Well, perhaps you could consider something like this (definitely needs testing first - just a random idea)
Perform attack action as a move action from BAB +7
Perform attack action as a swift action from BAB +14
Perform move action as a swift action from BAB +10
This would allow making two or three attack action at full BAB per turn (or two and move) and allow to use up all your actions.
I'm rather glad there aren't so many swift actions in the game. It keeps them special, keeps the game moving along faster, and limits brokenness.
their is also the fact that under the Star wars saga edition rules that if you use a Full round action you don't get a swift action, that would really change a lot of what you can do in Pathfinder.
My current character has the Arcane Strike feat, so I'm using my swift action on any turn where I'm attacking. If I routinely needed my swift action for other things, my Arcane Strike feat would be gimped. As it is, the feat that reduces your Arcane Spell Failure chance for armor would ALSO use a swift action, so I had to not take it.
Well, perhaps you could consider something like this (definitely needs testing first - just a random idea)
Perform attack action as a move action from BAB +7
Perform attack action as a swift action from BAB +14Perform move action as a swift action from BAB +10
This would allow making two or three attack action at full BAB per turn (or two and move) and allow to use up all your actions.
It would also let spell casters cast multiple quickened spells in a round.
It would also let spell casters cast multiple quickened spells in a round.Yeah, at 20th level. :)
Clerics or other medium BAB casters (bards, oracles, etc) could do it at 14th level.
Clerics or other medium BAB casters (bards, oracles, etc) could do it at 14th level.You let clerics take metamagic feats?
I even allow Divine Metamagic. I do not, however, allow night sticks. DMM isn't all that bad when you don't have infinite turn attempts/channels.
It would also let spell casters cast multiple quickened spells in a round.They can already do this. They can cast a quickened spell as a Swift action, then cast a spell normally as a standard action.
-Skeld
Which part of that is letting them cast multiple quickened spells in a round?
Not something that has ever come up. I guess the groups I've run with considered metamagic an arcane thing. Never occurred to us that divine casters would do it.
Considering that DMM has the underlying metamagic as a prerequisite, how would a cleric take DMM if they couldn't take normal metamagics.
DMM is fine, it was nightsticks and certain specific metamagics(IE Persistant spell) that was broken.
Creative Director
|
I'd actually like to keep swift actions relatively restrained. Not because doing so makes them more special, but because swift actions extend the length of a player's turn by giving him more options. And when you extend the length of a player's turn, they've got more choices to make and as a result their turns take progressively longer. Too many swift action options and suddenly one player might end up monopolizing the game play, since the amount of time you play in a session is unlikely to change.
Immediate actions are even worse, since they disrupt the flow of game play.
|
Which part of that is letting them cast multiple quickened spells in a round?
Sorry; misread your post. I read it as "multiple spells" instead of "multiple quickened spells." No need to get touchy.
Meh. If I were going to go the route of trading down actions, I probably wouldn't worry about it. If it looked like it were going to be a problem, I'd just limit quickened spells to one/round.
-Skeld
Not something that has ever come up. I guess the groups I've run with considered metamagic an arcane thing. Never occurred to us that divine casters would do it.
Odd.
I can't imagine why not.
Gods forfend, don't empower a Cure Moderate Wounds (just cast a Cure Critical Wounds in the same slot). But exending those delicious cleric buffs is awesome.
And Still Spell and Silent Spell are just as useful for sneaking around and/or casting while you're bound and/or gagged, regardless of whether you're a cleric or mage.
And Quicken still rules the day, when used judiciously.
|
|
Considering that DMM has the underlying metamagic as a prerequisite, how would a cleric take DMM if they couldn't take normal metamagics.
Again, I've never seen either taken by divine casters, so it's never occurred to me.
I dunno Blake, unconscious thought that metamagic is the caster altering the spell, and clerics get their spells from the gods, so how could they alter it? Like I said, never crossed my mind.
No need to get touchy.
I wasn't, I promise :) The bold was just to emphasize where you'd misread the post.
An 11th level Bard needs to decide:
Do I want to use my swift action to activate my arcane strike this round or do I want to use it to activate my Bardic Music?
