If I possess the feat "Agile Maneuvers", and I make a successful combat maneuver check to grapple a foe, thereby gaining the grappled condition, do I then incur a -2 penalty on subsequent combat maneuver checks as a result of the -4 DEX that accompanies the grappled condition?
Seems a bit odd to punish DEX based grapplers more than STR based ones, especially in regard to further combat maneuver checks. That's like saying that I'm suddenly not as good at grappling someone simply because I just grappled someone.
Can anyone enlighten me?
Okay, I realize thats what it says RAW. My question is, does the one who initiated the grapple suffer the penalty as well? Or just the creature being grappled?
And if he does, does this penalty (-2 to CMB for grapplers with Agile Maneuvers) apply in addition to the standard -2 to atk and CMB that the condition gives?
Does the DEX penalty not apply when making further grapple checks, like the condition states, or does it?
By the rules, it seems that it should. However, it seems a very reasonable house rule to modify the grapple condition to state that neither penalty applies to checks made to grapple or escape the grapple.
Yeah, I guess you guys are right. The RAW suck for dex based grapplers :(
Thanks anyway.
Okay, I realize thats what it says RAW. My question is, does the one who initiated the grapple suffer the penalty as well? Or just the creature being grappled?
My understanding is yes, a grappler with Agile Maneuvers gets worse at grappling once the grapple starts. At least it's somewhat compensated for by the +5 bonus on grapple checks on succeeding rounds.
Why would you take Agile Maneuvers for grappling? That's completely illogical, it's meant to let high dexterity but low strength characters do things like Trip and Disarm effectively.
Illogical or not, I tried it with a character. It worked just fine for me (the +5 bonus on subsequent rounds helps a lot).
Note that the other guy has a lower CMD too though due to the -4 dex.
I see what you are saying though, that if the guy maintaining the grapple uses agile maneuvers, it lowers his CMB as opposed to a guy who is strength based.
Yeah that might seem unfair. But then again, there are other grapple related things that are based on dex, such as escape artist and finessed attacks.
Either way would be fine I think, either have both creatures in the grapples subject to the -4, or disregard the -4 but only against each other. So long as its consistent it should be fine.
Why would you take Agile Maneuvers for grappling? That's completely illogical, it's meant to let high dexterity but low strength characters do things like Trip and Disarm effectively.
I realize it's a bit unorthodox, but I'm playing a halfling monk with high dex and wis. My plan was to grapple, pin, and then bind opponents using masterwork manacles, leaving them helpless and vulnerable to a coup de grace.
I thought I had the perfect build, with high AC, CMB, and CMD, until I realized that the grappled condition lowers dex. Still, with the +5 bonus for maintaining, the -2 isn't quite so bad. I'll see how it plays, regardless.
I realize it's a bit unorthodox, but I'm playing a halfling monk with high dex and wis. My plan was to grapple, pin, and then bind opponents using masterwork manacles, leaving them helpless and vulnerable to a coup de grace.
That's almost exactly what I was doing with my character (although in my case it was a human fighter hog-tying enemies with rope). Worked out fine, although that might have been because we fought mostly humanoid enemies (i.e. fairly low HD and Str/Dex scores).
One twist you should look into, and then consider very carefully.
If you use *reduce person*, as a halfling, you not only get +2 dex, but you get to use 2x dex rather than your STRENGTH and dex.
This sounds very intriguing, but I don't know what you mean. Can you clarify?
I think he meant your CMD.
About the fact that the Dex-based grappler loses efficiency when grappling, you can see it that way: your character is nimble and can run circles around foes. He can snatch their limbs and begin a grapple easily. However, he lacks the strength to actually keep the grappled limbs together. Hence, -2.
Do you have access to 3.5 feats? I think some of them could help make your build more efficient. From the top of my head: Choke Hold and Earth's Embrace.
I think he meant your CMD.
About the fact that the Dex-based grappler loses efficiency when grappling, you can see it that way: your character is nimble and can run circles around foes. He can snatch their limbs and begin a grapple easily. However, he lacks the strength to actually keep the grappled limbs together. Hence, -2.
Do you have access to 3.5 feats? I think some of them could help make your build more efficient. From the top of my head: Choke Hold and Earth's Embrace.
I don't have the books and google doesn't seem familiar with them either. Can you explain what they do?
Why would you take Agile Maneuvers for grappling? That's completely illogical, it's meant to let high dexterity but low strength characters do things like Trip and Disarm effectively.
Weapon Finesse already applies to Disarm and Trip with Trip Weapons (and possibly Unarmed Strike Trips)
Agile Maneuvers if for everything else that ISN'T attack-subsitutable. (like Grapple)One twist you should look into, and then consider very carefully.
If you use *reduce person*, as a halfling, you not only get +2 dex, but you get to use 2x dex rather than your STRENGTH and dex.
This doesn't work how you think it does. Agile Maneuver only affects offense, not CMD.
