So, according to the rules a Surprise Round occurs when one party or the other is unaware of the other, in which case they are flat-footed (no Dex bonus to AC) and the surprising party gets a free action before the real battle begins. All fine in theory, however it's getting rather ridiculous with all the senses tied into Perception and most of the monsters not having any points into Stealth making their chance to sneak up on foes near nil.
In my current campaign, four of the players are using Halfing Rogues and have their Perception scores as high as they make them with Ranks, Feats, and magical items, that nothing has any chance to sneak up on them!
So here's the story, and the ire of my rant: the four halfing rogues and a hired fighter mercenary are standing in front of a black curtain of darkness in Undermountain - there are several of these in there - when they begin bickering with one another about how to approach the curtain and ignore the blackness at which point, a Beholder (CR 13) hiding behind the curtain wall waiting for it's opportunity to attack fly's into the center of the party - that's what the monster description says it does, to "sow chaos". Alright, fine, so how to handle this surprise ambush? Well according to these, in my opinion, poorly thought out rules, the halfings have to see if they "notice" the beholder in time to react before the "surprise round". The behold has no Hide (3.5) as a class skill, so with a Dex of 14, gets a +2 to its roll. I roll a 10 - about as average as you can get - with it's +2, making his "Hide" 12. These little 9th level halflings have modified Perception scores ranging between 15-21... Yeah, so they all roll their perception checks, and unsurprisingly all pass - even the fighter, so we enter the initiative phase. Well guess what, all but the fighter beat out the beholder and since the halfings are all flanking it since it charged into the center of their party, they murder the thing with sneak attack damage and their regular attacks before the beholder even gets off a single attack with its 10-eye stalks!
Vastly underpowered CR 13 monster? Or ridiculous "surprise" rules that don't allow any monster to actually "surprise" it's quarry? 2nd Edition has the whole 1-2-or-3 in 12 chance to not be surprised bit which I felt was much better than the current system. I don't know, maybe I'm just biased having played with these halfing rogues so long. Perhaps a surprise system based on Reflex saves would be better?
Thoughts on how to improve this system? Because I guess I'm going to be using 2nd edition rules for surprise checks for now on until I can find or devise a better method. It's ruining my game! I mean, come on, imagine soldiers in the battle field (think Marines here) hiding in the bushes waiting to ambush their quarry having no chance to "ambush" their foes in the Pathfinders system against a group of rogues because they don't have Stealth as a class skill, meaning even if they invest into it, it will never be high enough to surprise a Rogue of comparable level, but this is so unrealistic in terms of actually surprising someone, it's simply broken.
Chief Technical Officer
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The rules say: "When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised... Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks."
Note the word "may" in there... if you don't think there's any chance the party has seen the attackers, then go ahead and let them be surprised.
Also note that "other checks" may be appropriate. If you think reflex makes more sense than perception in a specific circumstance, use reflex!
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Keep in mind you could have thrown modifiers at them. -2 for not actively searching since they were in a debate. You could always give the beholder a level in Rogue or Ranger :). Now it has the stealth skill. Make it a midget beholder with the small size (+4 stealth).
Throw a few warforged juggernauts with heavy fortification at them. No sneak attack.
Hell throw Evil Halfling Rogues at them.
Also, in the situation that you are describing, I'm not sure its fair to extrapolate a problem in the rules as opposed to the creature and its tactics.
There are plenty of monsters that have ranks in stealth, as well as abilities that allow them to go invisible or cast darkness or what have you. I've seriously injured parties with drow arcane tricksters before, for example.
A beholder is not only not stealthy, but for a powerful monster, it really sucks as a melee combatant. The last thing any beholder wants to do is get in melee range with his opponents.
No, no, no.
Did the beholder know the party was there? They were "bickering with one another" so it should have heard them.
The beholder now AUTOMATICALLY gets a surprise round - it knows of the PCs and they don't know of it. Surprise!
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.
I know what you're thinking. The PCs get a Perception check to avoid being surprised.
Nope.
The beholder was silent (not talking, not walking, not doing anything to make any sound). And it was behind total concealment (the black curtain of Darkness - darkness provides total concealment). So by definition the PCs had no line of sight and no audible sound to detect. Unless you want them to smell the beholder, there is no perception check to make here.
And the beholder needs no stealth roll. Magical wingless flight is silent. No footsteps to hear, no flapping wings, no jet engine, nothing at all to hear. And with total concealment, it can simply spring (figure of speach, I don't think beholders actually "spring") and attack in its automatic surprise round.
Oh, and a final thought: if you really wanted to allow some kind of perception check, the very best result would be for the PCs to see the incoming Beholder just in the nick of time - maybe they're not flatfooted, but they absolutely don't get to go in the Beholder's surprise round. The beholder will definitely attack first, either against surprised and flatfooted PCs or against unsruprised PCs who made a perception check. And there is no way for the rogues to get sneak attacks against the flatfooted beholder since the beholder is not flatfooted. And any beholder that lets rogues flank it deserves to die.
