Shurikan are treated as ammunition for enchanting. etc.
So making magic shurikan of munchkiness +1 Holy Returning costs 32000gps for 50 or 640gps each. Just seems a bit OTT. Gut feeling says this is too much but head says its okay. Which is right!
Isn't magic ammunition destroyed on a hit?
It is. Shuriken are one-use only.
Isn't magic ammunition destroyed on a hit?
Missed that!
Happy GM. Unhappy player if he tries it.Thanks people.
Isn't magic ammunition destroyed on a hit?Missed that!
Happy GM. Unhappy player if he tries it.
Thanks people.
Problem, though - you've allowed "returning" to be applied to it. You've let the player pay the additional costs, and now you're denying the ability of the weapon to take place.
Making shuriken "ammunition" and subject to the destroyed on a hit rules just doesn't fit - at all. It's tantamount to saying "your dagger explodes on impact" and clearly, this is not the case. At least with arrows and bolts, you've got the problems of retrieval and breakage - seems reasonable enough.
IMO, shuriken should just be treated as any other "thrown" weapon. Sure, there's the ammo-cost break, but it's NOT ammunition, nor should it be destroyed if tossed and successfully striking something. If the monk wants to roll over and pick up their shuriken, let 'em. If it's been enchanted with a quality that SPECIFICALLY RETURNS to the hand of the user as a free action, then that should over-rule "ammunition" as a magical quality is certainly more important than a mundane one, IMO.
Terrible rule, IMO - likely only put in place because of the low damage rating given to the shuriken in the first place (ie: an attempt to cut some slack to those that would use them).
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Problem, though - you've allowed "returning" to be applied to it. You've let the player pay the additional costs, and now you're denying the ability of the weapon to take place.
Making shuriken "ammunition" and subject to the destroyed on a hit rules just doesn't fit - at all. It's tantamount to saying "your dagger explodes on impact" and clearly, this is not the case. At least with arrows and bolts, you've got the problems of retrieval and breakage - seems reasonable enough.
IMO, shuriken should just be treated as any other "thrown" weapon. Sure, there's the ammo-cost break, but it's NOT ammunition, nor should it be destroyed if tossed and successfully striking something. If the monk wants to roll over and pick up their shuriken, let 'em. If it's been enchanted with a quality that SPECIFICALLY RETURNS to the hand of the user as a free action, then that should over-rule "ammunition" as a magical quality is certainly more important than a mundane one, IMO.
Terrible rule, IMO - likely only put in place because of the low damage rating given to the shuriken in the first place (ie: an attempt to cut some slack to those that would use them).
The returning benefit applies on a miss, where there is a 50% chance of the shuriken surviving.
Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown.
Terrible rule, IMO - likely only put in place because of the low damage rating given to the shuriken in the first place (ie: an attempt to cut some slack to those that would use them).
Remember that the shuriken is also the only way for a monk to apply his flurry ability at range, i.e. high level monks can throw a lot of shuriken, with each one getting full damage bonus. Non-monks probably would not use it anyway - I cannot see anyone taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (shuriken).
But you are right, yes, it is weird that shuriken are considered ammunition. But it is the rule, and we have to work within the rules. So it makes no sense at all to create a returning shuriken.
None of this has happened yet. I'm just getting ready in case it does!.
Rules say that generally speaking ammunition hiting is rendered useless and has a 50% chance of being lost and destroyed if they miss.
Shuriken are treated as ammunition for drawing, magicing and what happens to them after they have been thrown
So the question comes about from the single word "generally" in the blurb about ammunition. Are shuriken the ammunition which that word relates too?
Arrows and quarrels: Yep get that.
Sling bullets/stones: Sort of understand that, shattering on impact or squishing but adamantine bullets squishing?
Shuriken: again doesn't really meake sense. I throw a sharp pointy bit of steel/adamantine and it sticks into squishy ogre and is destroyed? I don't get that.
Under magic ammunition it states specifically arrows, crossbow bolts and sling bullets as being destroyed on a hit and 50% on a miss. No mention of shuriken implying that they don't get destroyed, etc. when used. I'm edging towards shuriken being the exception to the breakage rule.