CMD already includes STR+DEX and isn't modified, even if people usually express CMD as Touch AC + CMB.Honestly, I think Agile Maneuvers SHOULD prevent loss of DEX during Grappling, at least defensively to CMD if not CMB. As is, it just isn't very spectacular a feat since Weapon Finesse already does half of what it does, and any DEX-based character is probably already going to have Weapon Finesse. So if it's about the DIFFERENCE between it and Weapon Finesse, i.e. Grapple, Over-Run, Bull-Rush, why not be actually good at those things, which would involve at least partially countering the negatives of Grappled for DEX-based characters. I think losing some of your offensive DEX advantage once grappled but retaining it for CMD and for CMB checks to escape would make the Feat "work" much better at what is supposed to do. As is, investing in skills (Escape Artist/Acrobatics for Grapple/Over-Run) is going to be the generally better option for DEX-focused characters, especially with non-Full BAB, so Agile Maneuvers should REALLY be good at the stuff it's supposed to be good at. The Class Skill bonus for Escape Artist MORE than counters the DEX penalty while Grappled, so this should really be the reference for Agile Maneuvers.
Again, I didn't say anythng about agile maneuvers....
But that's the topic of the thread and the sub-text of everybody's posts here. No biggee, internet miscommunication next on the 10 O'Clock news... :-)
One twist you should look into, and then consider very carefully.
If you use *reduce person*, as a halfling, you not only get +2 dex, but you get to use 2x dex rather than your STRENGTH and dex.
I can't see where you get any "2x dex" for anything:
The provision you cited only REPLACES the STR provision of CMB with DEX, and does nothing about CMD which always uses STR + DEX.Let's look at the benefits of Reduce Person:
The target gains a +2 size bonus to Dexterity, a –2 size penalty to Strength (to a minimum of 1), and a +1 bonus on attack rolls and AC due to its reduced size.
Becoming Tiny's 'free Agile Maneuvers' doesn't have any effect if you already have Weapon Finesse (for "in place of an attack" maneuvers) or Agile Maneuvers, and most DEX-focused characters interested in combat will already have Weapon Finesse. If you already are using DEX, being Tiny via Reduce Person should give Finesse melee attacks +2 to-hit (+1 DEX + 1 Size), for CMB attacks using Finesse/Agile Maneuvers it is a wash (+1 DEX/ -1 Size), you gain +2 normal ACs but for CMD it is a net loss of -1 (+1 DEX, -1 STR, -1 Size).
As already mentioned here, the DEX penalty from being in a Grapple kind of makes depending on Agile Maneuvers (whether the Feat or the effect from being Tiny) for Grappling a bad idea (becoming Tiny and taking Size penalty to CMB/CMD on top just makes it worse), so basically no Small/DEX-focused (and especially lower BAB) character should plan on ENGAGING Grapples, but should just worry about the best way to get OUT of them, i.e. Escape Artist.
Turning Tiny is clearly a good idea just for normal melee (to-hit/ AC) for DEX-focused characters like Rogues, but I don't think it has some amazing benefit for maneuvers for those characters since either they already use their DEX for attack-substitutable maneuvers via Weapon Finesse (beyond which Reduce Person has zero effect, as shown above), or it would only help maneuvers that they should probably be doing a skill check for (with +3 class-skill bonus) rather than a CMB check reliant on BAB as well as the discussed factors (grapple vs. escape artist, over-run vs. tumble, bull-rush vs. trip w/ weapon finesse).
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And once you pin your opponent, you no longer have the grappled condition.
Eh? Yes you do, and in addition you lose your dex bonus to AC (and thus also to CMD).
If you're pinned you don't take the -4 dex penalty though, so if you're ever grappled yourself, best to let yourself get pinned and then try to escape as it will be easier :)
HEY... Isn`t thread necromancy an Evil act? ;-)
Anyways, I AGREE WITH YOU. I don`t think it`s bad that Dextrous Maneuvers exist to allow DEX-optimized characters to use that stat on all maneuvers, but that standard doesn`t need to be`it has to be 100% as good as STR-based maneuvers, at every single maneuver´.
It`s fine to say that STR-based chars will always be A LITTLE BIT BETTER at Grappling, just because that`s how Grapple works (you`re continually in contact once grappled, so some of the `quickness` of DEX is negated). As mentioned, DEX Grapplers are just as good as initiating a Grapple to begin with, it`s just they lose some of their advantage when in grapplinng contact with the target (of course, using DEX mod of +10 instead of +3, for example, they are still better off with the Feat).
BUT... like I said, the Feat COULD have been a BIT more balanced, NOT by making offensive DEX-based Grappling more effective (when already Grappled), but by making it`s DEFENSIVE usage a little bit better. DEX is ALREADY decently equipped to escape Grapples if you max out Escape Artist, so I feel like it`s silly to say somebody who invests in this Feat (to be the best low STR/high DEX Grappler it`s possible to be) should still consider that maxing Escape Artist to Escape Grapples is still better than using CMB to escape. Simply negating (or reducing) the DEX penalty to CMD and AC while Grappled, and not applying the penalty to CMB checks to Escape (this requires declaring an Escape before-hand, normally you declare after the check whether to Escape or Reverse) retains ALL of the `offensive` penalty (while in Grapple), while letting the DEX-based char be more competent at things they ALREADY COULD BE GOOD AT without any Feat investment (just skill investment in Escape Artist).
...I doubt such a minor tweak is on the cards though, and I don`t think the game is horribly broken without the change. Taking the Feat with Grapples in mind is still a valid option IMHO, it just never compares 100% to more STR based Grapplers (which is OK, as mentioned DEX is nice for ALOT of stuff that STR doesn`t apply to).