Me, I would have run it this way:
Before combat: beholder is already levitating high enough off the floor to be out of reach of all those melee attacks - if the room is not tall enough, I as a DM would alter this fact and make it tall enough or put my beholder in a different room; these things are smart and never suicidal. It is hovering just barely inside the curtain of darkness.
Surprise round: Beholder peeks out with just a couple eyestalks and sees non-mage targets. It's smart enough to know the difference. It immediately judges to use rays that require Will-saves, so it blasts someone, probably at random, but most likely the guy in all the armor, or the guy with the scariest ranged weapon.
Now we roll initiatives.
Round 1: PCs have to spot the one little eye that is poking out of the darkness 20' overhead. Since the eyeball is the only part visible, we don't use the whole size modifier. I would say the eye is Diminutive, so the beholder's Stealth check is Ranks in Stealth + DEX Mod + 12. Even for those rogues, this is still a decent DC for them to have to find. If they can't find the eye, they can't attack. Once one of them finds it, that guy can point it out to the rest of them, but some of them may have missed their first round by not seeing the beholder's little eye.
Other rounds: Since the beholder is 20' up, the PCs cannot flank it or melee it. Ideally, if I could, I would make him more like 50' up, or higher even (no point-blank feat, lots of range increments for thrown weapons, etc.).
Your group might have found it interesting to have to beat this thing by throwing daggers and javelins, or shooting crossbows, with no sneak attacks and no power attacks.
This fight could have been run on the Beholder's terms. And it should have been, since beholders are very smart and this one knew the territory and should have picked a battleground that gave it all the advantage.
I have a couple questions for you.
1. I'll assume the beholder knew about the PC's by the noise they made?
2. Could the beholder see the PC's through the curtain?
3. Could the PC's see the beholder through the curtain?
I would think a beholder hovering over the ground wouldn't make any noise, so unless the PC's could see it coming, it should have gotten an automatic surprise round.
DM Blake makes a good point, but even if you do want to give them a perception check, according to the rules there is a +1 to the DC for every 10 feet away the characters are, so that's one factor, and if the PCs are distracted, the DC increases by 5. Not monumental gains, but it definitely creates a greater margin of error.
And now to address your real question: Does surprise generally suck?
Yes and no.
You're right, not much in the book is good at stealth. But let's be fair. Four rogues? FOUR? Gimme a break - nothing is gonna sneak up on these guys. At least one of them is probably going to roll well...
Remember, the PCs only get to make Perception checks when there is something to perceive. It's perfectly fine to rule that there is nothing to see or hear, so there will be no Perception checks. A perfect example is Total Concealment (as in your beholder example that I explained above).
So, if you really want to ambush these guys, do it with stuff they cannot perceive.
A wraith lurking 6 inches below the floor. Wraiths don't make noise, and since it's hiding in solid stone, it cannot be seen either. No Perception checks.
A bullette or ankheg doing much the same thing, hiding below ground, perfectly still, waiting for prey. This is how they hunt.
A black dragon hiding below the surface of a marshy bog. A white dragon hiding below the surface of a snowdrift. A red dragon hiding in lava.
Elementals bursting out of pools, furnaces, the ground, or thin air.
Animated statues and/or golems that let the party walk right past them then suddenly burst into action - these things don't breath, they never itch or sneeze or blink or cough or even have a twitchy eye flutter. They literally hide in plain sight.
Use magical darkness, or mist, fog, etc, to create areas of concealment. Use background noise like waterfalls or noisy streams or roaring furnaces or howling wind to mask the slight sounds that living creatures might make while they hide. Undermountain should be full of this stuff.
Don't hesitate to select the right monsters. Sure, minotaurs suck at stealth. They don't hide and ambush. They much prefer to charge into battle, roaring battlecries and trampling foes. Trolls are like that too. So are ogres. So are T-Rexes. So don't use them to sneak up on people.
Remember, all it takes is for the monster to know the PCs are there. Use an Alarm spell. Have the monster sitting where it can watch the only door. Put a puddle of water in the hallway - even a rogue with a ring of invisibility will disturb that puddle, and a clever minotaur will see the ripples...
So now your minotaur is not surprised, and he charges into battle. Not flat-footed. No sneak attacks. If the rogues maneuver to flank him for their sneak attacks, well, that's a different question and not part of a discussion about surprise rounds.
And finally, don't forget that this group is quite literally built for stealth, ambushes, and perception. They chose not to worry about healing, spells, magic, etc., in order to have certain strengths. It's generally considered bad DMing to "rip them off" by constantly using situations that prevent them from using their strengths. Do it sometimes, but not all the time.
In other words, this group should spot most ambushes, foil most surprises, and should be able to sneak up on many enemies. It's what they do. Reward them for having these skills by letting them use them.