Definitely the swift action has options for that class. Speaking of which - off to play my Bard right now. Goodnight all!
For example ...
• Dismissing a Spell
For the record, Dismissing a spell is a standard action, RAW.
I like to sneak "dismiss as a move" as an added bonus in custom feats.
It would also let spell casters cast multiple quickened spells in a round.Well, perhaps you could consider something like this (definitely needs testing first - just a random idea)
Perform attack action as a move action from BAB +7
Perform attack action as a swift action from BAB +14Perform move action as a swift action from BAB +10
This would allow making two or three attack action at full BAB per turn (or two and move) and allow to use up all your actions.
How come?
I meant taking another move action instead of your swift action, not the other way around.
It was meant to allow more standard attacks with the full BAB or moves for higher level characters, but certainly not to afffect regular spellcasting procedures.
How come?
I meant taking another move action instead of your swift action, not the other way around.
Whoops, that's my fault, I misread it.
Whoops, that's my fault, I misread it.How come?
I meant taking another move action instead of your swift action, not the other way around.
Tehee, thought so... happens all the time (goes back to see the barbarian power thread)
Still, what do you think about this? You certainy are among those here who have better grasp on the math side of the game.
Another fine combat thread has slid into spells per second. I make them wait! I had a DM who would count components, written portions and paraphenelia too! AD&D does still rock this stuff out the door, anyway... Considering that I do box I must say that yes the most powerful parts of striking happen in a flash--practically without anytime at all, BUT you create that time with formal advancement through the Five Fists (jab, cross, uppercut, straight, and hook). So just throwing in a blast every round wouldn't be realistic. Although for a fist fighter six seconds provided enough time for as many as eleven punches. At high level wearing gauntlets this could pack ALOT of heat! So take it or leave it, you are the DM? Do it if you want too.
Another fine combat thread has slid into spells per second. I make them wait! I had a DM who would count components, written portions and paraphenelia too! AD&D does still rock this stuff out the door, anyway... Considering that I do box I must say that yes the most powerful parts of striking happen in a flash--practically without anytime at all, BUT you create that time with formal advancement through the Five Fists (jab, cross, uppercut, straight, and hook). So just throwing in a blast every round wouldn't be realistic. Although for a fist fighter six seconds provided enough time for as many as eleven punches. At high level wearing gauntlets this could pack ALOT of heat! So take it or leave it, you are the DM? Do it if you want too.
This was a combat thread? I thought that this was a "how to utilize your swift action a bit more" thread?
For me the d20 combat is purely abstract.
Hp somehow represent creature's ability to continue fighting and fighter's attack can be 20 jabs just as well as one mighty swing that in the end has the same result - it eats up a portion of fighting ability. Higher level characters get greater fighting ability reserves and a chance to eat up more of enemy reserves in turn.
How you choose to describe it is up to you alone IMHO.
To the OP: I like swift actions a tactical element too. I'd like it if there was a set of combat feats that used them better effect. They need not represent different action, but instead represent extreme focus on the part of the character, like back in the alpha when Dodge cost a swift action. That was kinda cool, and I wish there were more combat feats that did a similar thing. Perhaps there should be an "greater dodge", along with a slew of other "greater" combat feats that use swift actions, making you choose where to put your focus for the round.
Whoops, that's my fault, I misread it.How come?
I meant taking another move action instead of your swift action, not the other way around.
Tehee, thought so... happens all the time (goes back to see the barbarian power thread)
Still, what do you think about this? You certainy are among those here who have better grasp on the math side of the game.
It shouldn't be an issue from a math point of view. It gives an extra attack when you full attack at high levels or lets you move and full attack (which is basically just pounce, which was easy enough to get if you knew what you were doing in 3.5) at moderate to high levels. It might open up exploits that I'm not thinking of, and it definitely doesn't fit with what a swift action is conceptually (something that takes a very small but measurable amount of time), but now that I realize you only allow for swift actions to be converted to other actions, but not vice versa, it's fairly mechanically sound.
Thanks for the analysis. I was just looking for a quick fix ;)
Zmar, I didn't introduce the topic of boxing. What is the point in complaining about a rule that is not important enough. It's a rule, use it.