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It looks downright perplexing if the shuriken is made of adamantine. A disk made of one of the strongest metals known shattering like fine china against a stone wall. This even happens against the gelatinous cube, the softest of monsters, whose acid doesn't affect metal.
There is also the alchemical process in Elves of Golarion that makes ammunition durable, that is, it does not break when used, except when specifically targetted for destruction.
Magic is still expended, but the arrows/bolts are still MW ammunition that can be re-enchanted.
I take a page out of Pirates of the Carribbean for my games (Ie: "The rules are more like guidelines than rules, darlin'!"), so no - I don't operate within the rules.
I make the rules fit for my sensibilities as a GM first, and the players "fun factor" second - screw the rules. ;-p
BUT - if you're a stickler for rules, then yes - "returning" ammunition should simply not be allowed as it's a foolish option if making a ranged ammunition in the first place.
Exceptions should be made for things like the adamantine "bullet" fired from a sling, and the like. (good call, too - whoever mentioned it), so this strange 'ammo explodes on impact' is a pretty terrible rule overall, IMO.
What was wrong with keeping 2e's 50% chance of retrieval from the body of any struck target? I'm fine w/a 50/50 shot of pulling an arrow/bolt out of a body (living or otherwise). Making any "ammo" just disappear forever on impact? What the hell? Is it "cased" arrowheads with gunpowder packed into the shafts or something??? That'd at least make more sense (ie: no problem with this for modern settings and cased ammo - no more case = can't use the projectile).
But when you're ammo is "primitive tech" it really rings foul (always had for me, honestly, since 3.x first made the shift from 2e's default). Stones/bullets can be retrieved easily enough (ie: spot check if you REALLY want to play out hunting ammo down), if not embedded in a skull somewhere (fishing for rocks in a brain ... yippee!!!), and same for shuriken.
On monk specific/3.x/PF front:
Shuriken are a monk-specific ranged weapon.
It does terrible damage (even with a strong monk, how much is he likely to actually dedicate to strength when Wis is key to many features and skills, as well as Dex already. He's melee, so he needs Con ... a flurry of 1d2 shuriken really isn't going to impress ANYONE even if there's 6 of 'em coming at you.)
It has terrible range. {ie: massive range penalties}
Outside of shuriken, monk's really don't have much to help out at a distance ... at ALL.
Why screw the monk even more by making his magic shuriken disappear on him?
I take a page out of Pirates of the Carribbean for my games (Ie: "The rules are more like guidelines than rules, darlin'!"), so no - I don't operate within the rules.
I make the rules fit for my sensibilities as a GM first, and the players "fun factor" second - screw the rules. ;-p
BUT - if you're a stickler for rules, then yes - "returning" ammunition should simply not be allowed as it's a foolish rule.
Exceptions should be made for things like the adamantine "bullet" fired from a sling, and the like. (good call, too - whoever mentioned it), so this strange 'ammo explodes on impact' is a pretty terrible rule overall, IMO.
What was wrong with keeping 2e's 50% chance of retrieval from the body of any struck target? I'm fine w/a 50/50 shot of pulling an arrow/bolt out of a body (living or otherwise). Making any "ammo" just disappear forever on impact? What the hell? Is it "cased" arrowheads with gunpowder packed into the shafts or something??? That'd at least make more sense (ie: no problem with this for modern settings and cased ammo - no more case = can't use the projectile).
But when you're ammo is "primitive tech" it really rings foul (always had for me, honestly, since 3.x first made the shift from 2e's default). Stones/bullets can be retrieved easily enough (ie: spot check if you REALLY want to play out hunting ammo down), if not embedded in a skull somewhere (fishing for rocks in a brain ... yippee!!!), and same for shuriken.
On monk specific/3.x/PF front:
Shuriken are a monk-specific ranged weapon.
It does terrible damage (even with a strong monk, how much is he likely to actually dedicate to strength when Wis is key to many features and skills, as well as Dex already. He's melee, so he needs Con ... a flurry of 1d2 shuriken really isn't going to impress ANYONE even if there's 6 of 'em coming at you.)
It has terrible range. {ie: massive range penalties}
Outside of shuriken, monk's really don't have much to help out at a distance ... at ALL.Why screw the monk even more by...