And then, hit them with a bunch of encounters that force them to make lots of Will saves, and remind them that there is a price for their excellence at all this sneaky/perception stuff, and that price is being really bad at magic stuff.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Before DM Blake ninja'ed me, I'd written:
I agree. I agree. Having said that, though, these characters obviously think that sky-high Perception is important to them. At this point in their careers, with that kind of devotion (skill ranks, feats, attributes, etc.) they're functioning at superhuman levels of observation. I don't think it's out of the question to allow the Beholder a surprise round, but it wouldn't be out of the question to ask for a DC 30 Perception check to catch the featherlight sound of its armored plates grinding as the the eyestalks turn and its maw opens in a terrible grin, or to sense the gouts of foul air it exhales as it pants in excitement.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I generally agree with those saying that the beholder should've received an automatic surprise round. However, I don't know that it would've made a difference based on the description you provided. The beholder only gets a single standard action in a surprise round and, from what was included in the OP, it sounds like that standard action was used to fly into the middle of the party.
If the beholder had only moved in front of the curtain of darkness, I would've said that its surprise round began right after it became visible, and it could've moved through the curtain (but would have to stop immediately on the other side) and fired off an eye ray. If it moved any further than that, I would count that movement as the sole standard action for the surprise round.
I generally agree with those saying that the beholder should've received an automatic surprise round. However, I don't know that it would've made a difference based on the description you provided. The beholder only gets a single standard action in a surprise round and, from what was included in the OP, it sounds like that standard action was used to fly into the middle of the party.
If the beholder had only moved in front of the curtain of darkness, I would've said that its surprise round began right after it became visible, and it could've moved through the curtain (but would have to stop immediately on the other side) and fired off an eye ray. If it moved any further than that, I would count that movement as the sole standard action for the surprise round.
But that is precisely my predicament! First, to answer a few of Blake's questions:
> The floor to the ceiling in Undermountain, in this area anyways, is always 12-15 feet high.
> The beholder was right behind the curtain of blackness - I mean literally almost touching it.
> The beholder could hear the PC party very well and knew exactly when to attack.
> The PC's were just about in the same position as the beholder, but on the other side.
I let them make a Perception check because, once the beholder came into view, they had a chance to "see" it before it surprise attacked them. I'm going to quote a section of the 3.5 Monster Manual here, "Combat: Beholders often attack without provocation. Though not powerful physically, they often plow right into a group of opponents to use as many of their eyes as they can. When closing with an enemy, a beholder tries to cause as much disruption and confusion as possible."
This says to me that the beholder is willing and should intentionally crash the party by plowing into them. I mean, it says it right there in the rules! I know beholders aren't stupid (Int of 17), but he knows he's got the upper hand here, and if he had the surprise round to use, then all this would be a non-issue, but alas I'm just following the rules. If I may explain:
I find it amusing that everyone here is arguing in the Beholders favor this time around, but last time I had a similar situation come up that I posted about on these forums where the PC's were being ambushed from behind by some Rouges in the treeline of the forest they just exited, everyone on these forums suggested the party should receive a Perception check to notice them before they (the enemies) fired off their attacks for the surprise round. Another situation I proposed in the same topic mentioned a cleric being attacked from behind by a foe with "Superior Invisibility" on. Again, everyone on these forums insisted the victim receive a Perception check, no matter how impossible, to have the chance to perceive something amiss. Using that logic, these halflings had a chance to "see" the beholder before it attacked, without a doubt.
@Blake: RE: Eye-stalks only through the curtain: Yes, that is a good idea and I'm ashamed to not of thought of it myself during the battle. But I don't feel I played the beholder incorrectly using the description of what is in the MM.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Hmmm...
Okay, first let's set aside the issue of the Perception check before the beholder crossed the curtain. I can see playing that either way - you could rule that there is absolutely nothing for the player's to detect, and hence no surprise round, or you could rule that they can make a roll but set the DC very high.
So, let's assume that the PCs did not (or could not) detect the beholder prior to it moving through the curtain. When does the surprise round start? I don't think the answer can be that it starts before the beholder moves through the curtain. A surprise round really only exists in the context of a combat encounter, and prior to moving through the curtain, there was no combat encounter.
The combat encounter began once the beholder moved through the curtain. As soon as it became visible, combat began, everyone entered combat time, and the concept of a surprise round came into play. The beholder moved through the curtain knowing an enemy was present, knowing that the enemy would detect it as soon as it moved through the curtain, and was prepared to fight. The PCs had no idea anything dangerous was on the other side of the curtain, a threat arrived without them being aware of its presence, and they were not prepared to fight. It seems like the beholder must've been entitled to a surprise round at that point - the fact that the PCs became aware of it as it crossed the curtain doesn't change the fact that they were not expecting combat and were not prepared for it. Plus, IIRC, rogues already have a class ability that allows them to not be flat-footed even when surprised - this ability would seem to reflect the fact that their massive awareness does have some affect on the combat.