Zmar, I didn't introduce the topic of boxing. What is the point in complaining about a rule that is not important enough. It's a rule, use it.
Well, I could care less for the rule, Just telling it's a pure abstraction and trying to talk about realism is kinda useless. Aside from that I'm not the one who complains about the rules, I was just trying to deliver some quick fix. My group is actually quite satisfied with the system as it is.
Zmar, I didn't introduce the topic of boxing. What is the point in complaining about a rule that is not important enough. It's a rule, use it.Well, I could care less for the rule, Just telling it's a pure abstraction and trying to talk about realism is kinda useless. Aside from that I'm not the one who complains about the rules, I was just trying to deliver some quick fix. My group is actually quite satisfied with the system as it is.
The topic and the rule are both good, lists of actions and times have been developed, so why not create a structure for real combat? A right hook will either land or get blocked-exposing the ribs for a moment. There are punches, lunges, long kicks, headlocks, takedowns and the cross body block; to honestly cover the basics. Combat has not been getting any attention. People who do you round pieces seem to experiment and dungeon masters have absolutely no basis for claiming a character is tired or fatigued, though we often do. It isn't really a matter of damage, it is a matter of energy and position.
Just use the sudden metamagic feat for quicken instead of the regular quicken feat. We are still alowed to use material from 3.5 books if we want to. I don't think Jason Bulmahm, James Jacobs, or Eric Mona will come to our houses and stop us.
|
|
Well, perhaps you could consider something like this (definitely needs testing first - just a random idea)
Perform attack action as a move action from BAB +7
Perform attack action as a swift action from BAB +14Perform move action as a swift action from BAB +10
This would allow making two or three attack action at full BAB per turn (or two and move) and allow to use up all your actions.
Well...that is basically 2-3 attack at full BAB so that means power attacks are likely to hit on all counts...and 2-3 attack that can be vital strike attacks (or cleave/great cleave). That can get a mite powerful. Also converting a swift for a move means you can do full round spells (like summon spells) in one go. You can also move and full attack, move and whirlwind and what not. Or even whirlwind then vital strike/great cleave. Other then the spell issue however, it isn´t quite game breaking...but the power jump is higher then just getting a couple of full BAB attacks in one round.
Heh, for realism there can be many changes, but the question is how ballanced the thing would be.
Attack:
-No additional attack because of BAB
Standard action:
-One attack for every point of DEX bonus (minimum 1) at full BAB
-Two attacks for every point of DEX bonus (minimum 2) at BAB -5
Full-round action:
-Two attack for every point of DEX bonus (minimum 2) at full BAB
-Three attacks for every point of DEX bonus (minimum 3) at BAB -5
Armour:
-Split armour bonus between deflection, representing armour's ability to turn away blows, and absorbtion, representing armour's ability to absorb the impact.
-Piercing weapons overcome absorbtion AC, bludgeoning weapons overcome deflection AC and slashing weapons overcome half of both.
-This would allow to fine-tune how effective various weapon types are against different types of armour. Chain mail was for example much less effective against pircing weapons.
Ballance:
-Each character starts tracking ballance points in regards to north. -With every attack you choose to which direction you add two ballance points to your enemy (or one point to each for combination directions like SE) and one to the same direction to your rating. Add one additional point for every size category the target is smaller than you and one less point for every size category the target is bigger than you.
-If there are any points in the opposite direction, subtract appropriate number of points from that direction first.
-Alternatively instead of one of your attacks you can choose to regain ballance - you can remove total of 5 ballance points from any number of directions.
-If you have more than 5 points in one direction. You suffer a -2 penalty against attack adding ballance points to that direction.
-If you have 15 points or more in one direction you fall prone to the square where you have the most points.
Fatigue:
-After fighting for CON x 4 rounds you become fatigued.
-After fighting for CON x 8 rounds you become exhauseted.
The point is that a DM can make the rules he wants on the fly. It would be good to have some guidance for doing just that, but the sheer amount of text the all-compassing rules would recquire...
