I really like Bleeding Attack for a PC Rogue, but even more I like Stand Still for an NPC Rogue. When Fighter McStabby rolls up and starts wailing on your NPC wizard, have your NPC rogue tumble in and (because your wizard is holding his staff and therefore threatens) flank Mr. McStabby and stand still sneak attack him. Now your wizard can cast spells without provoking.
Also, Fast Stealth is excellent. It just is. Combine it with Spring Attack and pounce from cover to cover while getting your bleeding/stand still'd sneak attacks because the guy you keep stabbing can't find you.
The Finesse and Combat Trick ones really help non-humans in early levels. I really love the Trap Spotter power, but that one complicates the GM's job a litle.
Humbly,
Yawar
I like the idea of taking Minor Magic keyed to detect magic. Aids trap finding and reveals the most valuable items in a room.
Any other nifty combinations out there?
I've got a rog2/wiz3 with fast stealth I intend to use in great concert with invisibility, clouds, and other stealth-enabling magic. Plop a summoned creature down and creep away. The auto-trap finding talent would be cool if you could rely on your DM to remember to roll it.
Zo
The auto-trap finding talent would be cool if you could rely on your DM to remember to roll it.
Well if he forgets and springs the trap, then you would remember him your ability, chack if you would have succeeded and backtrack if aplicable. This will most likely happen just a few times until the GM gets used to it.
Humbly,
Yawar
I like the idea of taking Minor Magic keyed to detect magic. Aids trap finding and reveals the most valuable items in a room.
Any other nifty combinations out there?
Minor Magic for Read Magic is pretty useful for a UMD/Scroll rogue, as it basically means you can decipher any scroll w/o a skill check.
Depending on your DM, you might get a ton of mileage out of Prestidigitation
If your DM allows Golarion non-core materials, Liberating Command might be an interesting choice for Major Magic, even though there are probably better spells such as [i[Jump[/i], Expeditious Retreat[/i], or Feather Fall
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When I make most of my rogues, I always toy around with the idea of taking the Major Magic talent just so I could use Obscuring Mist to escape like a ninja. Ghost Sound is a great choice for minor magic, and Silent Image can be stellar as Major. Reduce Person can be good for a rogue that finds he must go into very cramped spaces. If you're a finesse rogue, reduce person actually nets you +2 to attack and AC, +4 stealth, and -1 or 2 damage doesn't really bother you since most of your damage is from sneak attack...
I like the idea of taking Minor Magic keyed to detect magic. Aids trap finding and reveals the most valuable items in a room.
Any other nifty combinations out there?
Minor/Major talents are weak compared to simply using UMD + a wand or scroll. Still, you asked for combinations:
Major + silent image: Hide yourself inside the illusion of a barrel (no stealth check needed!), throw off pursuit by putting a fake wall behind you, your creativity is your limit.
For adding to the concept, I like the Fast Stealth and Ledge Walker talents - they're just cool!
For adding to combat options I LOVE Combat Trick - it means you can build a rogue with almost as many feats as a fighter now - and more options (ie: true "rogue" stuff). It's really tremendously opening to the classes combat options overall - ranged or melee. I think this really enhances say, the "swashbuckling" type of character, or "finesse fighter" sorts of concepts w/out requiring dips into fighter for feats (forget that all the armor and skills are kind of useless to such a concept - the feats were needed). You also don't need a new core class like the one from CW to manage a reasonable interpretation of the archetype w/this class.
I think that it's kind of a shame that something like Hide in Plain Sight isn't on the Rogue's Advanced Talent list - I mean, if there's a class more likely to just disappear when you're not looking, I can't think of it (non-magically that is).
You realize you can only take a rogue talent once right? So you can only take combat trick once.
*shock*
Well ... hot damn! Totally missed that one. {heads back to house rules to adjust things ...}
Most make sense to be taken only once (Bleeding attack, etc), but things like that seem more like "once" could/should be applied to that one, particular trick/application vs. the talent in particular (ie: multiple spells - each one a different talent, etc). Combat Trick would fall under this same thing, too, IMO.
I wonder if it's a RAW vs. RAI intent there. The rule makes a lot of sense for say Ledge Walker - it just gives you a new option, but seems overly restrictive on things like Combat Trick.
Just my thoughts ...
Yeah, I definitely don't think it breaks things even slightly. If he wants to sacrifice EVERY rogue-thing he has going for him for feats, he'll be a worse fighter than a fighter. Same thing for spells/magic tricks - he'll be FAR worse of a caster than a real caster.
:shrugs:
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You realize you can only take a rogue talent once right? So you can only take combat trick once.*shock*
Well ... hot damn! Totally missed that one. {heads back to house rules to adjust things ...}
Most make sense to be taken only once (Bleeding attack, etc), but things like that seem more like "once" could/should be applied to that one, particular trick/application vs. the talent in particular (ie: multiple spells - each one a different talent, etc). Combat Trick would fall under this same thing, too, IMO.
I wonder if it's a RAW vs. RAI intent there. The rule makes a lot of sense for say Ledge Walker - it just gives you a new option, but seems overly restrictive on things like Combat Trick.
Just my thoughts ...
Yeah, I definitely don't think it breaks things even slightly. If he wants to sacrifice EVERY rogue-thing he has going for him for feats, he'll be a worse fighter than a fighter. Same thing for spells/magic tricks - he'll be FAR worse of a caster than a real caster.
:shrugs:
If you could take Combat Trick more than once then Finesse Rogue and Weapon Training would be unnecessary as they are both combat feats you could take with Combat Trick. That adds to the rules as written than it's RAI that you can only take Combat Trick once.
If you could take Combat Trick more than once then Finesse Rogue and Weapon Training would be unnecessary as they are both combat feats you could take with Combat Trick. That adds to the rules as written than it's RAI that you can only take Combat Trick once.