Being in the middle of the party is one of the more effective things a beholder can do, so I think it's right to try and move it into that position, but if the choices are move or attack, I'd probably have the beholder attack instead of move. That being said, most parties don't have four rogues in them, so it could just be that moving into the center of the party was the right tactic, but that tactic assumes the party includes some magic reliant members who would be crippled by the beholder's anti-magic eye. The beholder might have used appropriate tactics, but on the wrong targets, and wouldn't really have a reason to know that before it attacked.
Alright, then to set the record straight once and for all on the Surprise Round scenario: If one party engages the other party in combat and they were not expecting combat, that party is surprised without a Perception check!
The reason being because offering the possibility of a Perception check brings up all kinds of arguments, such as: "Well a Reflex save is made in milliseconds of reactive decision, so if I saw this thing "appear" in front of me and had up to several seconds before it engages us, why wouldn't I get a Perception check?" Then of course the rebuttal,
"A surprise round really only exists in the context of a combat encounter, and prior to moving through the curtain, there was no combat encounter.
The combat encounter began once the beholder moved through the curtain. As soon as it became visible, combat began, everyone entered combat time, and the concept of a surprise round came into play. The beholder moved through the curtain knowing an enemy was present, knowing that the enemy would detect it as soon as it moved through the curtain, and was prepared to fight. The PCs had no idea anything dangerous was on the other side of the curtain, a threat arrived without them being aware of its presence, and they were not prepared to fight. It seems like the beholder must've been entitled to a surprise round at that point"
These circular arguments could go on forever, along with the other arguments I brought up:
> PC goes "Superior Invisibility", sneaks up to another PC who is busy reading his spellbook and totally unaware of his surroundings, then performs a Coup De Grace. I'd like to mention that it has been argued that no matter how insane the circumstances, a Perception check is guaranteed in ANY circumstance, thus the wizard should get a Perception check, no matter how slim his chance, to notice something amiss. This *new* rule on surprise encounters, which apparently trumps all known rules on Perception, supersedes this and replaces it with:
If one party engages the other party in combat and they were not expecting combat, that party is surprised without a Perception check
NOTE: I could not find my original post. I must have either made it under a different registered member, or on a different forum (embarrassing).
> NPC sniping from treeline example: Party walks out of a forest following a thin trail leading out to open, flat plains after dusk (it is night). NPC robbers use this area to ambush parties; they are concealed in foliage, darkness, full-coverage (just listening to footsteps) until PC party is out in the open with their backs facing them before they attack. I've been told the PC party here also gets a Perception check on the off chance one of them turned to look back at the treeline and saw something amiss before the surprise attack.
> My Dragon hiding example: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/archives/quickQuestionAboutHidingDragons&page=1#0
I'm just frustrated that the rules aren't more clearly spelled out for Surprise encounters. Why wouldn't the PC's get Perception checks? Aren't PC's always entitled to a Perception check to detect danger? I'm sure the situations I brought up here fit the bill of gray areas that "may" get a Perception check - as Tech Director Vic mentioned - however the majority here are telling me a surprise round is just that, and there is no chance to not be surprised - someone even mentioned that Rogues retain their Dex to AC as proof of concept how they are very aware and retain their footing even in a surprise round. I can go with this.
So this is the ruling I will use from now on regarding surprise encounters - You simply are surprised by ambush-style attacks: no detection checks of any type.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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As I said, I'm sympathetic to the argument that there should be a Perception check, but that Perception check should be made for when the beholder is behind the curtain, not miliseconds after it pops out. Having the PCs make a Perception check as the ambush is triggered doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If the Perception check prior to the ambush fails (or the ambusher cannot be detected through any sense the PCs have) then, yes, the PCs do not get another bite at the apple and do not make a new Perception check.
And, at this point, my sympathy is out. Don't bother responding if you're just going to build absurd straw men out of what I post. I tried to help, but if you want to be a dick, go ask back at the other message board to see if someone there wants to waste their time.
As I said, I'm sympathetic to the argument that there should be a Perception check, but that Perception check should be made for when the beholder is behind the curtain, not miliseconds after it pops out. Having the PCs make a Perception check as the ambush is triggered doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If the Perception check prior to the ambush fails (or the ambusher cannot be detected through any sense the PCs have) then, yes, the PCs do not get another bite at the apple and do not make a new Perception check.
And, at this point, my sympathy is out. Don't bother responding if you're just going to build absurd straw men out of what I post. I tried to help, if you want to be a dick, go ask back at the other message board to see if someone there wants to waste their time.
Whoa there boy, I think someone took what I said as a personal attack when in actuality I'm only trying to discuss the subject matter at hand. I appreciate your take on my question and have been enlightened by what you have said, so don't feel that your words were wasted, however I do have my own opinion, same as you do. Just because we don't agree does not make me a "dick". These "straw-men" to which you refer are real in-game examples I have brought up in the past which never got fully resolved. If you somehow feel I used these examples as leverage against you, then I regret to inform you that you are in error in your logic because, worth repeating, I was attacking the subject matter and Pathfinders take on the Surprise Round, not you. If this is about my quoting you, I only used your quote because it was quite fitting with the example I was giving, but please don't take it personally. Would you like me to retract my quote of your example and replace it with something more original? Because I can't think of any other reason why you would take what I said personally when I never attacked you, nor meant too.
