from reading the 1st ap it appears the players are encouraged to help the kobolds,even rewarding them for doing so. now there are a couple problems with this. first the obvious one-kobolds are evil. im sure my players will be inclined to "kill the evil guys!" and ask questions later. second, if they do choose to help them they might find themselves debating on what effect this could have leaving the kobolds intact to cause future problems with the kingdom,and go back to finish them off. third,the kobolds reside in an abandoned silver mine, a mine that could be put to use funding the kingdom. I guess an option that could be used is to eradicate the mites and persuade the kobolds to relocate there "now that we've killed your crazed shaman you should relocate before his soul comes back as an undead and kills you all!".
Keep in mind that there is evil and then there's EVIL. Demons are EVIL. Kobolds are just evil. Would the PCs be as cool with slaughter if is were a tribe of evil humans?
I'm kind of worried about my players murdering all of the kobolds too, but before I start running the AP I plan to drop them some serious hints about how there are creatures that may initially seem hostile that there is a much more diplomatic and interesting solution to (kobolds, faerie dragon/grig, Akiros, etc) and that this game is ultimately a sandbox with many possibilities, some of which will be much more fun than others if they don't murder everything in sight. I guess I'm basically going to let them know that it's ultimately up to them whether this AP turns out awesome for them or turns into a crappy meat-grinder and ask them to please not poop in the sandbox because that will make it much less fun to play in for them and for me. I hope that if I set the tone that there is potential to make friends in unlikely places, they'll be more likely to befriend the kobolds.
That said, I'm personally hoping that instead of out-right evicting the Sootscales, my players will get the idea to invite them to be a part of their kingdom. Am I the only one who thinks it would be great if the PCs put Chief Sootscale in one of the leadership positions in the next module? I like Akiros too and think he'd maybe make a cool adviser or something as well. If I end up with a "spam detect evil and never compromise" type character, I'll just change them to a neutral tribe. I think it's silly that all kobolds are apparently evil anyways.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
If I end up with a "spam detect evil and never compromise" type character, I'll just change them to a neutral tribe. I think it's silly that all kobolds are apparently evil anyways.
Also, don't forget that Detect Evil doesn't actually detect evil alignments by default, only the evil aura associated with clerics, certain evil magic, outsiders, and undead. If the target is merely an evil creature with 5 or fewer hit dice, it has no evil aura at all. And you'll notice that the only kobold with 5 hit dice is pretty obviously actively evil and not just "evil because kobolds are evil".
So if you've got your zealous paladin with the Detect Evil hair trigger, remember that the kobolds won't actually show up that way.
|
I think I've come to accept the fact that my group will hack apart the kobolds and probably the mites as well. Thus far they have been playing up the "we're adventurers, prepare to become experience" card to its utmost.
I will be surprised if the call for "parley" is heard above the clamor for kobold blood, but even if the kobolds aren't rooted out they might find themselves on the short end of an eviction notice once the group starts the kingdom building process. Not only are the kobolds sitting on a silver mine (to go nicely with the gold mine they've already found and "forgot" to add to the map), but they are traditionally pests that cause problems for villages that are bound to spring up nearby.
|
Just got finished running the kobold/mite lairs today.
I just have to say, as a HUGE fan of the kobold race, I was very pleased to see the option for peace even included. Can't wait to see how things develop in the next adventure!
Keep in mind that there is evil and then there's EVIL. Demons are EVIL. Kobolds are just evil. Would the PCs be as cool with slaughter if is were a tribe of evil humans?
actually if my players found out that they were a tribe of evil humans they probably would lol. take for instance, I'm pretty sure there going to kill the stag lord and his bandits in the name of good, and not try to make friends.My players don't discriminate-they kill everyone equally lmao.
one thing to keep in mind is all my players are longtime veterans. people i've played with on and off for 15 years! they've been playing for as long as some new gamers are in age. the've played through so many quests and monsters that these gamers are not the same as running someone new to the game. while they separate player knowledge and character knowledge very well,there also wise *devious* enough to build a character who would know some of there player knowledge.
ex-"GM(me)-you spot a small reptilian humanoid cowering in the cave...Jae-what kind of creature is it? is it a kobold we seen on the poster? Gm(me)*i check to look what knowledge check is needed* Jae-if it's a knowledge check, between our party we have all knowledge's *grin*. me-wow that's convenient(not surprised lol)...