Good point!
I still don't think it's particularly broken in the end. :shrugs: They won't get weapon training, they won't have armor training, AC is necessarily lower, and they're giving up rogue-specific stuff IF so dedicated.
:shrugs:
Beyond this, PF allows for more feats for "character level" anyway - so either way the concept is more permissible within PF's framework vs. any previous edition's frameworks (and that's all my initial point was - it's a good thing to make it "playable" from the get RAW, or RAI).
Half-orc rogue with Resiliency. Dovetails nicely with Orc Ferocity.
Most of the talents are nicely applicable to different concepts (and help differentiate different rogue concepts. Fast Stealth and Ledge Walker very useful (Fast Stealth is especially great for a Shadowdancer). Bleeding attack is a favorite of mine to put on theoretical builds, but I haven't seen it in practice yet.
Of more random ones, I like Stand Up. There is nothing terribly optimized about it, since it still provokes the AOO, I just love the image of a fallen rogue kipping up as soon as he's able and still able to act.
Has anyone considered Minor Magic for Acid Splash? You can still sneak attack with weapon-like spells in Pathfinder, right? If so, it's a pretty nice option for those rogues who like to win initiative but don't want to get caught in the thick of things by themselves or carry a loaded crossbow all day.
If you take Major Magic (true strike) later, you can take quicken spell-like for 2 auto-hits per day.
I'm a fan of the surprise attack ability, especially when combined with hail of arrows. Setting up ambushes with that little combo essentially makes you a round 1 mercenary of pain (or death depending on your set up).
If nothing else, you definately make the fighter a lot easier by softening up the enemies. All of them.
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Has anyone considered Minor Magic for Acid Splash? You can still sneak attack with weapon-like spells in Pathfinder, right? If so, it's a pretty nice option for those rogues who like to win initiative but don't want to get caught in the thick of things by themselves or carry a loaded crossbow all day.
If you take Major Magic (true strike) later, you can take quicken spell-like for 2 auto-hits per day.
Acid splash is also a nice choice because it bypasses SR if you don't want to roll caster against a high opponent or if you multiclass and your caster drops.
I like Acid Splash too (no save, no SR, Sneak attack), for the mentioned reasons, plus, on the surprise round, you do a range touch attack against a flat-footed opponent. It's hard to miss...
Combined with Surprise Attack...
Also, Surprise attack if you plan to take some levels of Diviner...
And I really like Major Magic (Grease), if you don't have a caster that'll cast it. Gives you more chances of getting someone FF (for Acid Splash...).
We have quite a few house-ruled non-combative talents, as our group felt like there was waay too much of a focus on martial skills. My wife's favorite is "Urchin Magnet" - very useful so far in our SCAP game.
Peace,
DoD Kev'
Stand Up to me shouldn't be a rogue talent. It should be an Acrobatics check with a modest DC (15 maybe?). But that's just me, and I'll probably houserule it as a skill check rather than a whole talent unto itself.
I love Bleeding Attack, Fast Stealth, Trap Spotter, and Crippling Strike. A full attack of sneak attacks combined with Crippling Strike (cannot be combined with Bleeding Attack mind you) will leave an enemy seriously hurting due to the loss of hps and strength.
Surprise attack is only during the surprise round, and you only get a standard action in the surprise round. So, only one arrow, and not so much a mercenary of pain...
And normally you can only make so many attacks a round. Our dm said I can start of a nice surprise round by doimg it. If we took the time to set up an ambush, we surprise them however we plan to.
Crippling strike is pretty nasty,
at low levels you can't beat extra feats though (combat trick, weapon finesse)
I knew this really hot rogue once who did this amazing thing with her tongue
but thats probably not the kind of talent we are talking about here, right?
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Stand Up to me shouldn't be a rogue talent. It should be an Acrobatics check with a modest DC (15 maybe?). But that's just me, and I'll probably houserule it as a skill check rather than a whole talent unto itself.
My character is waiting until he has 12 ranks in Acrobatics, then he will take the skill trick 'Back on Your Feet', which will allow him to stand up from the prone as an immediate action that does NOT provoke an attack of opportunity.
As far as the normal thief talents (levels 2-8) go, Fast Stealth is probably my favorite. I also like our homebrew one, Lockpicker, which allows thieves to use Disable Device to unlock magical locks.
The auto-trap finding talent would be cool if you could rely on your DM to remember to roll it.
Well if he forgets and springs the trap, then you would remember him your ability, chack if you would have succeeded and backtrack if aplicable. This will most likely happen just a few times until the GM gets used to it.
Humbly,
Yawar
Agreed, that's the best way to handle it if it slips the DM's mind. Rewinding time can interrupt the flow of the game, but PCs shouldn't be punished for a DM's errors. Knowing myself, though, I'd tend to forget about it...
Zo
EDIT:
I like Acid Splash too (no save, no SR, Sneak attack), for the mentioned reasons, plus, on the surprise round, you do a range touch attack against a flat-footed opponent. It's hard to miss...
I've got a Conjurer/Rogue and the Acid Dart ability is good for that too. Limited number of uses, but you don't have to burn a talent.
Crippling Strike is just plain amazing.Bleeding attack is also very strong.
Personally though, one that I think is awfully powerful and often overlooked is Slow Reactions. With a rogue with high initiative or who dips a level in Diviner they can cherry pick an enemy and move to flank without fear of reprisal. Also great for getaways.
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A lot really depends on your GM. Fast stealth and trap-spotter are quite nice but my GM kind of hand-waves both those things anyways (speed during stealth never seems to matter). Stand Up is really good if you get knocked over a lot.
Resiliency is pretty awesome and maybe the best of them all. Stop bleeding, prevent death... quite nice.