I totally agree with you but I want to see if RAW will allow it anyway. The statement regarding ammunition being destroyed or whatever specificly mentions arrows, crossbow bolts and sling bullets but not the ammunition-like shuriken. And in the equipment section it states generally ammunition is destroyed, etc.
I am just trying to clarify the situation before it rops up in game. Even if I just houseruled it in would it be OTT anyway?
Partially the point of my observation was just that - leave it as NOT ammunition in the first place. Probably up the damage a bit, and it's *slightly* more reasonable. Or, given the terrible damage, let it still get the price reduction. :shrugs:
That's hardly "balance" at all. How many people are buying many magic arrows vs. magic bows? Why bother with 1 arrow (or 50) when if you enchant the weapon itself, it applies the enchantment to every piece of ammo?
On that front, why not make a "Monk's Sash" item that just specifically works like a bow or crossbow and simply *makes* whatever it fires "magical" if you're taking that stance?
If anything, the way ranged weapons and ammo are being treated seems to be where the "balance" issue comes from.
In 2e, the "dagger of returning" could be used to attack with whatever extra attacks you had (if a fighting class), why is this now not a part of "returning"? Why does that have to wait until the end of the round and in the same place only?
That's where the changes took place, and THOSE changes seem to be favoring "realism" over balance. Hell - you've got a *MAGIC* weapon that comes back to you ... what's, the little internal GPS function of the magic on the fritz if you take a 5' step?
Pfft!
EDIT: I did read treeantmonks' guide - good stuff. Does this mean it's right for every game? No. He's only worked out "core" options. What if you play (like I do) with 3.x as well - you know "backwards compatible" stuff? There's a feat that allows monks to use Wis mod in place of str for combat modifications. Just use that, and str becomes irrelevant for a monk build. It's an interesting take to say that monks are simply fighters ... but it's only a take.
Can we please stop batting around realism on a balance issue? If shuriken were not destroyed on impact, making them cost as much to enchant as ammunition would be broken, because it would allow you to buy a full attack actions worth of throwing weapons for a fraction of the cost of a single magic weapon (2% per attack in the action, so probably typically 8-14%).
I don't think the problem is about realism but about how the rules are worded and interpreted. Well for me anyway.
Rules say that generally speaking ammunition hiting is rendered useless and has a 50% chance of being lost and destroyed if they miss.
Shuriken are treated as ammunition for drawing, magicing and what happens to them after they have been thrown
So the question comes about from the single word "generally" in the blurb about ammunition. Are shuriken the ammunition which that word relates too?
Under magic ammunition it states specifically arrows, crossbow bolts and sling bullets as being destroyed on a hit and 50% on a miss. No mention of shuriken implying that they don't get destroyed, etc. when used.
I don't think the problem is about realism but about how the rules are worded and interpreted. Well for me anyway.
Rules say that generally speaking ammunition hiting is rendered useless and has a 50% chance of being lost and destroyed if they miss.
Shuriken are treated as ammunition for drawing, magicing and what happens to them after they have been thrown
So the question comes about from the single word "generally" in the blurb about ammunition. Are shuriken the ammunition which that word relates too?
Under magic ammunition it states specifically arrows, crossbow bolts and sling bullets as being destroyed on a hit and 50% on a miss. No mention of shuriken implying that they don't get destroyed, etc. when used.
For the most part, I'm w/Spacelard in looking for rules clarification.
At the same time, I'm not beyond hand-waving 'nonsense' in my games the minute it ceases to hold up or satisfy my aesthetics.
Well, while I disagree that the word "generally" is meant to leave that much leeway, its not a point worth arguing. It is only for the balance reasons I stated above, that I believe it makes sense to have shuriken be as fragile as magic ammunition. I agree it makes no aesthetic sense; with respect to sling bullets, too. And how about blowgun darts? But again. The problem is, if they weren't destroyed on impact, they would be too powerful.
Yea loads of quick posts going on!
Under magic ammunition it states specifically arrows, crossbow bolts and sling bullets as being destroyed on a hit and 50% on a miss. No mention of shuriken implying that they don't get destroyed, etc. when used. This bit needs clarification. Is it just arrows, bolts and bullets as stated?And I will add to that blowgun darts, slivers of steel?
