how to enhance that? It fits very much with the concept behind my human barbarian. If you prefer to contact me off the thread I understand so as not to hijack this thread.
What is a monk supposed to do?
Monks are a great 5th wheel. If battles are won by being 'fustest with the mostest' then you are the fustest. Be the mobile reserve, go where you are needed to help tip the scales.
If you hadn't already put the high score in Str, I might've reccomended tossing TM's guide out the window and going the classic route-pump dex and wis, pick up agile maneuvers, put a 13 into Str (and maybe Int), and focus on hit-and-run combat maneuvers.
Pick up deadly aim and throw shurikens when you get bored of bull-rushing or tripping or whatever. Grapple whenever someone so much as says the WORD "spell", because let's face it, it IS your best option.
And finally, max out stealth/perception and join the rogue on his scouting missions; between the two of you, you could take out targets of opportunity without reporting back. With high dex and wis, and a sorc to hit you with Mage Armor, you've got badass AC. The only thing you don't do is much damage per hit, so run around behind the guy and set up the flank for your roguey buddy. Come to think of it, with healing low, setting up flanks for the rogue so HE doesn't have to strand himself behind enemy lines with his significantly lower AC is going to be EXTREMELY helpful. I recommend fighting defensively a lot.
This ... is the monks job. The monk makes the best flank partner for a rogue. Not only can they do a lot of damage, they have stunning fist for when the rogue cannot get a good flank, or for keeping said creature in place. The monk is designed to tumble past opponents, to use combat maneuvers against those opponents (go go temple swords), and make it easier for the rogue.
I would also say that the monk gets the most out of strength, so you might want to consider pumping that strength up some more, using your racial bonus there (edit: on second glance it seems you've done as much as you can). By 10th level your monk should pick up Medusa's Wrath and have something like 7 attacks per round on a full attack (not counting haste if the sorcerer casts that). Each one of those attacks uses that strength bonus.
Consider letting your monk pick up that monster feat that lets him add +2 to the DC of a special ability (stunning fist in this case). If the monk is on the front lines a lot, he may also want Toughness as having a d8 HD does leave you a little wanting when troll barbarians start attacking you 2-3 at a time.
Neither of them are sure exactly 'what' a monk is supposed to do, nor am I, nor is the monk.
Fighters = tank, rogues = DPS + traps, sorc DPS + utility, monk = ???the monks rolls were as follows:
Str: 16 (+3)
Wis: 15 (+2)
Dex: 14 (+2)
Con = 12 (+1)
Int = 9 (-1)
Cha = 7 (-2)
With a good feat selection, your Monk could easily become a wrestling machine in a couple of levels.
At first level, you can take Improved Grapple as a Monk bonus feat; with your scores, his CMB/CMD would be +3(+5 vs Grapple)/17. With a +5 at first level, and a CMD 17, very few creatures would escape your Grapple*; from the second round still in grapple, the CMB would gain an additional +5, giving him a +10 check to actively harm your foe, and still a CMD 17 for your foe to escape your grapples.
* An Orc has a CMB +4 and CMD 14, meaning the Monk would need only a 9+ to grapple him in the first place, and a 4+ to keep him grappled from round 2 on; the Orc would need a 13+ to free himself up (a Goblin would be totally helpless, with 0 CMB and 12 CMD...); even a CR1 Goblin Dog has only a CMB+2 (15+ to free himself) and a 14 CMD (same as Orc).
At third level, his CMB would rise, using the Monk level as a 'virtual BaB' instead of his 3/4 BaB. His values would be +6(+8 vs Grapple)/19 (the CMD uses the real BaB, not the improved one; however, the Wis bonus gives a huge boon).
At fourth level, the CMD becomes very high, thanks to the AC bonus (which is added), and I suggest a Wisdom increase (which would beneft AC, Stunning Fist, KI points, and CMD). CMB +7 (+9 Grapple), CMD 22.