Well...that is basically 2-3 attack at full BAB so that means power attacks are likely to hit on all counts...and 2-3 attack that can be vital strike attacks (or cleave/great cleave). That can get a mite powerful. Also converting a swift for a move means you can do full round spells (like summon spells) in one go. You can also move and full attack, move and whirlwind and what not. Or even whirlwind then vital strike/great cleave. Other then the spell issue however, it isn´t quite game breaking...but the power jump is higher then just getting a couple of full BAB attacks in one round.Well, perhaps you could consider something like this (definitely needs testing first - just a random idea)
Perform attack action as a move action from BAB +7
Perform attack action as a swift action from BAB +14Perform move action as a swift action from BAB +10
This would allow making two or three attack action at full BAB per turn (or two and move) and allow to use up all your actions.
Well, I think the fighting classes could still use some boost on higher levels, or rather that the the boost would somewhat disappear in it's signifficance.
I was thinking about the balance system I spewed forth a bit earlier and here is a slight revision:
Ballance:
-Each character starts tracking ballance points in regards to north. -With every successful attack you choose to which direction you add two ballance points to your enemy (or one point to each for combination directions like SE) and one to the same direction to your rating. Unsuccessful attack results in enemy gaining one point, while you gain two in he originally intended direction.
--Add one additional point to the target for every size category the target is smaller than you and one less point for every size category the target is bigger than you.
--Two handed weapons add one additional ballance point to every target, while light weapons add one less point.
--Add two balance points to the direction you charge for both you and the target.
-If there are any points in the opposite direction, subtract appropriate number of points from that direction first before you start to add in the oposite direction, so that there are never points in both opposite directions at once.
-For every 5 ft you move toward the direction in which you have ballance points subtract 2 ballance points.
-Alternatively instead of one attack you can choose to regain ballance. You can remove total of 5 ballance points from any number of directions with a successful DC 10 + total number of ballance points acrobatics check.
-If you have more than half of your CMD points in one direction. You suffer a -2 penalty against attacks adding ballance points to that direction.
-If you have more than your CMD points or more in one direction you must succeed in Acrobatics check equal to the number of ballance points or fall prone to the square where you have the most points.
|
|
Well, I think the fighting classes could still use some boost on higher levels, or rather that the the boost would somewhat disappear in it's signifficance.
Well like I said, not game breaking...but the boost is quite significant...and it doesn´t actually fix why fighters are so weak at high levels anyways. Being able to do more damage isn´t the fix.
Being able to do more damage isn´t the fix.
This. I already built a fighter that could solo a Balor a reasonable percentage of the time. He did something like 250+ damage per round. Damage isn't the problem. The fact that dealing damage is the only option for Fighters is the problem. They're already quite good at dealing damage, arguably the best in "all-terrains" so to speak.
What about a feat chain that uses swift-actions to provide a modest bonus to various manuevers and other combat related actions (edit: mostly not direct damage stuff, but more about positioning/defense/other stuff that let's the fighter do more than just full attack). Maybe balance it against arcane strike, but gear it towards fighters/monks/conventional melée. I would even suggest that they scale with level so you are encouraged to pick up a few different ones.
|
I'd actually like to keep swift actions relatively restrained. Not because doing so makes them more special, but because swift actions extend the length of a player's turn by giving him more options. And when you extend the length of a player's turn, they've got more choices to make and as a result their turns take progressively longer. Too many swift action options and suddenly one player might end up monopolizing the game play, since the amount of time you play in a session is unlikely to change.
Immediate actions are even worse, since they disrupt the flow of game play.
Not in my games, it doesn't matter how many actions you have in my games, or what level, each player has 30 seconds for their turn. I have a stop watch and everything :D
Well like I said, not game breaking...but the boost is quite significant...and it doesn´t actually fix why fighters are so weak at high levels anyways. Being able to do more damage isn´t the fix.
Well, I think the fighting classes could still use some boost on higher levels, or rather that the the boost would somewhat disappear in it's signifficance.
Well, the ability to follow through teleport or perhaps ability to...
It all would recquire playtesting and work.
Let'shope that APG will address some issues and that the Pathfinder 2.0 will in the end deliver the best solution when it's finally made :D