The pharse "generally hitting are 50% usless" could mean an arrow slapping into an ooze or certain types of ammunition are not included, this needs a bit of clarification.
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Another thought: (house rule, not RAW)
Enchanting ammunition is different then enchanting thrown/melee weapons. The magic on ammunition is designed to release itself in one burst, while reusable weapons are designed for sustained use. This is why you get 50 arrows, but only one sword. The "traditional" way of enchanting shrunken is as ammunition, as it fits they way they are used. You -could- enchant one with the sustainable magics (and get only one for the price) and it would be as sturdy and re-usable as a throwing axe. Might be worth having one or two sturdy ones and a bunch of ammo.
My thoughts on a RAW for returning ammunition is you get your misses back, hits are destroyed. Not worth using IMHO, but not illegal.
YMMV, check with your GM, etc...
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Early 3e question to 3e D&D staff at Gen Con, back when shuriken didn't count as ammo for magic properties:
Dude: Because I can throw multiple shuriken in a round, does that mean my monk can get a bunch of +1 flaming shuriken and throw them in one round?
Me: Yes, at the cost of 8,300 gp each. At three attacks per round, that's almost 25,000 gp you're literally throwing at your enemy. It's probably more cost effective to just bribe the enemy to surrender.
If someone wants returning shuriken, let them... but make the shuriken non-expendable and make the PC pay full price for each one (not ammo price). And remember if the thrower isn't in the same square at the start of his next turn when the weapons return, they fall to the ground and sit there... assuming nobody picks them up, or you're not in a river, or....
Early 3e question to 3e D&D staff at Gen Con, back when shuriken didn't count as ammo for magic properties:
Yep, but in PF they are counted as ammo.
Under magic ammunition it states specifically arrows, crossbow bolts and sling bullets as being destroyed on a hit and 50% on a miss. No mention of shuriken implying that they don't get destroyed, etc. when used. This bit needs clarification.Is it just arrows, bolts and bullets as stated?
Mirror Mirror has already brought up the "broken" condition and interaction with make whole spell so the point might be moot.
Daggers arent counted as ammunition for throwing purposes, so you get those back.
Shurikens on the other hand I can understand the game balance rule for "why" they are counted as ammunition even though I cant picture an adamantine shuriken breaking on impact.
If people wanted magical shurikens that didnt break, then they should be restricted that every shuriken have its own cost as a magic weapon in its own right, and not counted as part of a bundle of 50 as per usual ammunition rules. But since they ARE considered ammunition, it allows you to get a fairly big bundle for your money. Odds are the character using them isnt going to rely on these being his primary attack.
BUT, if you absolutely had to have magical shurikens, and your GM allows it, have them made of Frystalline from the Book Of Exalted Deeds which allows a sundered or broken item made of the substance to be reformed by simply touching the pieces together again (I think this is the one, not 100% sure but there is a material in the book that does this purpose).
The problem I see overall is that while they count as Ammunition, people dont want their hard earned GP going to some destructable item. Then again its wrong to want something that you could get 50 of in a purchase of magical shurikens and only want say...5 of them, which means your getting that big enchanted weapon at 10% of the cost. Especially if your reclaiming all those shurikens after a fight.
End result people should do one of two things...
1.) Make shurikens individually enchanted items, like ordinary weapons, then they arent destroyed on impact. (This changes how it works as ammunition in regards to how many you get when you buy them but also prevents them breaking, which is good game balance)
2.) Make shurikens easier to recover, I could imagine someone inventing a ammunition ability that increases the odds of or guarantees the survival of the ammunition (I think a +1 ability for a 50% recovery rate even if it hits, +2 for 75% and +3 for 100%). That would be a worthwhile investment.
End result people should do one of two things...
1.) Make shurikens individually enchanted items, like ordinary weapons, then they arent destroyed on impact. (This changes how it works as ammunition in regards to how many you get when you buy them but also prevents them breaking, which is good game balance)
2.) Make shurikens easier to recover, I could imagine someone inventing a ammunition ability that increases the odds of or guarantees the survival of the ammunition (I think a +1 ability for a 50% recovery rate even if it hits, +2...
You know ... short of changing rules outright, I kind of like this idea best so far.
Nice! :-D
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Funny.