At 9th level, thanks to his 'natural' BaB +6, the Monk would be eligible for Greater Grapple - meaning two possible grapple checks per round and an additional +2 to Grapple. Since at 8th level, whatever increase you have made didn't change the bonus on Str, Dex, or Wis (being odd scores), the values would be CMB +12 (+16 Grapple), CMD 26. This without considering enhancement bonuses to his scores (either temporary ones with potions, or permanent ones with Belts/ Headbands)
Since we are speaking of mid levels, the Monk could have taken either Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, or Improved Trip at 6th level. With his scores, Imp. Bull Rush would be a better choice (since with the investment of Power Attack could lead to the Greater Bull Rush feat, allowing the Monk to push foes through the rest of the party and allowing them to AoO it), but even a simple Imp.Disarm or Imp.Trip could be good (obviously, a less powerful trick than his Grapple).
Other feats should be Toughness (for compensating the low hp), Power Attack (for more damage on Flurry), and of course Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strikes); another very good choice could be Dodge (a flat +1 AC is always good, and it ADDS to the CMD !!!) and Combat Reflexes. And yes, Medusa's Wrath at 10th level is a must (especially with a good hitter like your Str-based Monk).
I have a player whose character is a Monk with a different build than yours (Dex-based), so he basically had to use all his 1st level feats (Monk feat, Human feat, 1st level feat) to be able to do the same - his damage is obviously lower (he is a 25-point build with STR 13 and Dex 19), but his Grapple was immediately a beast (Weapon Finesse for striking, Agile Maneuvers for CMB, Improved Grapple), and his AC higher (16 at first level without Dodge)...
In my vision, the Monk should be the CMB machine, capable of moving around the battlefield hampering the foes for his fellow companions (pinned foe = free Sneak Attacks from the Rogue). With your scores, he is also capable of doing a good damage if paired with an Amulet of Mighty Fists (basically as a Two-Weapon fighter) if not moving around.
Just my 2c.
TreantMonk ofcoz has the excellent DPR guide that you've read. Apart from that, keep in mind that:
- monks do bring decent DPR to the table
- monks make excellent all-rounders
- monks are highly mobile
- monks are very good disablers (stun, trip, disarm, grapple)
- Fergie's excellent suggestion to use a glaive is spot-on; the monk can still flurry at close, and use reach to party's advantage
A poster above said that monks are okay-to-subpar at combat maneuvers. With all due respect, he is mistaken. Yes, for any given one attempt a barbarian has a better CMB check - but trips and disarms may be attempted instead of attacks; meaning a monk from level 4 onwards has 3 attempts at fullBAB(-2) to make a trip/disarm land (and his lower iterative attacks can still get lucky with a natural 20).
So I'm running my first session on Sunday, everyone has told me what classes they are interested in
Fighter, Sorc, Rogue and Monk.
I've already got lots of advise on dealing with the lack of healer, and I dont see that as being a problem.Was talking with the rogue today and the sorc, and they are to say the least 'concerned' for the monk. They have been playing 1st ed for years and even though monk is very different in PF from 1ed they still believe he will be underpowered and will be a liability at early levels based on the PF Core rulebook.
Neither of them are sure exactly 'what' a monk is supposed to do, nor am I, nor is the monk.
Fighters = tank, rogues = DPS + traps, sorc DPS + utility, monk = ???the monks rolls were as follows:
Str: 16 (+3)
Wis: 15 (+2)
Dex: 14 (+2)
Con = 12 (+1)
Int = 9 (-1)
Cha = 7 (-2)I read http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/archives/monksATreantmonkGuideOptimization&page=1&source =search#0
Most of it sounds reasonable, but its putting the monk mostly as a dps roll. With this group we have dps (rogue rolled 18 dex + 2 racial) and there isn't (yet) a plethora of healing to help the 1st lv monk with his 14ac, so I don't think he should be up there trading punches, im thinking more of stunning firsts + tripping + disarming + grapple and in general helping to control the fights more then dish out the damage.
thoughts on some good ways for this monk to be helpful and not a liability with this specific group configuration.
PS: "Monks suck, make him take a different class" isn't helpful. He wants to play monk, as GM i want to let him, and I will modify things as required to make his game experience fun if required.
Well .. are you allowing some WotC stuff into the game, or no? Honestly, more than any class - a monk can benefit from allowing a few feats in (w/out going crazy with some of the insane feats from 3rd parties, and some of the even crazier stuff like vows).