It's pretty safe to assume the players will find out eventually that kobolds in Golarion are still evil in general. once they discover that, i know my players will probably kill or drive them out. If there gona build a kingdom there not going to kill the kobolds enemies,let them build up unchallenged, so they can become a threat to the peasants. After all even if there allied with while there not "devil evil,but they are evil! So it's not whether they will double cross you or stab you in the back but when. while there some story rewards for allying, and you would get rewarded for also killing them, I'm gona leave open the possibility the players can ally with them and pursued them to leave the area. I would award all the XP for defeating them plus the story reward of removing them, plus another bonus for doing it peacfully and methodically.
my party had very good contact with the kobolds, as a random encounter. they shared a few tales around the campfire, swapped some regional info, made a pact to act in both their interests etc.
the party is mostly LN, with 2 LE in it, so all as expected
|
|
The party I'm Gming for found the kobolds while exploring.
They first encountered them at the moon radish patch and through a quick bit of diplomacy found out about the name of the chief and the shaman and the fact the chief didn't really get on with the shaman. Though the lair's location was not revealed.
The second encounter was while the PC's were mapping and exploring the non forest areas in a methodical manner, they followed the river and came across the cave/mine.
After the guard invited them in was taking them to see the shaman, the chief saw them and called them over to talk, bits and the missing statue and curse along with the worship of Old Sharptooth, as we have a cleric and a two other PC's with high int and knowledge religion and knowledge nature I allowed them to see if they had heard of this kobold god, two natural 20's later they worked out they hadn't heard of it and where suspicious especially when the chief let slip that he hadn't before the shaman showed up.
After confronting the shaman and talking with him, a gnome player talking in gnomish to another player so the shaman wouldn't understand spotted the shaman reacting the the groups plan to test out whether Old Sharptooth existed or not. when this happened a battle broke out and the PC's slew Tartuk.
A few quick discussion and some hasty diplomacy coupled with the discover of the diary/journal sealed the deal.
The group now has a meeting with the tribe at Oleg's in a week to discuss trade of silver and moon radishes.
|
|
The group now has a meeting with the tribe at Oleg's in a week to discuss trade of silver and moon radishes.
For some reason this sentence made me grin. Kobolds are inherently funny to me, and the idea of them very seriously negotiating trade deals, whilst their tiny legs dangle from human-sized furniture...too cute.
The "ally with the kobolds" idea takes me back to "The Sunless Citadel," which I have probably run close to a dozen times since it was published long, long ago at the dawn of 3.0. I think only once or twice did I have a group that insisted on slaughtering the kobolds, and I think that was mostly due to late-night whimsy. ("Sooo...how many kobolds would you say are in your average tribe? That many? Huh. I bet I can take 'em.") Poor little Meepo was so pathetic, even the most violent of hack'n'slashers couldn't bring themselves to off him.
I'm guessing my group will try to ally with the kobold tribe, as we generally seem to dig that style of play, but I could see problems arising if the party kills some or all of the kobolds in the radish patch first. Unlike the captive kobold or the talkative guard, these kobolds do spring up, ready for combat, and I wouldn't hold it against the PCs for defending themselves. I do wonder, though, what effects this might have on future attempts at diplomacy with the tribe.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just have to say, as a HUGE fan of the kobold race, I was very pleased to see the option for peace even included. Can't wait to see how things develop in the next adventure!
I second, third and fourth this.
|
|
The group now has a meeting with the tribe at Oleg's in a week to discuss trade of silver and moon radishes.
For some reason this sentence made me grin. Kobolds are inherently funny to me, and the idea of them very seriously negotiating trade deals, whilst their tiny legs dangle from human-sized furniture...too cute.
The "ally with the kobolds" idea takes me back to "The Sunless Citadel," which I have probably run close to a dozen times since it was published long, long ago at the dawn of 3.0. I think only once or twice did I have a group that insisted on slaughtering the kobolds, and I think that was mostly due to late-night whimsy. ("Sooo...how many kobolds would you say are in your average tribe? That many? Huh. I bet I can take 'em.") Poor little Meepo was so pathetic, even the most violent of hack'n'slashers couldn't bring themselves to off him.
I'm guessing my group will try to ally with the kobold tribe, as we generally seem to dig that style of play, but I could see problems arising if the party kills some or all of the kobolds in the radish patch first. Unlike the captive kobold or the talkative guard, these kobolds do spring up, ready for combat, and I wouldn't hold it against the PCs for defending themselves. I do wonder, though, what effects this might have on future attempts at diplomacy with the tribe.
MEEPO! I loved that little guy. Because of him, almost every time there's a group of Kobolds in our games at least one of them is named Meepo.
Creative Director
|
Just to manage expectations a little...
The Sootscale kobolds might get mentioned now and then in passing in adventures to come, but they're not really a major part of the remaining five adventures at all. This goes for MOST of the characters you'll be meeting in the adventures; since we can't assume that any of these NPCs the PCs encounter will survive (due to the sandbox goal of the campaign) we aren't really building stories for them that cross adventure boundaries. There are a FEW exceptions here and there, but for the most part, how characters like the Sootscales develop in your campaign is left 100% up to you.