I used to throw shuriken a lot. I was way into martial arts and along the way I experimented with, and recieved professional training with, a number of traditional martial arts weapons. Fun times.
I never broke a shurien.
I had big ones, bigger than my hand. I had small ones, not much larger than a U.S. quarter. I had sizes all in between. I threw them at trees, hay bales, my garage, anythiing I could find, really.
One time, in my high school, we were playing with one of the smaller, more delicate shuriken. We were in the school library of all places and like proper little hoodlums, we had no respect for the property of others, especially the propery of the school. So we were throwing the shurken at the pictures of presidents mounted on the stone wall. Yeah, I know. Very bad us...
We missed a lot. That shurken stuck in the stone every time. Cinder block, really. Sometimes we hit a picture, in which case the shurken passed through the flimsy backing and stuck into the stone. A few times we had to use pliers (thank you, Swiss Army knife) to yank the shuriken out of the stone.
That shuriken never broke. Didn't even really dull the points much.
So unless we're throwing our shurken at a pool of lava, it seems very unlikely to me that there is much chance that a D&D/Pathfinder shuriken should break on impact with flesh, and 50% on missing flesh to hit the ground, or trees, or even a stone wall behind the target.
Of course, that's real life and has nothing to do with the silly RAW. As for me, I play it this way:
Shuriken are created, magical or otherwise, just like daggers. They are real weapons that can be retrieved after combat. They are not ammunition.
However, small throwing weapons like shuriken, daggers, throwing axes, etc., can be temporarily enchanted in bunches by casting Magic Weapon (or any other weapon-enchanting spell) on them. For this purpose only, I treat them as ammunition.
Again, not RAW, but it seems to adequately merge my real-life experience with shuriken with my understanding of the crafting/magic item creation/combat system of this game.
Is there a feat to catch and pocket the things and sell them later ;)Me: Yes, at the cost of 8,300 gp each. At three attacks per round, that's almost 25,000 gp you're literally throwing at your enemy. It's probably more cost effective to just bribe the enemy to surrender.
Actually, there is! Snatch arrows.
(fishing for rocks in a brain ... yippee!!!)
Man, I hated junior high.
Creative Director
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There's a few reasons shurikens are treated as ammo.
1) They do very little damage, so letting the user throw a lot of them in a round is good (treated as ammo, you get your full iterative attacks with them).
2) They are pretty tiny and unlike most thrown weapons they can't be used as melee weapons.
3) We wanted to give them an interesting mechanic so that they'd feel a bit different and, well, exotic, compared to other thrown weapons.
Placing the returning quality on a shuriken is technically possible, but it's kind of a waste of money since a magic shuriken is indeed destroyed when it hits. The returning aspect only kicks in if you miss. But part of the point of the returning quality is that it lets you get back your expensive thrown weapon so you can use it again, and so you don't lose it. Magic shurikens are so cheap since they're ammo that you don't really NEED returning on it. Put some other magic quality on it instead and just get a stack of them.
If you're looking for a larger throwing-star type weapon that works as an actual thrown weapon and would be able to fully utilize the returning quality, you should pick up a starknife. That's more or less what I invented them to be back in the day in my homebrew game—to be biggie-sized throwing stars that combine the cool of shurikens and boomerangs. (Yes, in my homebrew, normal starknifes return like boomerangs when thrown... that bit got edited out in print.)
There's a few reasons shurikens are treated as ammo.
1) They do very little damage, so letting the user throw a lot of them in a round is good (treated as ammo, you get your full iterative attacks with them).
2) They are pretty tiny and unlike most thrown weapons they can't be used as melee weapons.
3) We wanted to give them an interesting mechanic so that they'd feel a bit different and, well, exotic, compared to other thrown weapons.
Placing the returning quality on a shuriken is technically possible, but it's kind of a waste of money since a magic shuriken is indeed destroyed when it hits. The returning aspect only kicks in if you miss. But part of the point of the returning quality is that it lets you get back your expensive thrown weapon so you can use it again, and so you don't lose it. Magic shurikens are so cheap since they're ammo that you don't really NEED returning on it. Put some other magic quality on it instead and just get a stack of them.