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Whoa there boy, I think someone took what I said as a personal attack when in actuality I'm only trying to discuss the subject matter at hand.
I'm trying to figure out if you are being deliberately obtuse and argumentative or are just not reading posts or what. Sebastian and several other folks have put up some rather well worded posts on how the rules are generally interpreted. You clearly have a problem with the rules but rather than saying "Hey you're right, I should use them that way" you choose to argue and split hairs about "RAW SAYS THIS".
Blake, Sebastian, Vic, Mortika, and several others... pretty much all concur and gave you some good solid advice on how to improve your GMing but you are choosing to ignore that so you can rant about your apparently rigid interpretation of the rules which you admit is pretty crappy.
So quit whining about people taking things personal and trying to argue and read what folks said because that's pretty much the way almost all good GMs would have run the encounter.
Not to be argumentative, but sometimes it just falls on the GM to make their decision, adjudicate the situation and move on. There is no 'right' answer to cover all the bases. In many cases, I allow perception checks to be made, ambushers from the wood line, assassins in the dark (an altogether different argument, but occupied in study is not helpless), or typical standard attack methods that one would be expecting I think most experienced adventurers would get some sort of check even if it is very difficult.
Forms of attack that would come from unnatural methods involving some forms of magic and extenuating circumstances I would not allow perception checks. When these circumstances occur is simply up to the DM. The hidden beholder for example, he's aware of the party and they arent aware of him, he has time to determine if he wishes to attack or not, formulate a simple plan and then initiate it all before the PC's know he's there. They're surprised.
Along other lines, if you felt the beholder would have made for a better fight using other means, then certainly feel free to do so. Maybe this particular beholder has had bad luck with simply charging groups of adventurers in the past, barely escaped, and is feeling a little gun shy. As the DM, dont let the rules or the book crowd out you having fun or telling the story you want to tell in the method you prefer to tell it.
But that is precisely my predicament! First, to answer a few of Blake's questions:
> The floor to the ceiling in Undermountain, in this area anyways, is always 12-15 feet high.
> The beholder was right behind the curtain of blackness - I mean literally almost touching it.
> The beholder could hear the PC party very well and knew exactly when to attack.
> The PC's were just about in the same position as the beholder, but on the other side.I let them make a Perception check because, once the beholder came into view, they had a chance to "see" it before it surprise attacked them. I'm going to quote a section of the 3.5 Monster Manual here, "Combat: Beholders often attack without provocation. Though not powerful physically, they often plow right into a group of opponents to use as many of their eyes as they can. When closing with an enemy, a beholder tries to cause as much disruption and confusion as possible."
This says to me that the beholder is willing and should intentionally crash the party by plowing into them. I mean, it says it right there in the rules! I know beholders aren't stupid (Int of 17), but he knows he's got the upper hand here, and if he had the surprise round to use, then all this would be a non-issue, but alas I'm just following the rules. If I may explain:
@Blake: RE: Eye-stalks only through the curtain: Yes, that is a good idea and I'm ashamed to not of thought of it myself during the battle. But I don't feel I played the beholder incorrectly using the description of what is in the MM.
Yes, you're quite right on all counts regarding beholders. But note that the quoted text says "often" in two places. And note that the boholders are naturally smarter than all but the most elite human wizards and scholars.
So, I read that to mean that a beholder will assess the situation, and will enjoy plowing into a group of obviously weaker foes. I read it to mean that it's smart enough to recognize dangerous foes and to soften them up with clever uses of natural terrain and stealth, then when only a couple weak ones are left, it will give in to the urge to plow into the enemies.
I also read it to mean that a beholder is smart enough to choose the battlefield before the encounter (unless it is caught by surprise). Don't forget that it has its own built in tunneling tool, a disintigrate ray. Perfect for digging pits and escape tunnels, vaporizing some parts of the ceiling to make a short room taller, etc.
I once had a beholder tunnel under a room's floor and disintegrate a dozen or so shafts right below the floor, leaving only about an inch of stone. The players kept falling into these barely covered pits, but they couldn't detect them because, unlike a pit with a hinged floor, these pits had no seams, no hinges, no visible clue where they were. Ooooh, was my wizard-player mad when he fell through the floor into a 60' deep pit and cast featherfall - only to have the beholder turn his central eye and negate that spell then laugh as the wizard fell to his near-death.
To be clear:
Surprise requires at least someone in the battle to be ready to fight, and at least someone in the battle to be unaware of the surprise attack. If everyone is ready, there is no surprise. If nobody is ready, there is no surprise (or you could let everyone make a surprise action, but there is no benefit to doing a bunch of half-rounds in round zero before beginning round one).