I've always looked at Monks like the unarmed/martial arts guys - Jackie Chan and such. However, after reading Treantmonk's guide, I've looked at a new option - Bolo Young you know, that big, beefy typically "bad" guy from Enter the Dragon (amongst other movies). Guy is a TANK! To me, if you follow Treantmonk's guide, then the only "good" option for a martial arts guy in PF core is the Bolo Young. You're PC looks to be following that move/advice, and ... if you sink everything into strength, it's going to hurt eventually because his AC is going to suck forever. He'll have too many stat's to try and keep up (Dex and Wis for both AC and skills - very important, especially as a secondary scout-like character to help the rogue out - which I think is a great idea; and then Str for his to hit and damage).
Now, I've an idea and it's carried me through for the more classic Jackie Chan/Jet Li/Bruce Lee types of martial guys. This involves using 1 feat from 3.5's Book of Exalted Deeds (yes, also called "exalted cheese"). While typically a lot of things are just off from that book, Intuitive Strike is not overly powerful, and is a sister-feat to the likes of Weapon Finesse. In short, it lets you exchange your Wis modifier for Str modifier for making attacks. So, if you want to NOT be a beefy unarmed guy (because, you know, you are not defining yourself by your muscle mass and don't want to be a Bolo Young type of guy), then this one feat will allow you to put your best scores towards Dex and Wis, with a small bit of Con for good measure to keep you living longer - in general. Dex is good as it goes into many areas of importance (ref saves, skill checks, and AC) - this is true of anyone. Wis, with this feat for a monk, is important and becomes your ability of focus due to everything you get from it (will saves, skill checks, AC, Stunning Fist effects, and w/the feat "to hit" bonuses).
Now, if you allow just this one feat for monks in your game, you can open up an *almost* fighter, sorcerer or wizard-like single stat focus for them and their advancement/development. The Wis stat will become the stat that helps them "do their thing best" for the most part (to hit for their melee presence - a focus of the class, and DC's for special abilities). It's one feat, doesn't overpower anything, mimics an existing feat (weapon finesse), and lets you create at least one more viable archetype of character other than the "Bolo Young" of Treantmonk's suggestions that the monk be built exactly as a fighter.
Ranged combat will still be a problem, BUT if you allow the monk to take the PHBII feats of "Fiery Fist" and it's chain, by 8th level Monk's can get the "Ki Blast" feat and now it's Ken and Ryu time, baby! {ranged touch attack of 3d6+wis modifier by burning 2 stunning fist uses}
Oh, a final note - if multi-classing is an option; a monk makes an excellent duelist. Either with a monk-piercing weapon, or (preferred) with Hamatulatsu (from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting).
I've seen a great example of a Pathfindered Swashbuckler couple with a Monk, Kung Fu Genius and Unorthodox Flurry. Ouch.
You've been given some good advice above... so I'm just going to expand on it a bit.
The player not having an idea what he wants his/her Monk character to do... Why did 'he' pick a Monk if he doesn't have a concept of the character's role?
Given the composition of your party, the best role he can take (so as to step on the least toes), is the 2nd fighter/interceptor with an additional role as backup rogue or possibly the lead 'climber' rogue since his STR should be superior which modifies climbing. And a well tuned monk is a better 2nd fighter than a rogue... unless the rogue has Weapon Finesse (so his DEX increases his ATT - but notably that doesn't affect his DAM), 2 Weapon Fighting (so he strikes as often as the monk with FOB at low levels), and has a high enough STR to amp up his damage sufficiently. Moreover, a rogue who is acting as a front-line fighter (defending the sorcerer or taking baddies head-on) is going to get fewer opportunities to backstab, flank, etc. which is really what he should be doing. Being pinned down in front of badbguys while you are in light armor is generally not good.
If you, as DM, think the monk's stats, etc. are too weak to do the job - then I've got two suggestions:
1. Fudge his stats a bit to make him better - jump his STR to 18 and maybe bump his DEX or WIS a point.
2. Tweak his class - if you aren't averse to adopting something from 3.5E... there was an obscure build called the 'Martial Monk' or something like that. He loses a skill rank per level (so 3+INT/lv instead of 4+INT), loses both Know:Religion and Know:History, but gains Intimidate and (more importantly) the ability to take any Fighter Only combat feats at the appropriate level as either Monk Feats or regular feats... so Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, etc. If he puts all those Feats into his unarmed strike or a single Monk-only weapon that he can flurry with - he becomes a nasty little fighter.