If you're looking for a larger throwing-star type weapon that works as an actual thrown weapon and would be able to fully utilize the returning quality, you should pick up a starknife. That's more or less what I invented them to be back in the day in my homebrew game—to be biggie-sized throwing stars that combine the cool of shurikens and boomerangs. (Yes, in my homebrew, normal starknifes return like boomerangs when thrown... that bit got edited out in print.)
Thanks for the imput. It was the bit under magic ammunition it stating specifically arrows, crossbow bolts and sling bullets as being destroyed on a hit and 50% on a miss. No mention of shuriken implying that they don't get destroyed, etc. when used. Which got me thinking about it along with the "generally ammunition gets destroyed" bit in the equipment section. I guess if a player wanted to spend full wack on it I'd let them burn the cash.
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There's a few reasons shurikens are treated as ammo...What about masterwork Shuriken? As I posted above:
"Masterwork ammunition is damaged (effectively destroyed) when used." -PFSRD
Does that mean magical shuriken are destroyed, but non-magical masterwork shuriken are only damaged?
That's exactly what that means. Shuriken are treated as ammunition. Masterwork shuriken are damaged (effectively destroyed) when used. They also cost less than a masterwork javelin or throwing axe.
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Just as a though, here is an alternative magic item I've pulled from my arse:
Bandoleer of Spinning Death
Aura faint evocation, Conjuration; CL 5th
Slot chest; Price 1500 (MW), 3000 gp (+1), 12000 gp (+2), 27, 000 gp (+3), 48,000 gp (+4), 75, 000 gp (+5); 108, 000 gp (+6), 147, 000 (+7) Weight 1
Description
This bandoleer remains improbably stocked with a shurikens, no mater how many you throw at your foe.
This item allows the user to throw enchanted shurikans at their foe which disappear at the end of the round. The quality of the shurikan is decided at creation time and may range from masterwork, to +7. Their total enhancement bonus may not be more then +5, but their effective bonus from other ammo enchantments may go up to +7. If the shurikan's are made of a special material, 50 times the cost of making a single shurikan from that material must be expended at the time of creation.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Arms and Armour, greater magic weapon, creator's caster level must be at least three times the amulet's bonus, plus any requirements of the melee weapon special abilities; Cost 750 (MW), 1500 gp (+1), 6000 gp (+2), 13, 500 gp (+3), 24,000 gp (+4), 37, 500 gp (+5); 54, 000 gp (+6), 73, 500 (+7)
Yep, but in PF they are counted as ammo.Early 3e question to 3e D&D staff at Gen Con, back when shuriken didn't count as ammo for magic properties:
Yes, partly because of the situation I described, which I mentioned because people upthread were talking about making them non-fragile non-ammo....
That's exactly what that means. Shuriken are treated as ammunition. Masterwork shuriken are damaged (effectively destroyed) when used. They also cost less than a masterwork javelin or throwing axe.Great! So them masterwork ammo (shuriken) are damaged when used, so they can be repaired by the Mending cantrip. Magical shuriken, however, are fully destroyed.
You're confusing "damaged" (not a status) with "broken" (a status). Destroyed weapons can't be mended with the Mended cantrip; they're destroyed. You can't repair your thrown shuriken.
Also, all magic weapons are masterwork, so if the status changes for masterwork it changes for magic as well.
Best houserule I ever heard was 'if the damage dealt by the weapon overcomes its hardness, subtract it from the weapons HP. If the weapon takes enough damage, it is destroyed.'
Thus, low damage weapons are reusable, but if you put too much strength into it, you'll lose the weapon.
That simultaneously sounds like an awesome and terrible house rule. I love the feel, but think it would bog down the game horribly. You high damage fighters would get annoyed quite a bit I suspect.
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That simultaneously sounds like an awesome and terrible house rule. I love the feel, but think it would bog down the game horribly. You high damage fighters would get annoyed quite a bit I suspect.
How many high damage fighters use thrown weapons? More often than not, you're using high Dex for a thrower, at the cost of Str. If your maximum damage is less than the weapons hardness, you never need to worry about it. Now, if you're a brute of a monk throwing shurikens with a +5 Str bonus, that 6 damage might be a problem. You might need to track the number of times you use each one, and that would be more bookkeeping, you are right. But for the casual knife thrower, or the archer who wants to recover arrows, it would be less of a headache.