So for surprise to happen, somebody is aware of his enemy and is ambushing that enemy, and at least some of that enemy have not yet detected the ambush.
Once the ambush is sprung, it's too late to make perception checks to avoid the surprise. As soon as the first guy fires his bow, casts his spell, charges, whatever - at that instant all perception checks have ended.
If you want to use Perception to see your enemy and avoid being surprised, you must do so before they spring their ambush. Maybe you're walking down a road, and some brigands are hiding in the trees. Roll Perception to see them hiding there. If you succeed, you won't be surprised. If you fail, you will be surprised.
But if those brigands are all hiding in a mist (total concealment) near a waterfall (much louder than their breathing), don't expect me to give you any chance to roll a perception check. Of course, they don't know you're there either, unless your bard is playing his bagpipes...
Thank-you to everyone who responded to my thread. I now have the answer I was looking for and will no longer be responding to this tread. If you want to continue any conversation with me personally, feel free to email me - I will respond back. Much appreciation to those who answered with sound logic and reason, and who supported their arguments with stated rules, which without, this fine game would not exist.
To wrap this up, and my final post in this thread, I normally don't respond to trolls, but I'll eat the worm this time:
Whoa there boy, I think someone took what I said as a personal attack when in actuality I'm only trying to discuss the subject matter at hand.I'm trying to figure out if you are being deliberately obtuse and argumentative or are just not reading posts or what.
Am I not reading posts? Did you have trouble reading what I wrote? Allow me to quote myself here for you:
Alright, then to set the record straight once and for all on the Surprise Round scenario:
Wow, first sentence of the post Sebastian took offense towards says it all. I'm trying to close out this discussion once and for all and this person takes it as a "personal attack"? Smooth.
Let me finish my quote:
If one party engages the other party in combat and they were not expecting combat, that party is surprised without a Perception check!
Yes Ogre, you are correct. Everybody has been saying THIS the entire time, and I took the time to reiterate it so that it was clear for myself and everybody else, ONCE AND FOR ALL. Once again I ask you, did YOU have trouble reading MY post, because I thought my intentions were clear? You certianly had no trouble at all jumping on the bandwagon to cut me down, yet you criticize me for defending myself against acquisitions of being a "dick". People like you really cut the charm on forums like these.
You clearly have a problem with the rules but rather than saying "Hey you're right, I should use them that way" you choose to argue and split hairs about "RAW SAYS THIS".
Read my above paragraph.
Blake, Sebastian, Vic, Mortika, and several others... pretty much all concur and gave you some good solid advice on how to improve your GMing but you are choosing to ignore that...
You sure are getting a lot out of what I said when I never disagreed with any of these posters. As a matter of fact, at the very start of my post which is in contention (the one before Sebastian's last post), I'm agreeing with them! The rest of my post after that gives some examples I had during my personal gaming experiences where situations like this came into play, but for whatever reason all you choose to see was me "ignoring" everyone's good advise. You must be riding a high horse.
...so you can rant about your apparently rigid interpretation of the rules which you admit is pretty crappy.
Rigid? I'm asking for rules clarification here on something that has dragged down my game for over a year!!! Perhaps I am not in the right forums? Maybe this isn't Pathfinder Rules Questions, but Theoretical Playstyles where anything goes? And to be clear on the matter, I said in my original post - the first one of this topic - that the rules which handle "surprise rounds" could use a fine polish because as I understood them, they were broken. So am I to understand you agree with me that perception checks don't work well with "surprise rounds", because that's the only thing I referred to as being remotely "crappy", a mute point now if you had read my post which was/is in contention (to clarify, that is the one right before Sebastian's last post, although I'm sure I've already mentioned that in this post).
So quit whining about people taking things personal and trying to argue...
Quid Pro Quo anyone? There I was defending my post against someone who clearly misunderstood my post as a personal attack for whatever reason, and now your jumping to the rescue of said individual, sir valiant Ogre with hit cutting witticism, ready to slay any forumer he feels violates his code of ethos by calling them whiners. There is a term for people like you: Bullies. Like I said before, its people like you who tarnish forums like these.
...and read what folks said because that's pretty much the way almost all good GMs would have run the encounter.
Now we get the heart and soul of what your REALLY trying to say here. You think I made a bad decision as a DM? Well why didn't you just come out and say that from the get go instead of this song and dance? Trying to impress the regulars I take it? So let me get this straight: because I didn't do what you would have done in this same situation, I am a "bad" DM, and furthermore, everyone else who is a "good" DM would have most definitely done what you would have done because all "good" DM's do the same things, correct? Right... and things must be pretty simple in your small sect of the world. Wave "hi" to grandpa for me.
There are things called "circumstance bonuses" and they can be used to surprise the party. The proper disguise or war paint should help disguise that party of orcs. Although it is true that a party of 4 rogues should be difficult to sneak up and attack, they can be ambushed just fine. Hide enemies in upper levels, on cliffs, in alcoves with readied actions to fire/move/charge the party when they come into range. Heck a minotaur with a few levels of fighter hiding behind a corner with a prepared action to charge and backed up by a beholder should be a challenging encounter. Also enemies can hide underground, in sewers, foxholes, ditches, and other places and jump out to attack the party. And Don't forget invisibility, cheap, reliable, and great for ambushes.