If the PCs want to kill the kobolds... that's fine!
That's why I like Paizo so much. James shares so many of my convictions: Kill all kobolds, dwarves are an inferior race that have no rights, probably other things... :D
|
|
The group now has a meeting with the tribe at Oleg's in a week to discuss trade of silver and moon radishes.
For some reason this sentence made me grin. Kobolds are inherently funny to me, and the idea of them very seriously negotiating trade deals, whilst their tiny legs dangle from human-sized furniture...too cute.
Several of my players a big kobold fans so always root for the underdog :)
I can see this alliance working out fairly well though I'm going to throw as many spanners in the works as possible, what GM wouldn't.|
Creative Director
|
If the PCs want to kill the kobolds... that's fine!That's why I like Paizo so much. James shares so many of my convictions: Kill all kobolds, dwarves are an inferior race that have no rights, probably other things... :D
Not to break any hearts... but I actually DO like kobolds. Quite a lot. I hope that the majority of groups playing Kingmaker DO make friends with the Sootscales, because they're cool! :-)
Add me to the love Kobolds crew, My crew also tends to reach peaceful resolutions more often then not. Also Eviction is a possible option for the more middle ground pc types.
For awhile I was going to add a monkey wrench into the whole Kobold fiasco. A second tribe, run by a very vicious leader (Crown of the Kobold King). I was going to have Oleg get some mysterious malady some time when the PCs were on the cusp of 2nd level. Svetlana would then send them to Bokken for a possible cure. Bokken would send them for ingredients (D0 module), a spider stomach (from the hex with the spider), moon radishes, and the mushrooms from the old crypt (Breeg Orlivanchs Hex). I was going to have Breegs body turn up in the Courtyard of the upper level (again D0).
This way I could also incorporate D1.5 later (when they hit 5th), and eventually the Hungry Dead, etc.
As an added bonus the party would get the reward for the murderous Kobolds (D0-D1) and still broker an agreement with the Sootscales. This would also tie a couple of the "lesser" hexes in the process.
Just not sure I wanna add so much stuff to this awesome AP.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
In my campaign, the PCs are higher level than normal for the AP because they did various adventures while waiting for the APs to come out. Heck, the first couple of sessions were cobbled together from draft notes and early version maps that I had. In any case, by the time they arrived at the Sootscale Caverns, the kobolds had been wiped out by a (rolled wandering monster) barghest with a gang of goblin rogues. The killed the gobbos but the barghest escaped and has been gathering a pack of worgs to harry the barony's eastern flank and continues to be a thorn in their side.
I may run the caverns straight up when my daughter's Kingmakers find the caverns. They did meet (and kill) the radish patch kobolds already, and the last encounter of the last session they frayed with
So, they might have a feather in their cap if they choose to use it later on when they meet the kobolds.
|
I can't guarantee it yet, but seeing as my PCs have been taking bandits as prisoners whenever possible instead of killing them outright (some still bleed to death, as our group lacks a PC with Heal, and others fall due to deadly criticals), I'm gonna guess they'll look to settle things with the kobolds diplomatically. Looks like their kingdom might end up populated to some degree with reformed bandits and relatively friendly kobolds. :D
Personally, I'm kinda excited by that possible development; kobolds leading the mining effort, building deadly traps on the nation's contested borders, tunneling under enemy walls and setting off kegs of alchemist's fire... :D
I have one, really twisted player.
I think the player was affected by 'Seven Days to the Grave'
Biowarfare anyone?
My players have a great love for kobolds. There were Kobold NPC henchmen in my 3.5 campaigns. In fact, its any small, evil race that might be "redeemed". The ROTR players have just taken on the only surviving Thistletop Goblin as an NPC henchman (they killed ALL of the other goblins). And my Absalom players picked up a kobold during a side treck on the way back from Hollows Last Hope. (Stranglely enough, they saved him from a group of Mites the Tribe was fighting with over the caves).
Of course, their love might come from "Kobold NPC Luck". I let the players roll for friendly NPC rdice and Kobolds always seem to have amazing luck.
So, I see my players doing their best to ally with the kobolds in KM.
I like the fact that KM has several encounters (the boggard, the kobolds, the faeries) where roleplaying and diplomacy will make for a better resolution.
However, they seem to have a hatred of bandits and those who choose to do evil. I don't like Akiros' chances....
|
|
I have one, really twisted player.
** spoiler omitted **
Heh, is the "twisted player" actually you, Mr. M. Balmer with the Filge avatar? :) I've got my eye on you...