Edit: This also explains why thrown daggers don't break, since they have 10 hardness, and you're not likely to do more than 10 base damage with it.
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Making shuriken "ammunition" and subject to the destroyed on a hit rules just doesn't fit - at all. It's tantamount to saying "your dagger explodes on impact" and clearly, this is not the case. At least with arrows and bolts, you've got the problems of retrieval and breakage - seems reasonable enough.
IMO, shuriken should just be treated as any other "thrown" weapon. Sure, there's the ammo-cost break, but it's NOT ammunition, nor should it be destroyed if tossed and successfully striking something. If the monk wants to roll over and pick up their shuriken, let 'em. If it's been enchanted with a quality that SPECIFICALLY RETURNS to the hand of the user as a free action, then that should over-rule "ammunition" as a magical quality is certainly more important than a mundane one, IMO.
Terrible rule, IMO - likely only put in place because of the low damage rating given to the shuriken in the first place (ie: an attempt to cut some slack to those that would use them).
Give your player the option of enchanting it as 50 pieces of ammo or as a single throwing weapon, done.
Thrown only weapons should be enchanted at 1/2 the cost of their melee or bow counterparts because throwers either have to have multiple weapons out or have to pay extra for the returning ability. Alternately I've seen the idea of a throwing glove tossed around which is enchanted similar to a bow.
That simultaneously sounds like an awesome and terrible house rule. I love the feel, but think it would bog down the game horribly. You high damage fighters would get annoyed quite a bit I suspect.How many high damage fighters use thrown weapons? More often than not, you're using high Dex for a thrower, at the cost of Str. If your maximum damage is less than the weapons hardness, you never need to worry about it. Now, if you're a brute of a monk throwing shurikens with a +5 Str bonus, that 6 damage might be a problem. You might need to track the number of times you use each one, and that would be more bookkeeping, you are right. But for the casual knife thrower, or the archer who wants to recover arrows, it would be less of a headache.
I was thinking for all weapons in general, not just thrown. And yes, I have seen shuriken users get up into the 10 damage per shot range. I was toying with a high str bard one using arcane strike. 18 str, 2 for bardic music, 2 for arcane strike, 2 for good hope. D2+10 damage a shot. Throw poison on for fun. My only real problem was I was a feat short.
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I was thinking for all weapons in general, not just thrown. And yes, I have seen shuriken users get up into the 10 damage per shot range. I was toying with a high str bard one using arcane strike. 18 str, 2 for bardic music, 2 for arcane strike, 2 for good hope. D2+10 damage a shot. Throw poison on for fun. My only real problem was I was a feat short.
I'm not sure that magical bonuses to damage should count, but that is similar to the corner case I mentioned. You can either throw for less damage or risk losing your shurikens.
Making shuriken "ammunition" and subject to the destroyed on a hit rules just doesn't fit - at all. It's tantamount to saying "your dagger explodes on impact" and clearly, this is not the case. At least with arrows and bolts, you've got the problems of retrieval and breakage - seems reasonable enough.
IMO, shuriken should just be treated as any other "thrown" weapon. Sure, there's the ammo-cost break, but it's NOT ammunition, nor should it be destroyed if tossed and successfully striking something. If the monk wants to roll over and pick up their shuriken, let 'em. If it's been enchanted with a quality that SPECIFICALLY RETURNS to the hand of the user as a free action, then that should over-rule "ammunition" as a magical quality is certainly more important than a mundane one, IMO.
Terrible rule, IMO - likely only put in place because of the low damage rating given to the shuriken in the first place (ie: an attempt to cut some slack to those that would use them).
Give your player the option of enchanting it as 50 pieces of ammo or as a single throwing weapon, done.
Thrown only weapons should be enchanted at 1/2 the cost of their melee or bow counterparts because throwers either have to have multiple weapons out or have to pay extra for the returning ability. Alternately I've seen the idea of a throwing glove tossed around which is enchanted similar to a bow.
With the game mechanics the way they are I think the throwing glove is the best solution. You simply cannot afford to keep throwing your money away enchanting shurikens that are destroyed, and you can't play a thrower without magic shurikens and be effective in level appropriate encounters. A glove that enchants thrown weapons for a round like the bow enchanting ammo is the best option and should be a no brainer