However, just because your party has a number of rogues and is hard to ambush and sneak up on doesn't mean that you should go out of your way to sneak up on them and ambush them. If they have 4 rogues they should be lacking something else. What would they do if you sent them against elementals or oozes.
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Assuming that the curtain provides total cover (i.e. the Beholder simply cannot be seen whilst he is the other side) then any Perception check to avoid Surprise would be sound based. The DC to hear someone walking is DC 10, to hear a whispered conversation is DC 15 and to hear a key turning in a lock is DC 20. So I don't think it unreasonable to argue a beholder just floating (not even moving) would be a base DC of at least 15, if not 20. The PCs also sounded distracted so they receive a further +5 DC. If they had been further than 10 feet away the DC would increase by a further +1.
So without the Beholder even making a Stealth check the DC to hear it before it launches itself into the room is at least 20 if not 25 - not hard for the PCs you mention, but not a given. It isn't clear in these circumstances, but if the beholder did have Stealth, I would make the roll and use the higher of the roll or that static base DC (i.e. the DC before the modifiers for distraction).
Of course this assumes that the Beholder's Surprise round action is to move out from behind the curtain (either as a Move Action, in which case he doesn't get an attack) or as a 5 foot step (in which case it would get a Standard Action).
In terms of the other scenarios about ambushes by foes in a treeline - it is likely that they wouldn't have total concealment and so there would be a chance to spot them (perhaps spot a shadow, or a piece of clothing sticking out from cover etc).
For an invisible foe sneaking up on someone - the act of moving (where the move is not part of the Surprise round action) would cause some sound (DC 10 for walking or Stealth check whichever is higher) and thus a chance to notice the foe and avooid surprise.
I hope that helps.
I am baffled that no one suggested waves of minions.
Anything like a Beholder should have some low level fodder to throw out at an enemy. Mechanically this is so they don't get caught up in a surprise round. It also allows them to set their enemies up.
Also, many people on this thread need to remember Wheatons First Law. Look it up if you're curious.
I don't believe the players should be penalized for making efficient characters. They know what they're weakness' are and figure that superhuman perception and stealth will get them out of most jams. That's rather intuitive and reflective of real life. If automatic surprise rounds are to be enforced then feats that get around this should be introduced. It's what these players will want. So unless people want their players to feel undermined and compell them to play Pathfinder elsewhere then maybe GM's should find ways for everyone to have fun.
You guys are WAAAAY over thinking this and forgetting a few things.
If the beholder wants to get a surprise round, he does. The perception check is to see if any of the PCs get to act on the surprise round. Initiative is rolled and anyone who made the perception check gets to make a standard action in initiative order. Normal combat proceeds in initiative order after the surprise round.
If the rogues do not have a weapon out, or do not have quick draw, good luck doing anything substantial.
The perception check is to see if you can act in the surprise round, that's it. It's not as game breaking as it's being made to be.
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So here's the story, and the ire of my rant: the four halfing rogues and a hired fighter mercenary are standing in front of a black curtain of darkness in Undermountain - there are several of these in there - when they begin bickering with one another about how to approach the curtain and ignore the blackness at which point, a Beholder (CR 13) hiding behind the curtain wall waiting for it's opportunity to attack fly's into the center of the party - that's what the monster description says it does, to "sow chaos".
Alright, fine, so how to handle this surprise ambush? Well according to these, in my opinion, poorly thought out rules, the halfings have to see if they "notice" the beholder in time to react before the "surprise round". The behold has no Hide (3.5) as a class skill, so with a Dex of 14, gets a +2 to its roll. I roll a 10 - about as average as you can get - with it's +2, making his "Hide" 12. These little 9th level halflings have modified Perception scores ranging between 15-21... Yeah, so they all roll their perception checks, and unsurprisingly all pass - even the fighter, so we enter the initiative phase. Well guess what, all but the fighter beat out the beholder and since the halfings are all flanking it since it charged into the center of their party, they murder the thing with sneak attack damage and their regular attacks before the beholder...
What a horrid job you did running this encounter.
What type of action did the beholder use to fly into the center of the party? Answer: Move action.
When did the Beholder do this action? Before initiative was rolled.
Next Question: If they were all standing around arguing, how was there enough space in between them for a Large (10'x10') creature to fit? DM wanted a dead beholder, so he made sure his 4 rogues were flanking it.
EDIT And even this is wrong, as Beholders have all-around vision and CANNOT BE FLANKED
Why does the Beholder get a move action before initiative is rolled?
Because the DM ran the encounter not in accordance to the rules he is now questioning/complaining about.
What was the result? Dead Beholder.
Surprise!