And it's not twisted, it's tactical. It's the drawn-out suffering versus a "clean" kill that would push the boundaries of morality, I would guess. Morality has always been kind of confusing in D&D anyway, IMHO. Burning someone to death? Morally neutral. Blasting them with an equivalent amount of negative energy? Eeeeevil!
My players are much more story and character oriented than combat monsters, which probably means for whatever reason, they'll slaughter all the kobolds, just to screw with my expectations. :P
Not to break any hearts... but I actually DO like kobolds. Quite a lot. I hope that the majority of groups playing Kingmaker DO make friends with the Sootscales, because they're cool! :-)If the PCs want to kill the kobolds... that's fine!That's why I like Paizo so much. James shares so many of my convictions: Kill all kobolds, dwarves are an inferior race that have no rights, probably other things... :D
Would a Sootscale Kobold make an interresting choice for a replacement Player Character? :)
|
Morality has always been kind of confusing in D&D anyway, IMHO. Burning someone to death? Morally neutral. Blasting them with an equivalent amount of negative energy? Eeeeevil!
It's not how you kill 'em, it's why you kill that matters for alignment.
Your person channeling negative energy is not being evil, they;re proving that they are evil because they have access to that energy.
That's my take on it.
Morality has always been kind of confusing in D&D anyway, IMHO. Burning someone to death? Morally neutral. Blasting them with an equivalent amount of negative energy? Eeeeevil!It's not how you kill 'em, it's why you kill that matters for alignment.
Your person channeling negative energy is not being evil, they;re proving that they are evil because they have access to that energy.
That's my take on it.
Really?
A lot of Neutral Clerics of Neutral deities have access to "Channel Negative Energy."
Channel Negative Energy is not always a bad thing either. It is a great way for low level parties to deal with Swarms for example.
|
|
Morality has always been kind of confusing in D&D anyway, IMHO. Burning someone to death? Morally neutral. Blasting them with an equivalent amount of negative energy? Eeeeevil!It's not how you kill 'em, it's why you kill that matters for alignment.
Your person channeling negative energy is not being evil, they;re proving that they are evil because they have access to that energy.
That's my take on it.
Really?
A lot of Neutral Clerics of Neutral deities have access to "Channel Negative Energy."
Channel Negative Energy is not always a bad thing either. It is a great way for low level parties to deal with Swarms for example.
my bad
I was conveniently ignoring neutral in my pfrpg garden of good and evil.
I would suggest that negative energy channeling clerics understand the dark side of their deities.
The main point is that channeling negative energy does not make you evil and is not itself evil,
Not to break any hearts... but I actually DO like kobolds. Quite a lot. I hope that the majority of groups playing Kingmaker DO make friends with the Sootscales, because they're cool! :-)If the PCs want to kill the kobolds... that's fine!That's why I like Paizo so much. James shares so many of my convictions: Kill all kobolds, dwarves are an inferior race that have no rights, probably other things... :D
As long as you don't get any ideas like "treat dwarves like real people", It's okay.
I'm personally for letting most clerics of most deities decide whether they want to be healers or slayers. I would probably make some exceptions (Urgathoa won't let you use positive energy, Serenrae will probably require you to be a good healer, etc.) but in general, it's all about what role you want to play.
Other than that, it is important to remember that Pathfinder never says using positive or negative energy is inherently good or evil. Even though a NG cleric of Serenrae will channel positive energy, he can learn harm and inflict spells and use them without any changes to his alignment.
Would a Sootscale Kobold make an interresting choice for a replacement Player Character? :)Not to break any hearts... but I actually DO like kobolds. Quite a lot. I hope that the majority of groups playing Kingmaker DO make friends with the Sootscales, because they're cool! :-)If the PCs want to kill the kobolds... that's fine!That's why I like Paizo so much. James shares so many of my convictions: Kill all kobolds, dwarves are an inferior race that have no rights, probably other things... :D
That's my plan. I forewarned my players that monster characters would only be allowable if their primary characters figure out a way to "unlock" them. The Sootscales fall easily into that category. Of course, if I end up with a TPK in one of my groups, I may let them all play from the Sootscales perspective for a bit...
My players had better kill those kobolds..or they'll sneak into villages and eat the children! Just think of the children!
Let's hope for the kobolds that the children will be asleep. I don't think a kobold can defeat a child that's awake.
What was their deity's name again? Ah yes: Pathos.
lol, my PCs were gifted with one Sootscale stolen spear each by Mikmek after they liberated him and the idol.
When it's better to make friends with the kobolds than to kill the twisted little runts, I say D&D has lost it's way!
My players had better kill those kobolds..or they'll sneak into villages and eat the children! Just think of the children!
;-)
Ken
I am thinking of the children...and getting hungry!
Baby: the other other white meat.
Our party includes a half-orc Dragon Blooded Sorcerer who might just aqquire a loyal band of servants out off this.