Oh, and Beholder has a +12 to Hide . So you were wrong about that too. If you gave the bonuses for being Invisible (behind the cutain) +20, and the +5 for the perceiving characters being distracted, you would have had a total result of 47 with your 10 roll. As in, the Beholder gains surprise. Even with their perceptions at +21, the best they could have rolled was 41.
So, to answer your initial question, no the rules aren't bad, they just weren't being used very well.
Suggestion: go back and re-run the encounter according to the rules and see how it actually plays out. You may find it's actually a pretty dangerous fight for a bunch of rogues, what with all the Fort and Will saves involved.
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More Arguing
Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do thing this way.
Doctor: Stop doing it that way.
Patient: I really like doing it that way and that's the way I think we're supposed to do it.
Doctor: Umm, well no one else does it that way because... it's painful.
Patient: No really look here, this is the way you are supposed to do it!
Whatever dude, enjoy your game.
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Was this an actual, published encounter?
Because if it is, the writer should hang his head.
An underpowered CR13 encounter, or...?
More like a CR0 encounter.
Any creature that uses none of its actual abilities is not worthy of of a single xp.A flying creature, with 10 ranged attacks/round, one of which is a disintegrate beam, wedged into a cramped space at perfect melee height.
A beholder's lair should be an insane tangle of tunnels, many of them vertical, and trapped to the roof by the army of charmed slaves it commands.
It had slaves, right?
Tell me it had an army of charmed slaves, please.
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Thoughts on how to improve this system? Because I guess I'm going to be using 2nd edition rules for surprise checks for now on until I can find or devise a better method. It's ruining my game! I mean, come on, imagine soldiers in the battle field (think Marines here) hiding in the bushes waiting to ambush their quarry having no chance to "ambush" their foes in the Pathfinders system against a group of rogues because they don't have Stealth as a class skill, meaning even if they invest into it, it will never be high enough to surprise a Rogue of comparable level, but this is so unrealistic in terms of actually surprising someone, it's simply broken.
To continue telling you how to actually use the rules you're trying to complain about:
1) Marines would have Stealth as a class skill. They're taught camoflage and stealth. They also have equipment that would give them some kind of bonus (let's say +2).
2) Ambush attacks rely on tactics and timing as well as skill. This usually means your Perception check is going to be at Unfavorable Conditions (+2 to DC)
3) How close are the ambushers to the point they're ambushing? +1 to perception DC per 10'.
4) Is there something you can set up to distract the perceiver? If so, +5 more to their DC.
Juxtapose this to what you say about who is trying to perceive the threat: Halfling Rogues Racially, they are designed to be better than humans at perception. They have keen senses. Then, add the fact that they are trained observers of the most paranoid kind, who spend their lives looking for the unexpected around every corner, because that's their job , and I'd say the system works perfectly. If you want to surprise the buggers, you damn well better be trained and readied or it's not going to happen. Because it's not supposed to.
I suggest this thread be closed on the basis that people can't stop being dicks.
While Reckless's tone leaves much to be desired, he's got some good points. Before you trash the rules, I would suggest auditing your use of them to make sure that you did, in fact, use them correctly. Did you give the beholder the full benefits the rules would give him?
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While Reckless's tone leaves much to be desired, he's got some good points. Before you trash the rules, I would suggest auditing your use of them to make sure that you did, in fact, use them correctly. Did you give the beholder the full benefits the rules would give him?
Eran asked that people stop being passive-aggressive and say what they mean, so that's what I did.
You think I made a bad decision as a DM? Well why didn't you just come out and say that from the get go instead of this song and dance?
He also said that his last post was to be his last in this thread; true to his word, he opened another thread directed at me (specifically) asking for clarification on all-around vision. I suspect you'll find my "tone" in that thread more "friendly".
I have a lot of respect for his part in that thread. Here, some very unproductive comments had already been made (on both sides) and I thought it appropriate to cut through the B.S. and point out the issues with the session as described. And, as I noted in that thread, I, too, have been guilty of doing a horrible job running creatures I was unfamiliar with, just as Eran did here.
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I have always been of the mind that Perception, as a skill is not meant for everyone... I believe that the original intention was to use Perception (Spot/Listen) checks to notice things that were either attempting to sneak past or hide something from the target. So the skill was for people that were EXCEPTIONALLY observant... say like Sherlock Holmes, and the like.
It has become the MUST HAVE skill for characters simply based on the use that DMs make of it. I, myself, am guilty of this little fact. I am trying to train myself to use it less and less, making it much more survivable to get by without it. (Making Rogues and other sneaky types, that much more effective.)
It is still work in progress, but I hope to find that place for Perception as it was intended.
I would extract some of the logic from Hero System, that split perception rolls into five senses. When you buy invisibility, you actually become invisible towards one sense.
That said, I would have ruled that the beholder is effectively invisible to the hearing sense, and was behind total concealment regarding the sight sense.
All in all I would have given him a +20 to the hide check due to "invisibility towards hearing".